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EPISODE 16 You can be perfectly happy in your marriage and listen to this episode. Have you ever thought about being divorced? Don’t lie, we all have at some point! Even if just imagining a worst case scenario, everyone has thought about it. Divorce can be a really difficult process that can affect more people than just the couple involved. In this episode, we will discuss the reality of divorce, how to make it more manageable, how to find support and what practical steps to take for the best possible outcome. Elise is the founder of UNtied, the Thinking Woman’s Divorce Resource. When Elise first entered the separation process in 2010, she felt desperate to reach out to other women who’d been through it. A graduate of Columbia Journalism School, she worked in documentary film and later as a reporter/writer for magazines like New York and Gourmet, before launching UNtied in 2013. Her passion is to connect divorcing women to each other as well as to the most experienced and competent professionals in all fields related to their needs. Resources mentioned: untied.net elise@untied.net The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce: The 25 Year Landmark Study ACOD Don’t forget to follow us on @ItsNotACrisisPodcast on both Instagram and Facebook for more content and even drop us a DM to say hi. And remember: It’s not a crisis! EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Doryn Wallach: Welcome to It's Not a Crisis. I am your host, Doryn Wallach. I'm an entrepreneur, a mother of two, a wife, and a 40-something trying to figure out what is happening in this decade. Why is no one talking about it? I created this podcast to help women in the late thirties and forties to figure out what is going on in our mind, body, soul and life. We may laugh, we may cry, we may get frustrated, but most importantly, my goal is to make this next chapter of life positive. I'm also full of my own questions, and I'm here to go on this journey with you. So let's do it together. Welcome to episode 15 of It's Not a Crisis. I am your host, Doryn Wallach. I'm very happy to have you back again. Today, we are talking about five tips to consider when contemplating or going through divorce. I've had several women reach out to me, and we, unfortunately, are at the age where a lot of people are reevaluating marriage. I've had women reach out to me, and not just women that are going through divorce or have gone through divorce, but women that are contemplating the idea and afraid to take the steps or don't know exactly what to do. I don't know much about this topic besides the fact that my parents went through a messy divorce when I was nine. Unfortunately, I have some good friends that have gone through it and are going through it, so I've learned a little bit from listening to them. I've been married for 17 years, and we have a really wonderful relationship. We have an extraordinarily close friendship, but we've had bumps in our road, and most marriages do. I don't believe anyone who says that they don't. We've spent time working through them, it's always a work in progress, but we both couldn't imagine our lives without each other in them, and I think that that is what keeps us going. However, you are lying if you've been married over 15 years and you haven't thought about what life would look like divorced. There's always a thought in your head of what if, or what if they leave, what if I leave, or what would my life be like? So I think this episode pertains to everybody, I think it's information to know. You never know what's going to happen, even if you have the most wonderful marriage in the world. Today, my guest Elise Pettus is going to break down divorce with tips on the process in a way that's easy to understand whether you're going through it, about to go through it, have gone through it, or you're contemplating going through it. Elise founded Untied in 2013 after going through her own split and recognizing an enormous need for community and education among women who are facing divorce. A graduate of Brown University and Columbia Journalism School, she worked in documentary film before becoming a magazine reporter and writer for outlets like New York magazine, the New York Times Gourmet and others. Untied's mission has been to connect divorcing women with the most experienced and competent professionals, empower them with knowledge they need, and provide them with meaningful community support. Elise believes these are essential to navigate their split with confidence and start a great next chapter. That's all we talk about on this podcast. Now in its eighth year, Untied serves a growing number of members in the New York area and across the U.S. through workshops, panels, webinars and social events, and I thought it was so wonderful when I discovered Untied, so I really needed Elise on the show, and I'm so happy to have her here. Welcome to the show, Elise. Elise Pettus: Thank you, Doryn. So happy to be talking with you. Doryn Wallach: I am so happy that I connected with you. I think you are so perfect for this episode, so I can't wait to jump in and talk about it a little bit more. But I first want to ask you what made you start Untied? Elise Pettus: Well, I was facing a divorce in 2010, I had two smallish boys, and when I realized what I was entering into, and it wasn't my choice and it probably was several years in coming, but I thought, I can survive this if I could just talk to other women who have been through it, because I was the first person in my social circle to face it, and it felt incredibly isolating. The other thing I remember thinking was, I have such a steep learning curve here. I went to my first consultation with a fancy attorney, and I remember thinking I have five questions, but I think I'll only ask for three, because I don't want her to think I'm dumb. Now, I'm not a shy person and I have a pretty good education, I was a journalist, so I'm very accustomed to asking questions, but the fact that I thought that made me realize that so many of us, when we get into the divorce scenario, we're confronting things we've never done before, and it's overwhelming and we have no confidence in this zone because we've never done it. So I thought, if there could only be a way to both connect with other women who have been through it, who are going through it, who get where I'm at right now, and if there could only be a place where I could hear really smart, experienced professionals teach me what I need to know to get through the process. I put those two things together and created Untied because it seemed like something that should exist. Doryn Wallach: It's so wonderful. I mentioned in the beginning of the podcast that I'm a child of divorce, my parents divorced when I was nine, but I am also a 43-year-old women, I have friends who are going through divorces right now, are about to get divorced or just got divorced. This is the age my parents got divorced, so it's not uncommon; nowadays, obviously, it's a little bit more common than it was when I was younger. But I do think that a lot of my friends feel very isolated and they don't have that support so what you're doing is terrific. In fact, I sent it to a friend and she said, "Oh my God, I'm so happy to know about this, I didn't even know it existed." So thank you for providing this for women. Elise Pettus: That's great, I'm so glad. I'm so glad that, again, I'm always so gratified when people find it a welcoming idea. I don't know if as many men would be excited about sitting around a living room with a glass of wine talking about divorce issues. Doryn Wallach: They just wouldn't admit it. They probably would benefit from it, but would never admit that they needed it. Elise Pettus: Absolutely, absolutely. Because we're women, we have been, traditionally, for millennia, the ones to gather around the well and share notes and share suggestions and share what works, you know? Like, where are the good berries, back in prehistoric times. So I feel like that really helped women learn, was when they're in community. I think that really just bears out amongst the women that I see going through this process. Doryn Wallach: That's so wonderful, and such an empowering thing as well. My mother would've greatly benefited from something like this. I was telling her, she's actually here today, and I was telling her what I'm doing my podcast on. She goes, "Oh, that's wonderful. I wish I had that. I had very little support." With that being said, I have gotten more than one message from listeners who have said, can you do something on if you're contemplating divorce? I thought that was really interesting, and in my intro just now I said that if you've been married over 15 years and you have never once thought about divorce in your head, you're lying, because everyone has, you've thought about your partner leaving you and what do I do, or you've thought about it. And it's true, so I think this podcast will pertain to many different women. But I think I'd like to start with your advice, typically, to a woman that says, "I don't know, should I stay, should I go? I don't know, I'm scared, I'm not sure of what's ahead of me, what are my steps, what do I do?" Elise Pettus: And for so many of us, we live in that place of uncertainty for years. There are many people who live in that place of uncertainty for years. So I do have some suggestions to sort of help people work their way through that place, they may go either direction, but the first thing that I say to people who talk to me about the fact that they're considering divorce is I urge them to talk to a lawyer. And I know a lot of them are resistant, they think, oh, wait a second, if I talk to a lawyer, that means I'm getting divorced, I don't know. But here's why I think that is so important: because until you do, you really don't know what the picture might look like for you financially, or if you're a parent, in terms of your parenting life. So I feel like that is the first thing that you really want to do. I mean, more than even talk to your friends, just talk to an attorney who you can be super honest and upfront with about everything, which is very important, and then get a sense of what your options are. You're not pressed into making any decisions at that point whatsoever. The second thing I would say is get a grip on the finances. This should be all of us, as married or considering divorce. Doryn Wallach: Honestly, I think that's something every woman should do, regardless of wanting to get divorced or married. I actually have a podcast coming up on finances for women, so I just want to put that out there. Elise Pettus: That's so great. We all know that we should be on top of our money, but I have to say that, too often, it takes divorce being thrust upon you to make us actually do that. So I feel like anybody who's even considering it, and this may be obvious to them, because if you're thinking about divorce, you're thinking, how am I going to survive? How am I going to live? You may or may not be the breadwinner in your family, you may be a stay-at-home parent. Sometimes even the breadwinner isn't really on top of the finances. So as soon as you can, really start to watch, get a real grip on what you're spending, what your budget is, and that means down to the itty-bitty details. A lot of people end up ... if you have time to plan your so-called exist, you might start using budget tracking tools like Mint.com because it saves you a lot of work in the future. So you really want to get a grip on what you spend, then you want to know what you make, and I mean you as in you and your spouse, what your assets are, and what your debts are. All of that requires, I mean, depending on how conversant you are with those things before you're thinking about a divorce, it still requires some work. Certainly most of us don't know what we spend each month, so that's going to be important for you going forward in terms of really taking a cold, hard look on what your life might be like post-divorce or what you might require for maintenance if you've been a stay-at-home mom. Those are the most important things, and I would say that many of the women I see who are not the ones who deal with the finances, they've taken their hand off the wheel in that department because they're full-on with the kids. They may not even know what all the assets are. So in that case, they really need to look at the tax returns. Don't just sign the tax return, but take a look at it and there's a certain section where you really can zero in and, I think it's the schedule B in the 1099-C, where all the interests and dividend earnings are, because that can alert you to accounts they didn't know about. I feel like that's one of the big things to sort of get on top of. What are our assets, what is our income and where is our money? The other thing I think, in this same vein: if you have been a cardholder on your husband's credit card, which so many of us have, and so many of us didn't even know it. I was one of them. I was actually financing the credit card, but it was his credit card and I was an additional cardholder. That can be a problem. If you don't have a credit card in your own name, you need to get one. There are several reasons why this is a really important thing to have as you're preparing to get divorced. One, if, for some reason, your husband is the earner and he has the power to lock you out of finances, you have that credit card that you can draw on to pay an attorney fee, to pay a therapist or something on an emergency basis. The second reason you need a credit card in your name is because, going forward, you need your own credit history. What I advise somebody to do is to get a credit card in your own name while you're still married, and you can check off the box married income, which will boost your opportunity to get a credit card, and then have that card and pay it off, use it and pay it off, so that you have a credit history so you, going into your next chapter, have a better chance of being able to take on a mortgage, say, if you want to keep the house, better chance of being able to rent your own place, better chance of leasing a car. I mean, so many things require having a solid credit history, and so few of us who've been in long-term marriages are paying attention to that. So I would just say take a look at that again. Similarly, I would make sure you have an account that you can draw from, set up a checking account in your name. You can't take a huge chunk of funds from your joint account it's funded with, but you could start, little by little, putting money in there so that you have the means to hire an attorney in the beginning, even if, at the end of the day, if your husband is, let's say, an investment banker and makes all the money and you've been home, he will end up paying those attorney fees. It's really nice to be able to have some so-called rainy-day money in case you get into any kind of trouble or you want to make sure you get to talk to an attorney before alerting your spouse to the fact that you're starting to prepare for a divorce. Does that make sense? Doryn Wallach: Yes, that makes a lot of sense. So interesting and true. Speaking of attorneys, I remember when a friend of mine was contemplating divorce, she was told that she should go see all the best attorneys in the city, because then her husband wasn't allowed to use those attorneys. Elise Pettus: That's called conflicting out. Any attorney you visit and have a consult with cannot work with your spouse. Now, if you live in a tiny town and there's two or three great attorneys, you can pay consult fees and I guess you could do that, right? If you live in New York City or L.A. or whatever, it's not really practical to do that. And that's working it, perhaps you're married to somebody who's going to be an operator in that way, in which case you have to be more strategic. But generally, I would really advise you to look for attorneys that you really want to work with, and I have a lot to say about this because I've seen so many women going through this process, right? And some attorneys are just more litigious. There are many choices you can make these days, unlike when our parents got divorced. Mediation has become very, very robust in the last 10 to 20 years. In addition to mediation, mediation, for those who aren't familiar, is one attorney and both spouses in the room with that attorney working through negotiations, right? Now that sounds great to some people and sounds scary to others, but the thing that a mediator will do that a classic, traditional litigation lawyers really can't do is a mediator is going to be better able to work out an unusual, a tailored, very customized agreement. You're not getting handed down the law from the judge, you're not having a judge decide the details of your future. So if you can work with either a mediation attorney, which, as I said, is one attorney for the two of you, or there's a newer process that has really been around for maybe the last 15 years called collaborative law, and in collaborative law, you have an attorney for each of you, so it's definitely you have more advocacy than if you have one mediation attorney. And a collaborative attorney will work on your behalf, but they agree they're not going to to court. So again, you have the option, you have much more agency to work out kind of a more unusual or customized agreement than you would if you want through the mitigation attorneys and through the court system. Doryn Wallach: Three friends started with a mediator, and one was successful, a couple others were not, unfortunately, and they had to go to lawyers. So I love the idea of that, but it doesn't always work, right? Elise Pettus: You're so right. It doesn't always work, but I do have a couple of tips just to sort of make the chances, give you better chances for it being successful, and one of them is to have an outside attorney consulting with you as you go through that process. Good mediators will highly recommend you have that person, because you have an advocate outside the room who really can sort of help you find your way through these negotiations and give you a real sense of what's the spectrum here of what I could expect, given this much income, this number of kids, you know? You'll have a much better grip on what you're going after when you go into the mediation room, but again, that consulting attorney is not going to charge you the enormous retainer fee that they would ... lawyer, but they're working with you in a different capacity. So that's one tip that I think can be very helpful. The other tip that I think can be very helpful is to have, if you're not financially savvy, is to have an outside financial advisor helping you, because sometimes what happens with mediation is that you spend a lot of time in mediation meetings, and you come up with an agreement, and then sometimes the mediator says, well, show this to an attorney, and you do, and the attorney's like, what?! Or you show it to a financial advisor at the end and your advisor's like, what?! So I would say that those two things can really make a difference. Some people would say, you know, a divorce coach can be super helpful because they have an antenna out for certain issues. And I'm not saying that mediation is going to work for everyone, and even when it doesn't, sometimes, and I don't know if this happened with your friend, but sometimes working through mediation can help you at least come to agreement in some arenas. So let's say you're in mediation, you can solve the money part, but you can't solve the kid piece, or you can solve the kid schedule and the sharing of the visitation, but you can't solve the money piece. And that alone can also, that can save you money when you do finally get into the litigation system and the court system, right? The other reason, again, to start with mediation is because, right now, I don't know how long this will last for, but during COVID the courts were closed for a good five months in most states, so they are so backed up right now that it is prolonging hugely a lot of processes that have been started in the courts. So it stands to reason that mediation, you can pick it up at any time, you can start it at any time, you can do it from home, you can mediate just part of your settlement, your agreement, so that you have, you're narrowing the scope. Maybe that's adjusting your expectations for mediation and also just bolstering yourself on the outside. Those are the two ways, I think, of maximizing possibility for success. If you're a marriage where the balance of power is really out of whack, like either your spouse is making all the money and he's very controlling, he could be bullying, he could be abusive, he could be even violent, all of those scenarios, those make mediation very difficult. So in those scenarios, I don't think that mediation would be a first choice. I do think that you can still work around it if you have a really great mediator and if you have a really great consulting attorney, and sometimes, by the way, a good mediator will invite the separate attorneys into the room because they know how to work with those attorneys or know how to include your financial advisor in the room. So if you feel very small around the money piece and very, very wobbly and worried, you could still try to mediate by having a financial advisor who can advocate for you and who can figure out the numbers and make sure that your back is covered on that. Doryn Wallach: That's wonderful. I don't know if this is a New York City thing, living here. In a lot of my friends' experiences, it seems to me the lawyers are making the divorce so much worse. It starts one way and then it just gets so awful and mean. Friends who have said I never thought my husband would be doing this, and a lot of times you know it's the lawyer speaking. It's really unfortunate, and it's really tough on the kids, too. Elise Pettus: You are so right, and I know a lot of lawyers at this point; my own attorney was a ligation attorney, and I loved her. But she had been a traditional litigation divorce attorney her whole life, right? And this is something that I really learned as an observer, it was almost like that litigation was in her DNA at that point, so she would, instead of tamping things down sometimes, she would inflame them. I remember thinking, I know she doesn't know that she's really making this worse for me, but she is, and it's making all the problems bigger. And I think that it is part of just the nature of litigation. They want to win-win-win-win, and they're going to do the tactics. Which is why, by the way, so many attorneys who used to work in litigation have bailed for either a mediation model or a collaborative, because the idea, and again, it's not perfect and you need to put some extra muscle around it, and you need to do your work in both of those methods, collaborative and mediation. However, it is aimed at ... the process harmonious as possible, getting you to settle, as opposed to screwing the other guy. It's a different mindset. And the other reason to consider it too is that this whole scorched-earth kind of back-and-forth is going to make it near impossible to co-parent with the other spouse after the process is finished. It's going to leave literal scorched earth ... so again, the mediation model is about making sure, trying to protect your ongoing co-parenting relationship. Doryn Wallach: I would love that for everybody. I think once I gets to this point with the lawyers and the this and then that, there's so much animosity between the couple at that point, which then affects the children. They feel it, whether they're hearing it from their parents or not. When I was a kid, my parents did not hold back anything in front of me from talking about the divorce. I knew more stuff than any child should've ever known. When I was talking about this last night with my mom, I said, Mom ... she's like, "Well, I think people really need to think about divorce, because it affects the children so much." And I said, "Mom, your divorce wouldn't have affected me as much as it did. The way you two handled your divorce is what affected me, and the way that I was involved in your divorce is what affected me." I think it's a good point that if you are somehow able, and I know it's hard, because I see it over and over again, but if you are able to do it in a way that's amicable or somewhat more calm, it certainly is going to benefit your children. So I think these tips are really interesting things that I never knew. Elise Pettus: There's another point that I guess I want to bring up about ... that directly relates to this. I spend a lot of time helping both moms and dads, doing events for both of them together, about how to be a co-parent. And most of it involves reminding people again and again: don't expose your kids to conflict and don't ever bad-talk the other parent. And studies have shown that it's not actual divorce that really damages kids, it's the conflict that they're exposed to. So to that end, one of the other big tips that I would have for anybody considering divorce is to make sure they have a team. Ideally, a team of three. And it could be either a combination like your attorney, either collaborative or litigation attorney, your sister who's got your back, and a therapist. Or it could be, if you're in a mediation, it could be a divorce coach, your therapist and your friend. But the idea here is not only are you getting some help on the practical stuff, somebody's got your back, but also the emotional overwhelm. You do not want to ... bubbling over with rage when you're with your kids, even if you have super-young kids and they're not understanding. Even pre-verbal, they pick up your energy. So you need to make sure you've got a team before you really get into this process so that you don't end up being the toxic parent to your kids. Doryn Wallach: And I would say that team should obviously know ... I think that's really smart, as opposed to a friend who may not get it and may not be as supportive. Not that a friend doesn't want to help, but I can't even imagine how hard, especially for some of my friends, how hard it is to pretend like they're okay going through this. So I knew that my mom probably should have done that. However, even us women that are married, when our husband does something to bother us or piss us off, we'll find ourselves bitching about it in front of our kids and go, okay, no, stop. Don't involve them. Elise Pettus: It's almost like you need to have a hotline for that friend that you can vent to. We do that on our Facebook group, yes. "He just said this thing and I can't believe it!" Doryn Wallach: But even having a person, having a way to match up women with other women that they can text or reach out to when they're just having a moment would be great. Elise Pettus: Absolutely. What ends up happening, and this is one of the things that I think I have enjoyed the most about this, about running Untied, is that even from the very first gathering we had, which was in 2013, and I didn't know anybody directly and I had asked friends, I was like, if you know anybody who's getting ... women who are contemplating divorce or getting divorced, can you give me their email? And so 17 women show up, I'd never met them before, but we all knew somebody in common. They didn't know each other. Actually, some of them were like, oh, yes, you and I have a third-grader, same class or something. But they bonded and became friends, and so many women in the room have become besties and go on trips together. It's been so gratifying to see that, you know? They've helped each other through the process in the most beautiful ways, because I feel like there's a huge difference. Your friends will feel bad, but they also feel a little bit terrified, your married friends. It's so unfathomable and it is frightening to them. There's a tendency, among some people when they're going through divorce, like, oh, they're worried I'm going to steal their husband. I don't think it's that bald, it's just it is so threatening, you know? It's threatening in a very primal way. Doryn Wallach: My mom used to say that. She wanted to move to city, because she said every woman in the neighborhood in our suburb thinks that I'm trying to steal their husband by having a conversation. Elise Pettus: I was there, and I wouldn't ... it's hard to describe this, but I remember thinking that I didn't know anybody who had gone through a divorce, right? And what I realized two years after my divorce is that I did know them, but I had sort of disappeared them in my mind. Isn't that weird? That's why I think it's a waste of time to sort of be blaming, but I think it's a biological survival thing, and I've also had friends who said, oh, my husband's been hanging out with two of our best women friends who are getting divorced, and it's really making me uneasy because he suddenly now wants to have an open marriage. I mean, I get why it's threatening, you know what I mean? So for that reason, I feel like you need a social network, and it's so helpful to have a social network that you can open up to about those things. The other thing I love about Untied and the community is that they're never pretending, nobody's ever pretending everything's great or being fake in any way. It's not like everybody's constantly having breakdowns, but there's a shared sense of humor, even, dark humor sometimes, and the conversations are so real and so vital and kind of refreshing, in a weird way. I do think that having other people who get where you're coming from and get what you're going through is hugely valuable. Doryn Wallach: How would you suggest somebody who might want to meet a friend locally that is also divorced in person? I would think that it would feel better to know that you have that one person that can understand or that you can do things with your kids or whatever it is together. How would you suggest that begins? It's almost like dating. Elise Pettus: Well, it is a little bit. During non-COVID times we had these events, and sometimes 25 women gather in the space and can meet. We have workshops where there's more, a little bit more vulnerable, emotional material sharing, and they really get to bond. I'm trying to create the same sort of thing online, because A, it's COVID and we have to do everything online, and B, a lot of women have been calling me from places like Ohio. "Is there something like what you have around here?" And I have looked and I haven't found those other groups. I think there's one that was started up in Darien, Connecticut recently, I talked to a woman who was starting up a group. But it's really a helpful, wonderful thing, and I think ... actually, I will say, if you're in a community outside of New York City, sometimes there are online mommy groups or parenting groups that might have a sub-section. I know in Park Slope Parents, there's a very vital single/divorced/separated parent group in that, and they have meetups and it's fantastic. Some people start meetups, although then you're really kind of casting to the wind, like help, anybody! But that's what I would say, it's hard. That's why I started Untie, because I found it very difficult to find like-minded souls who wanted to kind of connect not just around venting, but around moving forward. Doryn Wallach: Well, that's what I was going to say, because I don't want anyone to be turned off by this in the way that ... I don't need to sit and listen to a bunch of women bitching all day long. Elise Pettus: Totally. Exactly. In the beginning, I thought, well, I'm just going to have practical events that tackle practical issues, I'm not going to get into the emotional world of this, I'm just going to provide, here are three different attorneys, they all work differently, come hear what they have to say. If you like some, you can meet with them afterwards or whatever. And then after maybe a year or two, a friend and colleague started this workshop called Grief and Gratitude, and she started as a layperson ... she's also a journalist like me, but she started it because she wanted connection with people and she created this little workshop that we started offering and have been offering for the last six years, I guess. I can't even call it a support group, but it involves sharing around structured writing and reflection in a way that it doesn't end up being that spiraling southward sort of thing that we all don't want to be part of it. The people who have come to our meetings and gatherings share an outlook, which is like, I want to tackle this thing. I am going to roll up my sleeves, I'm going to learn, it's going to be hard, I know, but I want to be present for it and I want to figure things out. And I think that's a really valuable outlook to have, because those women I see, they're really resilient, you know? I don't see as many who are like, I don't want anybody to know, I'm going to stay in my house, I don't want to meet anybody else, I just don't want to talk about it, I want to pretend it's not happening or whatever. I have a few friends, actually, who have gone through divorce ... kind of held onto it and had a hard time relinquishing bitterness and starting a great new chapter. I feel like it's holding them back a little bit. Doryn Wallach: Yeah, definitely. Oh boy, I could talk about that for my mother, sorry, Mom, but it's true. Elise Pettus: It so saddens me, though, because I've seen so many women who would, say, come to one of these workshops and start with my life is over, I thought my life was over, and now, three, four years later, like, could not be happier that they split. Doryn Wallach: You had written me a little bit about that, and I actually want to get to that in a minute, but I had reached out to my listeners to ask if they had any questions about divorce. I thought this was interesting from somebody, if you don't mind me reading it. She said, "I am 40, no kids planned and freshly divorced. I find that people say congratulations when I tell them the news. 'You didn't want kids anyway,' like if I didn't want to be a mom I should just be a spinster? Lack of better term, I hate that word. Marriage is not a conduit for spitting out kids, yet it's something that can happen while being married, but it can happen at any time or not at all for many reasons. Our society is still in the Dark Ages, it makes me kind of sad because I feel like if you are of an age, you're married or not, which means you're in or you're out. "I miss my companionship with my ex, but we both understand that we're not meant to be married to each other. We're amicable. Explaining this to anyone is almost impossible; throw the kid thing on top and I'm like an alien creature." Elise Pettus: That's interesting. Doryn Wallach: It is interesting, because I think getting ... we all think about getting divorced means you have kids and you're dealing with that. Elise Pettus: Yeah. Not always, though. Doryn Wallach: No, no, not always. Elise Pettus: Obviously, yeah. Doryn Wallach: Obviously. That's a whole other podcast, by the way, and thank you for that question. I am going to have a podcast where we're going to talk about women and children, because the fact that women are made to feel a certain way because they choose not to have children is not okay, and I really hope that that's changing with the new generation. I actually think it is, because it's not for everybody. Elise Pettus: It isn't for everybody, and it's funny, I was just speaking with Meghan Daum, who is an essayist and author who wrote beautifully, she wrote a beautiful essay for the New Yorker about divorcing and not wanting kids, and also the process of going through a divorce. And she's a great spokesman for that. I would say that the kid piece does one thing usually: it keeps us in marriages past the time we know we should leave. So in other words, it's not easy to get divorced ever, but it's harder when you have kids. And so I feel like those marriages tend to go on a lot longer in maybe a bad place, even though, of course, we are staying together for the kids. But I think it's harder, and I think especially for women. Even with women who are falling in love with somebody else, say, they're still, I find, less ready to divorce if they have kids. It's almost like, you know, we are the tenders of the nest, for the most part. Not always, but we are the tenders of the nest, and so we don't want to upset that nest. We're ready to stay on the nest. And sometimes, I know plenty of women who were in miserable marriages and not even able to admit it to themselves because they were so busy taking care of the nest, and then the husband leaves and they think, oh my God, I'm a victim, I'm a victim. And then it's like, through reflection they realize, oh, wait a second, thank you, husband. I know this is a bad marriage, and I now feel like I can have freedom to live the life that I'd be happier in. I know that's a lot, but I think if you have no kids, it's easier for you to get there. I feel like the kids just make it ... first of all, to be honest, kids put a lot more pressure on a marriage. And yet it's also harder to leave, to break up the nest because of them. Doryn Wallach: Right. Which doesn't negate what this woman is saying, which I understand is a feeling like, I'm not married and I don't have kids, and I'm just a nobody. We should not make women feel that way. I've said to friends before who are thinking about it, they're like, it's the kids, though, it's the kids. I can't ... but I said, "Your kids can feel the tension in your marriage, they hear you fighting, they know you're not happy." And often, I've seen it happen many times, once they're through the divorce, the kids, there's just a weight lifted off of them and they're very happy. So a lot of women do that, or they wait until their kids go to college. And I have a friend whose parents got divorced when she went to college, and that almost affected her more because she was like, my whole life was a lie. My parents were never happy, they were just waiting until I left. And that actually caused her more damage, I think- Elise Pettus: Well, first of all, yes. There's a lot of conversation right now amongst therapists who work with divorcing couples about that idea that if you wait till your kids go to college, it does make them feel exactly that, like, oh, my life was a lie? This was all just fake? And that leaves them super ungrounded, especially at an age where they're starting relationships. My parents got divorced when I was five, and as far as I'm concerned, it was kind of great because I didn't have a lot of parent-together time to mourn or grieve. It was like, oh, we just go to Dad's house on these days, you know? That's just how it is. As we work up from being little, the teenage years, there's going to be rage. There is going to be some rage, but if it's really tense, there's also relief. There's really no ideal time, but I do sort of want people to think carefully when they're adamant to themselves, like, we're going to wait till the kids are in college. Who is that really serving? I think it takes some real work with a therapist to be honest with yourself. Is this really helping them? Is it really modeling family that's helping them grow up and have their own relationships? Doryn Wallach: Have you ever seen the movie ACOD? Elise Pettus: No, I haven't. Doryn Wallach: Oh my gosh. You must. I saw it at a film festival, it's actually a great movie. ACOD is Adult Children of Divorce. There are real people integrated into the movie, and they talk to them about their relationships as adults, but it all, there's a lot of psychological parts of it that relate back to their parents' divorce. And it's humorous, it's funny, it's a great movie. It did not get recognized as well as it should have, but I would actually recommend it to anybody, it's called ACOD. Elise Pettus: I'm so looking it up, I can't wait. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. It was a great movie. I related to it so much, especially in the end, I think it was in the end, the different men and women were talking about issues they have in their current relationships because of their parents getting divorced, and I think that that topic has always fascinated me. I don't think I was told enough or worked with enough when I was a child to really understand how that was going to affect my adult years, and I think it's a lot easier than we think, but we need to have the support to do that, and I think if it goes unspoken, I think a lot of kids ... when my parents got divorced, it was like, here's a therapist. I remember the therapist would just shake their head. I used to call him the Head-Shaker, he didn't talk, he didn't give me advice. And I'd say to my mom, "This is so stupid, this is not doing anything." As an adult, I've done a lot of work based on my parents' divorce, and not because they, again I mention this, not because they got divorced, but because of how they handled the divorce and how that has affected me as an adult. I think if the parents can't be amicable in front of the kids, and hopefully we have professionals that are trained to work the kids so that they don't bring these issues with them on as they get older, and they're not 43 years old when they're starting to work on it. So that movie was very inspiring, and there are a couple other books also; there's a woman who did a study of children, I don't know if you've heard of this. If I think of it, I'll put it in my show notes. But she did a study of children, I think, starting in the '80s or '70s whose parents got divorced- Elise Pettus: I do know the book you're talking about [crosstalk 00:43:16]. Doryn Wallach: And she followed them through adulthood. That was so interesting, too. But anyway, the last part of this that I want to touch on is, I'm all about, in my podcast, that we're doing work, but we're also looking at a positive future. So you had said to me in an email that you shouldn't think of divorce as a failure. Talk a little bit about how it gets better. Elise Pettus: I love this topic, I really do. I think that if we are in marriages that are not working, that it takes a great deal of strength to leave those marriages. And when you're on the outside of a marriage, a bad marriage, you're feeling so much better, but you also know a lot of people who are in unhappy marriages. So I feel like this idea of divorce as failure is almost like a conspiracy brainwashing thing to keep people in bad marriages. Like, oh God, her marriage failed, what a loser, kind of thing. That's just such B.S. because it's hard to get out of a marriage, it takes a certain amount of personal reflection and struggle and being frank with yourself and strength. And I'm telling you, when you get to that place on the outside, I mean, it is hard and there is grief, even if you're relieved not to be living with your spouse, it is certainly ... there's some grief around losing the dream of the perfect family or whatever it was. However, once you're able to give that up, it's like you are discovering whole new rooms in yourself. You are suddenly given full agency over your life again. What is it you want your life to be like? You get to decide, and it's intoxicating to many of us. I think that there's just this opportunity, suddenly, to not only deepen friendships but also do the things that you really love and care about, spend time with yourself, and now we're at a different point in our lives than we were when we were 20, right? We're somewhat driven, perhaps, by the need to have kids, the need to have kids. And again, that's another primal thing that can push us into marriages. And now, at age 40 or 45 or 50, and I'm 57 now, we are at a place where we aren't driven by that. We can choose [inaudible 00:45:39] now, what kind of person do I want to be with? There's just a whole lot of upside after divorce, if you come through it in a way that doesn't destroy you. I guess Untied is about helping you through this process and laying the groundwork for your having a really great, nourishing life afterward. Doryn Wallach: That's so good to hear, and I think a lot of women need to hear that. Honestly, in my friends, I see something coming out of them, not immediately, but I just see a lightness to them. It's really wonderful to see when you've known them in both directions. Elise Pettus: Yeah, we have a lot of women who have gone through the process who come back to events. We have social events, and they come back because they want to share, A, that they're still standing, and this is what I needed when I was going through a divorce. They want to share that they're still standing and their lives are great, they're happy. They are light, they are able to appreciate the present and where they're at. They are experiencing a lot of joy. So I think, yeah, I think it's a journey and it's not an easy journey by any stretch, but I feel like it's impossible to go through a divorce without getting to know yourself a lot better, right? And what you care about, because you really have to confront that when you're splitting up. Just that discovery alone is really valuable. Doryn Wallach: Trying to do that in marriage is really hard, trying to figure out who you are when you're married is difficult. I understand that notion. Sometimes I'm like, I just want to escape for a month somewhere so I can just figure out who the hell I am right now and what do I want? Well, this has been so, so wonderful. Can you please tell the listeners where to find you? Elise Pettus: Our website is www.Untied.net, we have not too much newsletter, but we have an events calendar and you'll get invites to events that we're hosting online through the year, any workshops that we're holding, you'll find out about those through that. You can also just email me directly at Elise@Untied.net. I'm happy to reply to any emails, even with specific questions, if I can be helpful. Doryn Wallach: Thank you for that. I hope this was helpful for you, my listeners. When I started out speaking about this, I said I think every woman should listen to this because I think you never know what position you're going to be in, so you gave such a great amount of information and I thank you very much for coming on the show. I'm sure there will be follow-up questions. If you have any questions, also as a follow-up to the show, please email me. If you liked the show, email me and don't forget to rate, subscribe and review. And that is it for today. Elise, thanks again. Elise Pettus: Thank you, Doryn. Doryn Wallach: Thank you again, and until next time. Thank you so much for listening. Remember to give yourself permission and know that you are not alone. Don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any episodes. Reviews are always appreciated, and you can reach me by email at ItsNotaCrisis@gmail, Instagram It's Not a Crisis podcast, and please join our Facebook group as well. Until next time, just remember: it's not a crisis.

EPISODE 15 This is the first episode of a larger series called “Wise Women Over 50”, where we’ll be joined by dynamic women who have successfully navigated the midlife transition and have come out stronger and wiser. They will be sharing their experiences, their knowledge, their ups and downs and the POSITIVE outcomes of their lives. What better way to kick of the series, then with Doryn's mother, Arlene. This is without a doubt the funniest episode we’ve had so far. Arlene is an amazing woman, very youthful, open-minded and she’s sharing with us some of her life experiences including going through a divorce, perimenopause, dating in her 40’s and much more. We really hope this episode will bring a smile on your face and even help you through whatever season you’re in right now. Check out the Instagram Page Doryn has created for her mom: https://www.instagram.com/mymomarlene/ EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Doryn Wallach: Welcome to It's Not a Crisis, I am your host, Doryn Wallach. I'm an entrepreneur, a mother of two, a wife and a 40-something trying to figure out what is happening in this decade. Why is no one talking about it? I created this podcast to help women in their late 30s and 40s to figure out what is going on in our mind, body, soul and life. We may laugh, we may cry, we may get frustrated. But most importantly, my goal is to make this next chapter of life positive. I'm also full of my own questions, and I'm here to go on this journey with you. So, let's do it together. Welcome to episode 15 of It's Not a Crisis, I am your host Doryn Wallach and today I have a very special guest with me, my mom. She's rolling her eyes at me. My mom is obviously very special to me, but I love to share her with the world. Because pretty much everyone that she meets falls in love with her. Not all of the time, but most of the time. Arlene: Except my first husband. Doryn Wallach: Right. She has a flair about her, a kindness that's infectious and brings light into a dull room. I constantly had friends as a child who wanted to come hang out with my mom and it made me jealous, but I totally get it now. You were fun, people just wanted to be around you. There were times as a child that maybe I didn't appreciate her individuality, such as showing up at school pick up in her Jaguar with matching parachute pants, custom sweatshirts, matching Reeboks and gold armband, oh and matching headbands. Every other mother in my own of Wellesley, Mass, where they were wearing sweater sets and pearls in their station wagons. My mom would also get dressed up for charity events a lot, and I would sit on the floor and just watch her and think about how beautiful she was and glamorous. We had this beautiful stairs in our home and she would walk down the stairs ready to go out for an event. And I can just remember being like, "Wow, that's my mom." As glamorous as she is, I will never, ever be as glamorous because I don't care as much. But the most important thing that my mother taught me at a young age was to be me. Because my mom has always been who she is. She doesn't care what others think about her. She has her own style, she has her own opinions, she has her own way of doing things, her own way of talking to people. And as a young child, what better lesson than to learn that from your mother? One of the things I love is that my mom sort of always had this mentality, and I kind of do too, that if you don't like me, that's fine. I'm not for everyone. I'm a lot like that in a lot of ways. My friends last night were telling me that I got my sense of humor from my mom, which I was like, "Really? I didn't know, oh, that's good." I didn't know I was funny. My dad is also very funny. Anyway, I started an Instagram handle for my mom and she hates it, she's so embarrassed by it. But I started it randomly because I just wanted to document all the funny moments of my mom and just let the world see her too and love her as much as I love her. It's called My Mom Arlene. I don't update it often, but the engagement is so amazing. People love seeing the pictures and I love getting the comments and it's ... When I have time to have a picture, it has to be something worth posting, I put it up there. And it just always puts a huge smile on my face. So, I thought, "Well, we need to bring her live." So that not only my podcast followers, but the My Mom Arlene followers can hear some things. This also, I want to mention, is starting a series that I'm beginning. It's called Wise Women Over 50. And my mom is the very first one that I'm interviewing for this, but I have some other amazing women that I'm going to be doing this with too. This is episode one, or I guess series one or the first series of Wise Women Over 50. The most important lesson my mom taught me was to be a kind person, ask how people are, and really listen and be a good friend, give back to those in need, be independent, be competent. My mom would pull over the car as a child and I would roll my eyes and she would make me stop and get out of the car and listen to the sound of the birds or smell the fresh air and just take in life's little beautiful moments. I'll always remember that. And by the way, I try that with my kids and they're like, "No, I don't want to get out of the car." And I actually appreciated it, even if I rolled my eyes, I actually really did. And there's so many other things that I'm forgetting, so without further adieu, mom, say hello to my audience. Arlene: Hello. Doryn Wallach: There is no structure to this podcast, so we don't know where it's going to go. It'll be an interesting one. I think the first thing we're going to begin with before we get to your wisdom. Arlene: Oh, yes. Doryn Wallach: Tell us a little bit about where you grew up, your siblings, talk a little bit about your childhood. Arlene: Not in detail though, right? Doryn Wallach: Maybe not in all details. Arlene: Okay. Yeah. I grew up in Newton, Massachusetts, about 15, 20 minutes outside of Boston as a child in the '50s. When I look at it now, I think it was an absolute utopia that I grew up in. It was so the way you see in the movie in the 1950s. I just feel badly that my children never got the experience the same thing. Times are so different now. I had two older brothers, I was the only girl and the youngest, Mark and Larry. My middle brother died at 50, unfortunately. He was the one I was very close with, and my mom and dad. My dad worked a lot, my mother was very unusual. She was very unusual. She was about 5'8". In the '30s and '40s and '50s she did yoga five days a week. I was embarrassed to tell anyone she did yoga because no one even know what yoga was at that time. I used to sit on the floor while she went to the acupuncturist once a week. She believed in the paranormal, so we used to go into Boston very frequently and meet with warlocks and mediums and mirror readers. Doryn Wallach: How old were you? Arlene: When I started doing that? Doryn Wallach: Yeah. Arlene: 10. Doryn Wallach: That's normal. Arlene: I thought it was normal. I actually thought it was normal. Doryn Wallach: What else? Arlene: Oh, and she always loved to have her clothes made. Growing up, she and her mother, my grandmother, I used to always be with them all the time, we spent lots of time together. We'd go into Boston and we'd go to my grandmother's favorite dress maker. They would pick out fabrics and they would design with the designer their gowns for different events. I just loved it. I used to sit on the floor and imagine that one day I would be able to do that. I just thought it was very glamorous. Doryn Wallach: I have to say this, it's not because I'm her daughter, my mom chose to be a stay at home mom for most of her life and did a lot of charity work. But she is insanely talented at dress design. She used to design hats, you've designed interiors, you've designed jewelry, which is one of the reasons I learned how to design jewelry. Extraordinarily talented. Had you done any of those professionally, there's no doubt in my mind you would've been extraordinarily successful. Arlene: Thank you, honey. Doryn Wallach: You obviously learned that from your mother. Arlene: Yeah. Yeah, and I remembered a lot of things that my grandmother mostly, taught me about design. I really did. We're at a different time when I got married. I was married at 20, in 1967. And at that time, it was the beginning of the social revolution. But most of the women I knew wanted to stay home and have babies, that was our goal, which I cringe about now because I can't believe all I wanted to do was do that. And I did it very happily, but there was so many other- Doryn Wallach: But were you really happy? Arlene: Yeah. Doryn Wallach: Oh, that's nice. Arlene: I was. I really was. Doryn Wallach: That's good. Arlene: But later in life, like everything, you look back and I say to myself, "God I could've done something a little more artistic. I could've maybe designed clothes, I could've been an interior designer." I did work for an interior designer, but it's not the same. There were things I could've done with my life even later, but I just never did. I feel badly about that. But there wasn't the push for women to do that as much as now. It wasn't embarrassing if you didn't have a career. My son once said on the bus everyone was telling what their mothers did for a living and he said, "Oh my God, what am I going to say? Oh my God." So, I said, "Tell them I'm a nuclear scientist." And he was very young and he didn't really understand how moronic that would sound. So, he said, "My mommy's a nuclear scientist." Doryn Wallach: Yeah, I guess I've never heard that story. Arlene: Oh yeah. Yeah. I don't think David knew what he was talking about, but he was embarrassed that I didn't have a career. And of course now I feel badly thinking back on it. But what can I do? It was a different time. I'm sure- Doryn Wallach: Well, you shouldn't feel badly. You were- Arlene: I do. Doryn Wallach: ... a mom, a stay at home mom, which is one of the hardest jobs. I've done both and it's much harder in my opinion than going to a job every day. Arlene: Oh, I understand. But there's other areas of my life I would've been fulfilled in, had I done those things. But it was never encouraged, never. Doryn Wallach: And today, women feel that they have to do both. Arlene: I know, which is impossible. Doryn Wallach: It's impossible to do both. Arlene: I agree. Doryn Wallach: Yeah, it's really unfair. So, my daughter is 13 and she definitely thinks I'm embarrassing. But my mom was embarrassing, yes, but really immature in many ways. For example, I can remember we went to a hotel once in San Francisco and my mom was walking around changing everybody's do not disturb to please make up the room, switching people's shoes that were to be polished in different areas. And then I think, I'm almost positive you bought water balloons and threw them over the balcony. Arlene: No, they were just regular balloons. Doryn Wallach: Oh, they were just regular balloons. Arlene: That I filled with water. Doryn Wallach: I was mortified, and I was nine. Arlene: I cannot believe I did that. Doryn Wallach: Or we would go to a restaurant and she would unscrew the salt and I'd be like, "Mommy, what are you doing?" And she'd say, "Well, it's going to be funny because the next person who comes, they're going to pour the salt on and all the salt's going to fall out on their plate. It'll be so funny." And I'd be like, "Mommy ..." I was a little bit of a rule follower. I'm like, "You can't do that." I was like, "That's not okay." And she'd be like, "Oh stop, Doryn." You used to call me square. "You're so square." Or the time we drove by the Ritz Carlton in Boston on Newbury Street, I grew up outside of Boston, I was with a friend of mine and my mom said, "Watch this, watch this." And she opened the window, and she said to the valet or whatever, she said, "Oh sir, I'm looking for directions on how to get somewhere." And she reached out while he was speaking and took his hat, threw it in the car, and was like, "Go, go, go!" And she just starts going and driving down the street. Arlene: It was this high with a feather. Doryn Wallach: Yeah, it had a huge feather on it. I mean, it's amazing that I was a relatively normal teenager. Arlene: Oh, very normal. Doryn Wallach: I think I was mortified. Arlene: No, I'm not proud of it. Actually at my age now, when you tell me these stories I absolutely cringe. And I said, "Oh my God, I was so crazy when I was young." I wasn't young, I was in my 40s. Doryn Wallach: You weren't that young. Arlene: I was 12 at the time, but I was in my 40s and a mother of two. I can't believe I did those things. I don't know what- Doryn Wallach: Why did you do those things? Arlene: Because it was funny. Doryn Wallach: You were having fun. Arlene: But as a teenager I did things like- Doryn Wallach: You were always- Arlene: I'm not proud of it, but I did. Doryn Wallach: No. But I mean, imagine growing up, it was interesting. But my mom's always been very adventurous and spontaneous and immature. When I was talking to a few of my childhood friends last night they also said you get your adventure and spontaneity from your mom. You were always up for something. I don't know, we'd randomly go do things together. I can't even think of anything specifically. But the other thing is, mom has this amazing sense of style, gorgeous sense, and it's her own style, it's nobody's style. I appreciate that so much. Arlene: Because nobody else wants it, that's why it's only my style, no one wants it. Doryn Wallach: But she, from the time I can remember, she would walk down the street with me and people would either stop her and say how fabulous she looked or they would look at her or stare at her. And sometimes I didn't know if they were staring at her in a negative way or- Arlene: Boston's very conservative. Doryn Wallach: Yeah, Boston is very conservative, so you definitely stuck out. Arlene: I mean, I didn't wear gold and things like that. Doryn Wallach: No, she was ... just really fashionable, amazing taste. Arlene: But honey, if you dress any way ... if you deviate from the norm at all in Boston, the Boston I grew up in, everybody stared at you. Doryn Wallach: In every capacity, by the way, it's not just in clothes. Arlene: No, but it's true. I don't know if it's still like that. Doryn Wallach: I don't know, it was like that when I- Arlene: But it used to be. I literally was the only person in my entire family that wore any makeup whatsoever, it's the truth. Doryn Wallach: Really? Arlene: Not one person. Doryn Wallach: And it's so good that you don't wear any now. Arlene: Oh, yeah, I don't believe in it. It's very cheap. I don't empty garbage without makeup on. Doryn Wallach: That's true, she puts lipstick on before she goes into her garage where nobody sees her. She'll come from dinner and put lipstick on. Arlene: My mother always told me, "A woman can just wear beautiful dark sunglasses with red lipstick and you look like a movie star. No one else knows what's going on." And I think she was right. Doryn Wallach: Do you remember the days where I'd miss the bus and I'd be like, "Mom, you have to take me to school." And you'd be so angry because you'd still be sleeping and you'd hop out of bed and you'd put on a fur coat, red lipstick and sunglasses to drive, to drop me off at school. Arlene: I learned that from my mother, yeah. Doryn Wallach: And I'd be like, "Why are you putting lipstick on? No one's going to see you. I'm going to get out of the car." And you'd be like, "No, no, no, no, no." I have such a vision of your big sunglasses. By the way, I go with that theory on red lipstick. I can be in a bad mood and I put it on, and it makes me feel better. I can not have any makeup on at all, but I put red lipstick on, I love red lipstick. Arlene: I agree. Doryn Wallach: And I haven't been wearing it because of masks. Arlene: I think red lipstick is a woman's special secret. I think it makes you feel very glamorous. Doryn Wallach: I just watched the video you sent me on the history of red lipstick, which is really interesting. Because it used to be considered kind of slutty. Arlene: Like a trollop, they used to say. Doryn Wallach: A trollop, right. Arlene: That's an old fashioned word my mom used to use. Doryn Wallach: And I do think there's probably a generation of women that still think that. Arlene: Oh, I'm sure. Doryn Wallach: I've seen the look when I wear red lipstick from older- Arlene: Are you serious? Doryn Wallach: Yeah, it's funny. Arlene: May I say one thing here? Doryn Wallach: You may. Arlene: You were saying how I embarrassed you so much because I spoke to your teacher about body building. Doryn Wallach: Oh my God. Oh, no, no, no, no. You didn't just speak to my teacher about body building, you used to have coffee with her, my first grade teacher to talk about body building. We haven't talked about the body building part yet. Arlene: I was just saying, my daughter thought I was so embarrassing. She doesn't know the meaning of embarrassing because she never unfortunately knew my mom because my mom died in her 50s unfortunately. So, Doryn never knew her. My mom was really tall, she always wore capes and she wore her hair in a french twist and big tortoise shell glasses, and she carried ... This was the most embarrassing, a very long cigarette holder. I can't even begin to tell you the embarrassment, especially as a teenager. She'd wear black, if she was wearing a black outfit she had tortoise shell to wear with camel's hair and white to wear in the summer with linen. It was so humiliating. Doryn Wallach: And gold lame, right? Arlene: She never wore gold lame. Doryn Wallach: As bathing suits. Didn't you say she- Arlene: No, her cigarette case was gold- Doryn Wallach: I thought you said she wore gold lame bathing suits. Arlene: Oh yeah, oh my God. Right. Yeah, that was the only- Doryn Wallach: So, she didn't have a traditional mommy either. Arlene: Oh my God. And she'd come into the school, into high school like this with a big camel's hair cape on and a wide brim hat with a long tortoise shell cigarette holder. Oh my God. I used to cringe. I used to run into the bathroom and stand up on the toilet seat so no one would know where I was. And if she thought she saw one of my girlfriends she'd go, "Darling, how are you?" And I'd just go, "Oh my God." So, I didn't even want to be seen as my mother's daughter. Now, of course, I would think it was fabulous. But when you're 15, it's beyond humiliating. Doryn Wallach: I kind of understand what you're talking about. Arlene: I was not like my mom. Doryn Wallach: My mom went through a stage in her ... What were you, 40? Arlene: No, before then. Doryn Wallach: A little before 40, where she decided to start- Arlene: From 32 until 41. Doryn Wallach: Okay, so she was in that age that we're all in now or a little past, my mom and dad had gotten divorced and she decided that she wanted to get into shape. Back then, personal trainers weren't really a thing. Arlene: There was no such thing. Doryn Wallach: They just didn't have them. How did you find body- Arlene: Oh, I'll tell you- Doryn Wallach: ... a body builder to train you? I actually don't know this story. Arlene: Oh, it's really funny. I'd never even heard of a trainer, I didn't even know what it was. It was like in 1980. So, that's 40 years ago. I went into a weight place to buy free weights and a treadmill and some stuff that I would need to put in my house. And I was talking to the man there and I said, "I'm a little bit afraid because you can seriously hurt yourself if you don't know what you're doing. So, I'm a little afraid to start training myself." He said, "Yeah, I know, that's a big problem." I said, "What would you suggest I do?" He goes, "I don't know, read a few books on it or something." And there was a younger man in there buying some platelets, weight plates. And he said, "Well, why don't you get a young man or an older man, whoever, that's just wants to earn some extra money and they can give you some pointers on working out when you first get your equipment?" And I wasn't intending to use it all the time, I thought it would just be once. So, he had a friend, so he gave me the name and I called him. And when I got all my equipment he came over and it was such a massive, massive help. Because I didn't know what I was doing. And women really didn't lift free weights then. I mean, I was lifting a lot of weight, a lot for me, like 150 pounds squats, like 48 squats really lifting heavy weights. And I would've seriously hurt myself. So, it was very beneficial. But I didn't even tell anyone that I had someone coming. Because I never heard of having someone coming and I was very embarrassed. But eventually a few of my girlfriends did it also, so I wasn't embarrassed then. Doryn Wallach: Always a trend setter. Arlene: No, that's not a trend setter, Doryn. Doryn Wallach: Needless to say, my mom with her fashion style decided to incorporate that into her gym wear. And I know I mentioned this before, but had Reeboks of every color in the rainbow, parachute pants of every color, matching headbands, matching sweatshirts. And every day, we talk ... Moms of today, we'll wear our Lululemon or whatever to pickup or drop off, but they didn't have that back then. So, she would come into school sometimes like that. And I'd just be like, "Ugh, why can't you dress like the other mommies?" And then- Arlene: Girl scouts. Doryn Wallach: Yeah, yeah. So, I have a very funny story, I was in second grade maybe. I was in the brownies, you weren't very involved in school. And you know what? I'm guilty of that too because I'm like, "I just ..." Arlene: Well, I couldn't stand the mothers. Doryn Wallach: Yeah, I ... And I like the mothers at my kids' schools, but I just don't have any interest in doing too much, I've done a little bit. Arlene: No, no, no, I wanted to do it. Doryn Wallach: Oh, your reason- Arlene: You didn't want me to do it. Doryn Wallach: I didn't? Arlene: No because you were embarrassed by me. Doryn Wallach: Oh, okay. Arlene: You didn't want me. Doryn Wallach: This is why this story's going to make a lot of sense. Oh yeah, because I can remember vividly when you signed up for this and me thinking, "Oh God, oh God, oh God." The mothers would come every week the brownie troop meeting and they would do an art project. Arlene: Teach them homemaking. Doryn Wallach: We would cook, we would take leaves and crayons and mash them between wax paper and we would do all sorts of crafts. And it was my mom's week to come in. I knew she wasn't going to do any of those things. And I was just ... the anxiety I had leading up to it was ... I can't even explain. Arlene: You were cringing in the corner. Doryn Wallach: Cringing. Arlene: Cringing. And really embarrassed, which actually made me continue. Doryn Wallach: And I get that, because I'm like that with Tatum, with my daughter. Arlene: It struck me so funny. Doryn Wallach: I love embarrassing her, it's so funny. Arlene: Well, I didn't want ... You just looked so embarrassed that it made me laugh. Doryn Wallach: It's funny. Yeah, I get it. Arlene: I came in, in gym clothes. And I had hired a young girl that I knew that did aerobics, she did aerobics. And she came in, in the aerobic outfit and I came with a big boombox. It was early '80s and I had a big boombox. And I also brought matching terrycloth headbands for all the little girls. And then I brought- Doryn Wallach: We were seven. Arlene: Yeah. And then I brought health food bars for the children. Doryn Wallach: And remember, this is before any of that stuff was a thing. It really, it was very unheard of. No one knew what power bars were. Arlene: My grandmother, by the way, was a vegan in the 1920s up until she died, which is pretty amazing. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. Arlene: I didn't know it then, I thought she was very strange. But I was very aware of these type of things, only because of my mom and grandmother. So, I came into the class, were there other mothers there? I don't remember. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. Arlene: Oh, God. Oh, did they not like me. Anyway, so I came in, in the workout clothes. And then I came with the young girl, I don't remember her name anymore, and a boombox and the headbands. Doryn Wallach: In one of your outfits. Arlene: Well, it was ... Girls wear outfits now. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. Arlene: And power bars. And then I told the girls, "We're all going to do aerobics." And they weren't very excited, I don't think they knew what aerobics was. And we gave them all headbands and they put them on and then I pressed the button on the boombox and then the girl started jumping around doing aerobics and the kids were supposed to be copying her. I don't know if they did even, I don't remember, it was so long ago. Doryn Wallach: I don't remember. Arlene: It was like 40 years ago. Doryn Wallach: I don't remember either. Arlene: No, like 35, I don't remember. Anyway, I do remember the few mothers were there, they were appalled, and they were giving me dirty looks and whispering to each other. That also made me laugh. Then at the end of it, when everything was done I said to the girls ... I could see how mad the mothers were, so I said to the children ... Because I had to come the next week too. And I can't believe I said this- Doryn Wallach: No, you didn't say it to the children, you said it to the mothers. Arlene: Oh, I said it to the moms. Doryn Wallach: They said, "What are you going to be doing-" Arlene: "What are you going to be doing next week?" And I said, "Next week, birth control." That didn't go over well. I was kidding obviously. They did not like me at all. Doryn Wallach: But this is what I love about my mom, this is what I mean, she didn't care. It's so funny because I can remember wondering why you weren't friends with anyone at school, like why didn't you talk to- Arlene: I had lots of girlfriends. Doryn Wallach: No, no, no but at school, like you never talked to the mothers. And I get it now, looking back at knowing some of the mothers. Arlene: I'm sure they were very nice. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. Arlene: They just- Doryn Wallach: You just didn't click with them. Arlene: ... didn't like me that much. No, they didn't like me. Doryn Wallach: Let's fast forward to me as a teenager. Her eyes just blew up. What was I like as a teenager? Arlene: Brutal. Doryn Wallach: No I wasn't. Arlene: You know, the funny thing with Doryn is, she's always, always been very loving and sweet and just a really kind little girl. But there were times when she couldn't stand me, like all teenage girls. Doryn Wallach: And I'm talking about this because many of us have teenagers, so I wanted to- Arlene: I think I looked fairly well when I was going out and she goes, "You're going out like that? Are you kidding?" Oh my God, do you think you look good, mom? You think that's a nice way to go out?" Or, "Look at your makeup, oh my God." I mean, it was just one thing after another. And you really want your daughter to think you look nice. I mean, you do, whether you admit it or not. I didn't think she did. She never said, "Oh mom, you look so nice." She may have thought it, but she didn't say it. Doryn Wallach: I think I was a little jealous of you. Arlene: No. Doryn Wallach: I was, yeah. Arlene: Maybe, I was jealous of my mom at one point. Doryn Wallach: Yeah, I know I was. We would walk down the street as a teenager and men would look at my mom and not look at me. And they would talk to my mom, and they wouldn't look at me. Or everyone would think we were sisters and I used to get so mad. Arlene: And what would you say to any men or boys that talked to us? What did you say? "Do you know how old she is?" Doryn Wallach: Oh yeah. Arlene: "That's my mother. You have no idea how old she is. You should feel ridiculous." And I'd go, "Oh my God." Do you remember that? Doryn Wallach: I do. Arlene: Do you remember when my teeth fell out? Doryn Wallach: Oh yes, oh this is a great story. Arlene: Not all teeth- Doryn Wallach: No, this is so great. We were in Bloomingdale's- Arlene: In the city. Doryn Wallach: No. Arlene: Yeah, we were in the city. Doryn Wallach: We were? So, this is- Arlene: Because I had to go to your dentist. Doryn Wallach: Okay, so this is when I was in college in New York. And we're walking through Bloomingdale's or something and she lost a tooth, which was ... Was it a cap? Arlene: It was a fake tooth put in until the implant tooth was ready. Doryn Wallach: Right, and it was her front tooth. Arlene: Literally my front tooth. Doryn Wallach: She had her mouth closed and we're walking through the store and a couple of men ... This wasn't ... I think they were gay, they were just like, "Oh, I love your look, you look amazing." And then somebody else said, "You look amazing." By the third person, I was like, "Why don't you smile for them, mom? Show them how amazing you look." Arlene: I had no teeth in the front. She goes, "Oh, why don't you show them how great you look, mom?" Doryn Wallach: Here I am at like 19 years old in the prime of my young youth and looks and everyone's looking at my mother, who's- Arlene: They weren't looking at me. Doryn Wallach: Who's in her 50s. Arlene: But that was in her mind they were looking at me. But she told me, "Why don't you smile for them, mom? Show them how great you look." Oh my God. I wanted to die. Doryn Wallach: I was jealous. Arlene: You weren't jealous. Doryn Wallach: I was. And when people said we looked like sisters I thought that meant I looked like I was in my 50s. I'd be like, "I don't understand." Arlene: When I was much, much younger people would say, "Oh, are you two sisters?" She'd go, "Sisters, are you crazy? I must look worse than I ever thought I looked. I must look horrible. How old do I look to you? 50, 60?" And she was a teenager. Oh my God. And people don't know what to say. She'd go, "Well someone sensed that someone ..." I was obviously the older sister, but it just drove her crazy. I forgot about that. Doryn Wallach: By the way, at 43 nobody looks at me like that. Arlene: Yes they do, you just don't see it. Doryn Wallach: No, they don't. Arlene: Yes, they do. Doryn Wallach: Okay, okay. Let's talk a little bit, since my audience is late-30s and 40s, let's talk a little bit about that time of your life. I know that ... This is a touchy subject because my mom went through a divorce with my dad when you were 40? Arlene: 39. Doryn Wallach: 39. Arlene: To 41. Doryn Wallach: I'm sure I have listeners who are going through divorces as well. What were the pressures or what were you feeling as you went into your 40s as far as feeling that the type of support you had of being that age. Did you feel like women talked about that age, did you feel transitions happening in your life? What was it like for you? Arlene: Can I say one thing about the generation I grew up in? Do you mind? Doryn Wallach: No, yes. Arlene: I grew up in the '60s in Boston. The big saying in the '60s was never trust anyone over 30. That was literally the saying. Once you were 30, you were part of the establishment, which was absurd, but that's what was thought. So, 30 was really considered over the hill, which is insane because 30s are wonderful. But here I was, 39, my husband left, I had two children, which thank God I had. Because it made my life so much better. But yeah, I remember men that I knew that were my friends, "Oh, I know someone to fix you up with. Oh no, he won't go out with you because you're almost 40, he only goes out with girls in their early-30s." I said, "Who were you talking about?" And they'd tell me somebody that I went to high school with. I went, "I wouldn't even look at him in high school. Are you kidding me? He doesn't want to go out with me?" "Oh no, he doesn't go out with women your age." That's all I used to hear from everyone. I thought I was so young, which I was. Doryn Wallach: You were. Arlene: But it was the first time it was pointed out to me that men close to my age wanted women much younger, which I just couldn't believe. Because I still thought I was young. But yeah, that was a really unhappy thing that people were telling me, that men were telling me. That I remember very well. I thought I was so young, but I guess other people didn't look at me as young. Doryn Wallach: Did women talk about the transitions that were happening, which they're happening with us, which is hormonal transitions, our kids are getting older and it's becoming a little bit about like, "Oh, I'm going to have to start thinking about myself a little bit more." Unfortunately for you, besides your dad, your mother died very young. But I think also our parents, you, are getting older, and that's also a different chapter of our lives. Did you talk about those things with girlfriends back then? Was it anything discussed? I mean, it's really not discussed that much now, which is why we're here today. Arlene: No. It actually was never discussed. Never. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. Did you find that to be a lonely decade? Arlene: Yes. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. Arlene: I did not like my 40s at all. At all. It's not a happy time to me. Perhaps partially because I was getting divorced I hated dating, I hated it. I got married at 20 and Doryn's dad was my boyfriend since I was 16 years old. So, you can only imagine all the vast experience with men I had. It's laughable. It's totally laughable. It was very difficult for me. I felt so awkward and so inept. It was just not a good time for me. I didn't like it at all. Doryn Wallach: Well and listen, I think that's ... I mean, that's why I started this podcast, I think there are a lot of women at this age who feel that way. Whether they're divorced or married or whatever it is, I think it's this very weird decade that no one's talking about and nobody's saying how they feel. And yet, there's a lot of changes that happen in this decade, a lot. So, I don't think it was just because of what you were going through. I think it was like it is now, right? Arlene: I started going through perimenopause very young, and went through menopause at 51 to start with. And then by 52 I no longer got my period at all. Doryn Wallach: How did you know you were going through perimenopause? Arlene: Well, I spoke to my gynecologist. But I was- Doryn Wallach: But what was it that was happening? Arlene: Well, I was bleeding enormously. Doryn Wallach: At what age? Arlene: Starting in my early-40s, which was another big wonderful thing to happen when you're starting to date. That was great. Doryn Wallach: So sexy. Arlene: Oh yeah, very sexy. Remember how I used to ... And I always had- Doryn Wallach: Yeah, I didn't realize though, that that was your 40s. Arlene: Well, I think one of the reasons I started weight lifting, it's funny now when I think about it. Because you really look so beautiful at that age. You're so vital. And I somehow was talked into I think by men, that I was sort of over the hill. I really felt that way. Doryn Wallach: But what were the symptoms of perimenopause that you were experiencing that made you feel? Arlene: I didn't have them as badly as some of the things you've experienced. I just, I was very tense a lot, very tense. I was very annoyed by the excessive bleeding. It's scary and sad because you think, "Well, this is it. This is the end of my youth." My mom used to say, "You have no idea what menopause is like. It's the end, Arlene, you dry up," which isn't really true. "And you start to get really old looking." That's a great thing to hear. Doryn Wallach: And if you'll see my mother, that's not true either. Arlene: But my mom so convinced me. And she was talking about herself. My mom died when I was 26, I was very young. But when I was younger, she used to talk about her feelings about menopause, which she had at the exact same- Doryn Wallach: Did doctors know what perimenopause was? Arlene: No, I'd never even heard the word. Doryn Wallach: So, you just- Arlene: I just went through what I went through. Doryn Wallach: And did you go to the doctor and say, "My body's doing crazy things, what's happening?" Arlene: Yeah, they said, "Well, it happens." They didn't have a name for it. Doryn Wallach: And how long did that happen for? Arlene: A long time. A long time. Doryn Wallach: 10 years? Arlene: Nine years, I would say. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. Arlene: Yeah. Doryn Wallach: There are a lot of women that don't even know what perimenopause is. It's kind of crazy. Arlene: Sure. No, some women have a terrible period and other women barely know they have it. It's not that strange. Doryn Wallach: By the way, can I jus tell you how many memories I have of my mother dressed up with a red blood spot in the back of her clothes? Arlene: A giant red spot. Doryn Wallach: So much so, I thought it was a normal thing that mommies had. I'd be like, "Oh mommy, you've got blood again on your butt." I didn't even know why. I mean, it was so often. I can remember in Disney World you had- Arlene: Yeah. What about in the White House? Doryn Wallach: Yeah. Oh, yeah, tell that story. Arlene: Oh, but it's not so interesting. It's not really interesting. Doryn Wallach: It's interesting. Arlene: I was very involved in civil rights at that age, and about 32 women from Boston were invited to the Vice President's house to meet Barbara Bush and have lunch and all this. Anyway, within five minutes of getting there, my girlfriend Judy said, "Arlene, you're in trouble." I had a white dress on, it was in the summer, I believe. She said, "You have a gigantic red period spot in the back of your dress." Oh my God. I almost died. We ran into the bathroom, I took off my dress and she put my dress, the back of it under the sink to get the blood out. And then she put it in the dryer to try to dry it. But what happened was, I had a pale pink circle, rather than a red circle. I didn't look good. Doryn Wallach: This is before you met her? Before you met Barbara Bush? Arlene: It was after, actually. Doryn Wallach: Oh. Arlene: But anyway, my girlfriend gave me her blazer to wrap around my waist, which was very attractive with a white lace dress. It was very funny. Doryn Wallach: Were those the years that you were getting those perimenopause symptoms? Arlene: Horrible, yeah. Doryn Wallach: Oh, that's so funny. I didn't realize, your periods weren't heavy before that. Arlene: They were never that light, but they were extraordinarily heavy in those years. Doryn Wallach: I didn't realize that. Arlene: In my 40s. Doryn Wallach: These are things that you should ask your mother, if you're fortunate enough to have your mother around. These are important questions. Because I don't have that issue, so that's good. Yet. Arlene: And usually you start menopause generally around the same age as your mom, which my mother ended it at 52 and so did I. I thought it was like the best thing that ever happened. I wasn't sad at all. Not at all. My mother cried- Doryn Wallach: I still have nine years. Arlene: ... and walked around with a fan, with a battery driven fan all the time. Doryn Wallach: For hot flashes. Arlene: Yeah. It didn't bother me, I was happy. Doryn Wallach: All right, now we're going to touch on five tips that you would give ... Being the age you are now, the young, young age of 73. Arlene: Oh my God. Don't say it out loud. Doryn Wallach: If you don't say it out loud, it's not true. Let's start with one to start, what would you tell women that you wish you were able to tell yourself in that time? In that late-30s, 40s age. Let's start with number one. Arlene: It's superficial, but the first thing that comes to mind is women look really good at that age, and I was filled with fear and thinking I looked terrible and I was over the hill. And that's absurd. These were thoughts that were put into my mind by men, men that were friends of mine. And when I think of it now, I could slap them across the face. Because it's not true at all. I mean, women are beautiful in their 30s and their 40s and their 50s. I thought the 50s was my favorite decade, actually. Doryn Wallach: You always say that. Arlene: I loved my 50s. My 40s, I was just very insecure. I didn't have my mom to say, "Oh, you look beautiful." I mean, no one ever said that to me, except my daughter and my second husband. But I didn't have a whole lot of confidence. I did feel like I was over the hill. And people can see that. Even if you don't say it, it comes through. I wish I had known how young I was. Art used to say to me, "Well, this is the best you're ever going to look, this is the youngest you'll ever be. So, you might as well enjoy it." That sounds a little superficial also, but it's true. I mean, to always be- Doryn Wallach: That's not depressing. Arlene: But it's true. I'm 73, I- Doryn Wallach: Yeah, but look at women in their 50s now. Arlene: Women in their 50s look fabulous. Doryn Wallach: That's what I'm saying, so we're not saying the best you're ever going to look is your 40s. Arlene: No, not the best you're ever ... But it's the youngest. Youngest doesn't mean the best. I think women when they get older look much better. Because they come into their own style, they come into a confidence they never had before, which I certainly never had. You're not afraid of what you say or might not say. I don't know, I just loved getting older. I actually love my age now. I do, I love my age. I'm not that thrilled with I have more behind me than I have in front of me. But that's the reality of life. Not happy about that at all. Doryn Wallach: What would be your- Arlene: But I love my age now. I really do. Doryn Wallach: What would be your second tip? Arlene: The first thing I think of is something I did all the time and I was such a moron. I had a vast group of women friends and I don't know whether women do this now, but everybody used to sit around and tell each other their most intimate secrets and this with their husband or what went on in their lives. And I think now how totally ignorant that was. I think it's completely ignorant for a woman to trust everybody in your circle is very stupid. Very, very stupid. Of course I thought it was normal then. Doryn Wallach: Why? Arlene: Because everybody would talk about the other person when the other person wasn't around. And tell, "Oh, you know what she said and what she did?" Why didn't I think, well, if they're talking about this one, they're probably talking about me? For some reason- Doryn Wallach: And you're a very open book. Arlene: Yeah. I am pretty open. Doryn Wallach: I'm a lot like my mom in the sense that I can talk to anyone. Arlene: But at that age, I didn't realize ... I don't know why I didn't realize it. I've even had girlfriends of mine now say, "God, I was so stupid, the way we used to sit around and talk, I would tell everybody everything. How dumb was I?" For some reason you thought you could trust them like you were part of a sisterhood. I'm sorry to say, I don't think that's true. I don't. Doryn Wallach: I don't actually feel that way. Arlene: I know you don't. Doryn Wallach: There are a few friends I can tell really serious things to. Arlene: I used to think that too. Doryn Wallach: Oh. Oh, all right. Well, if you guys are listening, then- Arlene: Well, I'm not saying you should listen to me. I'm just saying, that's one of the things I learned, that I wished I'd known when I was younger. Doryn Wallach: So, your tip is to tell those things to your therapist? Arlene: Probably. Doryn Wallach: Okay. Noted. Arlene: I honestly think that. Because then in later years you may not be friends with that person and no one can be more vindictive, sorry ladies, than a woman. I just think that we can be, we're capable of it. And I've had experience with that. And I just feel like slapping myself in the face over how I trusted so many people. And they trusted me too. But I never would say anything because I don't think I'm particularly vindictive. Doryn Wallach: I think you're being a little hard on yourself. Arlene: No, I don't. Doryn Wallach: Okay. All right, what's number three? Arlene: This is in my early 40s when I was dating, I have a fantasy now, I guess I was extraordinarily insecure. When I think of different men that I knew, I don't think they were all particularly that nice. Although for some reason I tolerated it, I think I was sort of conditioned to that when I was younger. I thought, "Oh, well that's just the way men are." I mean, it sounds crazy to girls today. But I come from a different generation. And I would tolerate certain things that today I go insane at the thought, I would never allow a man to do this or talk to me this way or treat me this way. Who the heck do they think they are? I have a fantasy that every man I ever knew that wasn't particularly nice, were all lined up together, and I told them all to turn their face in the direction of the left. And then I took one giant slap and slapped every God damn one of them across the face. Then I told them, "Okay, now face to the left." And then I slapped every single one of them with one fell swoop. It makes me so happy, I can't even tell you. My heart beams with thinking about doing that. I wish I didn't tolerate a lot of things that I did. Doryn Wallach: You've always been somewhat passive. And I am so not. My mom raised me to be the opposite of her in that way. Arlene: Because I didn't want you to be like me. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. Arlene: I was very passive and I took a lot of stuff that I never should've. Once I got in my 50s I went, "Oh my God, was I out of my mind?" But it was way too late. But I think women today aren't like that at all. Doryn Wallach: No. I mean, there are some, but I do think- Arlene: I mean, of course there's always some. But that's the best fantasy I have, is just whacking them as hard as I can on each side of their faces and then just having them just sit there- Doryn Wallach: I didn't know about this, mom. Arlene: Oh yeah, I've always had that. Doryn Wallach: Oh, that's good. Arlene: Oh, I guess I never told you that. Doryn Wallach: You didn't tell me it, so that's the first thing I'm learning about it. Arlene: Oh yeah. Doryn Wallach: Okay, now we're going to go into something a little more superficial, however, you are the authority. Arlene: I am not the authority. Doryn Wallach: You really are. I wish, if Michelle Spieler, my beautiful makeup artist friend that I did a podcast with was on here, she'd have so many questions. But my mom has a- Arlene: That's be you're my daughter. Doryn Wallach: No, it's not true. Arlene: Oh, okay. Doryn Wallach: It's not true. Mom, everybody asks you. My mom takes very good care of herself. When I was younger, her morning and evening routine could've been two hours long. Arlene: No, Doryn, you're- Doryn Wallach: At least it was in my mind. Arlene: No, you are so exaggerating. Doryn Wallach: You'd spend a lot of time- Arlene: No, it literally takes me, even now, maybe 10 minutes, the longest. Doryn Wallach: No. That is so not true. Arlene: No, it is true. Doryn Wallach: Oh, okay, anyway. Arlene: That's not true. Doryn Wallach: Anyway. Arlene: Yeah? Doryn Wallach: She looks amazing for her age, she has taught me lots of beauty tricks over the years and important things that I think are wonderful for women to hear. So, starting in your 40s or late-30s, 40s, tell- Arlene: Oh, it was way before my 40s. Doryn Wallach: Talk about things that women should be doing and paying attention to, as far as their bodies, their faces- Arlene: Can I just say one thing about my grandmother? Because she taught- Doryn Wallach: Yep. Arlene: My grandmother took beautiful care of herself. Every time I'd come over she'd have egg whites all over her face and cucumber slices around her eyes with a gauze around it, so she wouldn't lose them. And then she would sit in the bedroom floor and meditate. This is a woman that was born in the late-1800s. Doryn Wallach: It's so amazing. Arlene: Yeah. I mean, she was like that. She would meditate. She really took good care of herself. I used to watch her and she'd say, "Arlene, don't ..." They didn't have sunblock then, I'm talking about in the 1950s. All they had was zinc oxide, which was a thick, white ointment. My grandmother used to tell me, "Take zinc oxide, mix it with a moisturizer." I didn't listen to her as a teenager, by the way. Not until I was older. She said, "And put that on your face and put it on the tops of your hands and never forget your neck and your ear lobes." I went, "Ear lobes?" To myself, "That's not important." Now I look at women's ear lobes and I go, "Oh my God, she was so right." But I never thought about ear lobes. I never thought that when you're driving, your hands are in the sun directly 12 months out of the year, right? The tops of your hands. Unfortunately, that's a part of us that ages quickly. Not that aging is horrible, but it does happen and you get age spots. So, I started wearing sunblock on the top of my hands. By the way, all these things don't stop you from aging. The only way you'll stop aging is by dying. There's no stopping aging. And you know, I still age. To this day, I see things on myself all the time and go, "Oh my God, last year that wasn't there." But what are you going to do? I want to live to be old, so there's not much you can do. But I guess my grandmother used to say, "Well, you can still look as well as you can look at any given age. It doesn't mean you look young, but you can look better than normally you would've looked." And she was such a beautiful woman, I used to love- Doryn Wallach: You told me to start wearing eye cream when I was 16, and I have every day since I was 16. Arlene: Because the skin is not suspended under your eyes and there's no oil glands under your eyes. That's another part of- Doryn Wallach: Do you think it actually made a difference starting at 16? Arlene: Yeah. Doryn Wallach: Really? Arlene: I do. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. You didn't teach me that about sunblock though. Because I remember wearing oil and number four. Arlene: But by the way, when I was a teenager, I didn't listen to my grandmother either. Doryn Wallach: Oh, yeah. Arlene: We used to lie on the beach with aluminum visors. Doryn Wallach: You were doing that in your late-30s, by the way. Arlene: Yeah. Yeah, well for a while. Doryn Wallach: Yes, you were. I remember. Arlene: Yeah. But then I went, "Oh!" And then one day I looked in the mirror of my car when we were in Nantucket at the beach, I remember it like it was a week ago and I looked and went, "Oh my God, sun really isn't good for you. I'm really starting to look lousy." I was in my 30s, and that's when I decided no more sun. I just stopped. Doryn Wallach: That's so hard. It feels so good though. Arlene: I know it feels good. Doryn Wallach: But you didn't have the SPF that you have now too. Arlene: No. Doryn Wallach: So, a little sun is okay. Arlene: But that was like 33, 34 years ago. If you stop, it does make a difference. I mean, you do do some damage that you're not aware of. But you've got to stop young. My mom used to sit in the sun all the time. I feel badly saying this, but I remember noticing when she was dying, "God," I said, "She's really pretty lined." And she was like 57 at the time and I couldn't believe it. Because I didn't think 57 was old, because it isn't. And I said to myself, "She's always sat in the sun, that's what ..." Oh, and smoked. And smoking takes the oxygen out of your skin. Doryn Wallach: I never smoked cigarettes or used straws often because my mom would tell me that both cigarettes and using straws cause lines around your mouth as you get older. And I have a few friends, probably like Rachel, Jill, Debbie Tuck, who remember that. To this day they will talk about how they didn't use straws because- Arlene: But my grandma taught me that. Doryn Wallach: Actually don't like straws too. Arlene: No, but that's something my grandmother ... I idolized her, so I listened to whatever she said. But not when I was in the sun for those years, but then I stopped. But that's already 40 years ago. Doryn Wallach: Okay, well what's your next? Arlene: Always moisturize. Always. Never go to bed with dirty skin. Never go to bed with makeup on your skin, it's a very bad thing to do. Even if you don't wear moisturizer, make sure you clean your skin thoroughly. But you should wear moisturizer, different moisturizer for your neck because it's a different type of skin and for your face, and also for your hands. I'm not the authority, I just know what my grandmother told me. I mean, I'm not a beauty authority. Always wear sunglasses so you don't squint. My grandmother taught me that too. She once saw me squinting, she says, "Oh my God, are you going to have a lot of lines around your eyes." I was about 14. I said, "Lines? Why?" She goes, "Because you're squinting in the sun, you don't wear sunglasses." So, I started wearing sunglasses. It's kind of neurotic to be so concerned about your looks, but my grandmother was like that. So, I wanted to emulate her, whether it was right or it was wrong. Doryn Wallach: How do you feel about injections today and the way that women are using them? Arlene: I think it's great. I mean, I started doing it really young. But when I started, all they had was collagen and you had to be tested and wait two weeks to see if you were allergic to cows because it was from cows. Doryn Wallach: Oh, really? Arlene: It was bovine. Doryn Wallach: And yet you still put it in your skin. Arlene: Yeah. I wanted to look better. Isn't that awful? That's crazy. Doryn Wallach: By the way, I have memories as a child going with my mom, and you talked about sitting on the floor with your mom, sitting on the floor at the dermatologist, the electrolysis, the waxing woman, manicures, pedicures, the tanning booth. These were places I had to sit at with my coloring book and wait while my mom went in. Arlene: Oh, poor you. Doryn Wallach: It's not poor me, it's just a funny memory. Anyway, so go back to injections. Arlene: Well, I made lots of mistakes too, like I said with the sun. Doryn Wallach: Right. Arlene: You don't want to listen to your parents. Doryn Wallach: But you were talking, so injections were collagen back then. Arlene: They were just starting. Doryn Wallach: What year was this? Arlene: '76. Doryn Wallach: Oh, wow. Arlene: Let me explain, I had- Doryn Wallach: Is that why you look so good now? Arlene: I was only 29 in 1976. I went to see a play in New York and my first husband's cousin was in the play. I was sitting in the back with her in the dressing room and all these women came in that were the in play, it was the Best Little Whorehouse in Texas, I remember. And they all looked so good. And she told me they were in their late-30s and 40s, and I was 29. You know at that age I thought, "Wow, they're really old." Which again, obviously they weren't. They looked so beautiful. I said, "God, they look so good." And she said, "They all do collagen." And I went, "What's collagen?" I didn't know what it was. And she said there's one doctor in New York that does it. This is again, in '75 and '76, I don't remember his name. But it was the only doctor, and no doctors in Boston did it. So, I went to this one doctor. I remember I had, I don't know, like one line on the right side of my cheek that was a little deep and it seemed to be getting deeper. And I said to the doctor, "Can you fill this?" He went, "Of course." And I went, "Oh my God, he can?" And he filled it and it was gone, completely gone. I thought it was like a miracle. I couldn't believe it. I mean, I didn't have lines, but I did have that. And I got hooked on it. But I don't think I ever went over and beyond what you should do. I don't think so because I have lots of areas on my face that I could do, but I don't do. I don't do Botox around my eyes because at 73 you should have lines around your eyes. Doryn Wallach: But it's amazing, you don't have that many lines around your eyes. Arlene: Yes I do, look. Doryn Wallach: But mom, you're 73 years old. The fact that you ... I'm not a fan of how that looks, when women do that. I don't know. When they Botox sometimes their eyes and their eyes don't have any expression. I guess it depends on who's doing it. Arlene: I think it does. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. Arlene: Because some doctors will say, "I'm not doing that, it's too fake looking." I mean, you have to have a doctor ... I find the women doctors are much better. Doryn Wallach: You never really did your forehead, right? Arlene: No. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. Arlene: I didn't. I have lines, look. Doryn Wallach: Yeah, she's got bangs, so she's showing me. Arlene: Yeah, I kind of have craters under there and no one sees it. Doryn Wallach: I had a makeup artist once tell me, she had bangs like you, and she said she calls them bangtox. Arlene: That's very funny. Doryn Wallach: Because it covers her lines. I'm like I'm going to need bangtox. Arlene: I've had bangs since I was a little girl, I just liked them. Actually, I have to admit, and I usually don't tell people, the first time I did it, I was 29. But now girls do it as teenagers. Doryn Wallach: Well, they do it so young and I think they look older. Arlene: It was unheard of for young girls. Doryn Wallach: I don't like to judge anyone, but I do think some of these young girls look older because they're doing it. And I get that they're doing it as a preventative, but I don't know. Arlene: It's funny, when you say a preventative, I always thought that's crazy. But now I believe it. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. Arlene: At 73, I have to say that I believe it. This sounds silly, and maybe some of you out there will say, "Oh God, is she out of her mind?" But I used to have these certain lines that I had filled repetitively as they started to come back, like maybe three or four times. I haven't seen them in years. Doryn Wallach: Well no, I mean, that's how it works. Arlene: But that sounds crazy, but it's true. Doryn Wallach: I did Botox three years ago and I looked so scary that I've never been back. Arlene: I didn't even notice. Doryn Wallach: Oh no, no, no, it was bad. Here, the side of my eyes and- Arlene: Well, they want you to do more because they make more money. Doryn Wallach: But I'm not opposed to going back. I just feel like I have to find the right person and somebody who does it naturally. I think a lot of people look scary. But then in the places that were fixed, you stop doing those areas, right? Arlene: Right. But then of course when ages- Doryn Wallach: Then something else pops up. Arlene: Then poof, comes another one. Ooh, isn't that nice? Another one. My mother didn't have to go through that, they didn't even care, everything was natural. Oh, God. Thank God it isn't now. Doryn Wallach: My mother's not a fan of natural. Arlene: No, I don't like ... Why am I? Every girl I knew growing up in the '60s that was au natural and all they cared about was the earth and the wind and the moon and aquarius and all this crap, they now ... Oh my God, when I went to my high school reunion, I almost died. Doryn Wallach: Yeah, but they're probably happy in their own skin. Arlene: I don't think so. Maybe they're happy, but oh my God. Doryn Wallach: I envy women who don't- Arlene: I do too. Doryn Wallach: Who don't care. Arlene: I know, I do too. Doryn Wallach: That's great. Good for them. Arlene: When I see women that are really heavy but they think they look fabulous, I'm so envious of them. I see them ... I think it's the greatest thing to think you look great with whatever you have. Doryn Wallach: To have that confidence. Yeah, yeah. Arlene: Oh, it's amazing. I don't look and go, "Ew, how can she think she's great?" I think it's fabulous. Doryn Wallach: I agree. Arlene: I've never been like that and I'm always very conscious of what I eat. Doryn Wallach: Well, you grew up in a different time. I think that body image and women of all shapes and sizes is appreciated more today. Arlene: Absolutely. Doryn Wallach: So, thank God for that, for our kids. Even though they still want to look like certain girls they see on Tiktok or Instagram. Well mom, this was so much fun. Arlene: Oh, thank you. Doryn Wallach: I love you so much. Arlene: I love you so much too. Can I say one thing? Doryn Wallach: Oh, okay. Arlene: One little thing. You know how you anguish over your child, especially girls when they're teenagers because they're not that nice and they hurt your feelings, but you don't want to say anything and you kind of cry inside because you want your daughter to think, "My mommy's the best thing in the world." Doryn Wallach: Yes, I know how you feel. Arlene: But you don't feel like that when they're teenagers, oh my God. And I was single at that time. I can remember so many times being so, so unhappy and sad. But the great thing is, is that they grow out of it and they become your absolute best friend in the whole world and the one person that always tells you the truth and the most loving, caring person in your whole life. So, what a wonderful thing that is to look forward to. All though no one told me about that. So, I didn't think I had a future with my daughter, I thought she would hate me permanently. Doryn Wallach: I have reached out to my listeners and followers on Instagram, and you know I made that TikTok the other day about- Arlene: Oh, yeah. Doryn Wallach: It was LeeAnn Morgan, the comedian. If you listen to her on Pandora, she goes farther in that whole thing and says, "I believe that God makes our daughters treat us this way so that when they're ready to leave the house, we're not as upset about it." Which is so funny. Because then what happened with me, and I think has happened with a lot of women, is you go to college and you're like, "Oh, I miss my mom. I miss all the things she did for me, but I miss our conversations." That's when we became really, really close I think is when I went to college. Arlene: But I didn't know that. Doryn Wallach: I have to keep that in mind. Because my- Arlene: You do have to. Doryn Wallach: It is just starting for me. And when my daughter saw that TikTok that I made, she's like, "You're so mean to me." And I'm like, "Mean to you?" Arlene: You're mean? She thought you were mean to her? Doryn Wallach: Anyway, thank you, that's good advice. That's really ... Because it hurts. Arlene: Oh, it hurts so much. Doryn Wallach: It does. Arlene: Again, really quickly, nobody told me, "Oh, but in the near future your daughter will become your best comrade, you'll be the best friends, she's the one that's always going to care about you and want to do the best things for you." I didn't know that. I thought she was going to go off into the world hating my guts. I only wish someone had told me that. Doryn Wallach: Well, you didn't have a mother to tell you that. Arlene: No one told me anything like that. Now my daughter is everything in the world. She's my absolute best friend. I don't think anyone really cares as much about me as my daughter. My husband too, but my daughter. Doryn Wallach: Aw. Arlene: I think so. But I didn't know that. So, I think it's important for women to know that it doesn't go on forever. Doryn Wallach: We'll make sure Keith doesn't listen to this so he knows that I'm the favorite child. Arlene: Oh, he's a wonderful son. Oh, Doryn claims I like him much better. Doryn Wallach: No, but I think now I'm back where I think I might be the favorite child now. Arlene: No, I don't have a favorite. Doryn Wallach: Anyway, mom, thank you for doing this today. I hope that this was helpful for all of you. Arlene: I hope I didn't bore too many girls out there. Doryn Wallach: I don't think you bored any. I think this is going to be a great episode. Arlene: I hope not. Doryn Wallach: Thank you for coming on the show. Arlene: You're welcome. Doryn Wallach: You can go to My Mom Arlene on Instagram if you want to see ... I don't post a lot of things on there ... She's rolling her eyes. Arlene: I'm so embarrassed. Doryn Wallach: So embarrassing. But you'll find it entertaining. And maybe I'll have you back another time. We'll see how the response is. Arlene: Oh, okay. Doryn Wallach: Okay. I love you and I thank you. And thank you to all of you for listening once again, and until next time. Thank you so much for listening. Remember to give yourself permission and know that you are not alone. Don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any episodes, reviews are always appreciated, and you can reach me by email at ItsNotaCrisis@Gmail, Instagram, ItsNotaCrisisPodcast. And please join our Facebook group as well. Until next time, just remember it's not a crisis.

EPISODE 14 In this episode, with Dawn Nadeau of Two Cents Riot, we touch on 5 practical and important steps for every woman who is thinking about starting a business. In addition to covering the business side, we also discuss the importance of self-awareness and acknowledging your strengths, weaknesses and passions before your launch. Dawn is a serial founder, an experienced businesswoman and she is super-passionate about helping other women to get started. She is a partner in TwoCents Riot, a company that works with aspiring entrepreneurs, side-hustlers, in-place pioneers and lean teams. They provide company and product naming services, home business and start-up strategy and resume coaching to help founders and individuals move from ideation to execution. Dawn has been featured in a variety of publications and on television, including NBC, ABC, Fast Company, Advertising Age, Marie Claire, Today.com, Huffington Post, Forbes.com, Slate.com, The Guardian, and the BBC to name a few. She’s also an expert on self defense and children, the first woman in the United States to be certified as a G1-Instructor in Krav Maga and coincidentally her daughter is best friends with Doryn’s daughter. Resources mentioned in this episode: https://www.fastcompany.com/section/mentorship https://www.twocentsriot.com/ EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Doryn Wallach: Welcome to It's Not A Crisis. I am your host Doryn Wallach. I'm an entrepreneur, a mother of two, a wife and a 40 something trying to figure out what is happening in this decade. Why is no one talking about it? I created this podcast to help women in their late 30s and 40s to figure out what is going on in our mind, body, soul, and life. We may laugh, we may cry, we may get frustrated, but most importantly, my goal is to make this next chapter of life positive. I'm also full of my own questions and I'm here to go on this journey with you. So let's do it together. Hi everyone, welcome to episode 14 of It's Not A Crisis. I cannot believe that I have done 14 already. I love doing this podcast. I don't think I've ever loved doing anything as much as this. So I really hope I can continue to do this. First, I just want to ask you very kindly and I know it's annoying. I don't like doing it either, but if you could please rate and review the podcast anywhere you listen to podcasts, because that helps to reach a greater amount of women that we can all help together. So I would really appreciate it. Even if you hate it, it would mean a lot to me. So, as I've mentioned before, I'm somewhat of a serial entrepreneur. If I listed all of the businesses I've had since I left college, we might be here all day. But in my 20s I would get an idea and I would go with it immediately. And I was really disappointed if it wasn't an instant success. I was very impulsive and they would do well, but then I would realize I didn't have the funds to continue it, or I didn't have the people that could work for me or even the mindset to keep going. And as I got older, I got a little less impulsive and I spent more time sorting what exactly it was that I wanted to do. I still have a million ideas every day business ideas, but I've learned that I can't implement them all. Then that just won't be success if I'm doing too many things at once. In this current state of our worlds right now, I'm starting to reevaluate everything. I'm not sure about you, but one of the things is the time that I had put into my job and what I was taking out of it. The time away from my family and so many other things. I'm actually reevaluating my career as a fine jewelry designer. Well, I took classes and I had a mentor and I did as much research as possible. I definitely made a lot of mistakes along the way. And I don't think I realized how much of the industry is not who I am. For example, I absolutely dislike sales. I hate selling things. Yeah, right you might say wrong industry. I don't like mingling order to sell things. I don't like going to the trunk shows or the jewelry shows or small group sales. It all makes me really anxious. I am an artist. I prefer to be behind the scenes, creating the art, just like being behind the microphone, talking to you. It's definitely more of my comfort zone. Although I love people and I can talk to anyone, but there were just so many things about jewelry that felt very uncomfortable to me that it wasn't worth it for me to continue to do those things. So I'm still trying to figure it out. I'm working on that at the moment. I will be doing something to keep my foot in the industry. This was not a segue to sell jewelry by the way because again, I don't like doing that. But if you do like jewelry, my entire collection is 50% off through the holidays on dorynwallach.com. See, how did I do? But no pressure. Just take a look if you like it and you want to tell friends and do you want to buy someone a gift? There are some really, really good prices for fine jewelry. So this brings me to today's guest. This is going to be a great show because I know that many of you are reevaluating your current job situations. You're probably getting inspired by the pandemic for a new business idea, or you just want to start a business after many years of staying at home with kids. And actually that's a topic that I'm going to cover in a completely different podcast. So keep checking in for that one. So today we're going to tackle five tips to getting your business idea started. And my guest today is not only a genius, but she is a female powerhouse. My daughter's best friend's mom and has become my friend as well. As a partner in TwoCents Riot, Dawn Nadeau, thrives in the messy area where ideas first spark. TwoCents Riot works with aspiring entrepreneurs, side hustlers, in place pioneers, and lean teams. They provide company and product naming services, home business, and startup strategy and resume coaching to help founders and individuals move from ideation to execution. Dawn has extensive experience in new product development from inside the startup landscape and innovating within the structure of big corporations from the chairman's office of Goldman Sachs to Time Magazine, best invention winner. She understands the challenges of getting things done regardless of the scale. Dawn also loves to hit things and as a former Krav Maga instructor, mostly inside the court tennis player and a beginning banjo player, although not all at the same time. I should also mention that she's hilarious and she's as real as can be. Dawn, welcome to the show. I am so happy to have you here. Dawn Nadeau: Thank you. I'm so excited. Doryn Wallach: We were having drinks a few weeks ago while our daughters were at a party. And we started talking about this and I said, "Oh my God, we have to make this a podcast. This is so amazing." I knew what you were doing, but like me, you're always doing a bunch of different things. So I didn't know exactly and when you told me about it, I just know that there are a lot of women who are going to find this so incredibly helpful. I think where I want to start with you is I'd love to know what inspired you to start TwoCents Riot with your partner Elizabeth Chapin. Dawn Nadeau: It was really an evolution and I have to thank the pandemic for that. We have been consulting together for a while, since we closed our last startup, which was called VONK. And we were part of an incubator at NYU. We closed that in 2018 and then just continued to do some consulting. But over the pandemic, we realized that we consistently get asked to do some of the same things. And we also really wanted to figure out how we could work with more women, more female founders, and more really small businesses. We've done work with bigger companies and I get really excited in this blank space and it's a space I enjoy. And I think there are more people who have great ideas for businesses and they need to share their two cents with the world. That's where the name came from TwoCents Riot. We are both really committed particularly to women, but the odd great men too, for more people to do what they love and figure out how to create work that is meaningful, but that is on their own terms. And I think women especially really need that these days. Doryn Wallach: Absolutely. It's actually really sad to me how many women are having to change their careers because of COVID and their careers becoming secondary to their husbands. I keep seeing it over and over again and it's not really fair, but I somehow feel that as women we're going to get around this and come out stronger and that's where you come in. Today we're talking about five tips to getting your business idea started. And I think this is so important because what you're doing is you're starting from wherever level somebody comes to you, but you're starting with almost a psychological component to it that I think is really important. And as a business owner myself looking back on when I started, I wish I had something like this because I think it would have helped me to understand who I am before delving into something without having that idea. So I'd love to start with tip one, which is know yourself. Dawn Nadeau: I always thought, and I'm sure you feel this too as a serial entrepreneur, that starting a business is the ultimate journey of self-awareness and self discovery. Because you learn so much about yourself for the good and for the bad sometimes. But it's all information. It's like becoming a mother. I mean, it's very much like becoming a mother. I have started two businesses totally by myself and been part of other startups. But the two I started myself felt like children and I felt very, very personal about them and I learned a lot about it, but I do think that the big tip in know yourself is what is your why behind your motivation to start your own thing. And what do you want to share with the world and why do you want to do this? Because there's a lot of different reasons and it's not always about money. Although there's also opportunity for women, perceived opportunity to have a lot more control over their schedule. And it's true when you work for yourself, you definitely have more control over how you spend your time. But as a founder, I'm sure you yourself have experienced, it doesn't necessarily mean you have more time. You actually sometimes end up working more, but it's a little more on your own terms. And so I think a lot of people think they're going to have a lot more time if they do their own thing and I do think that's a bit of a misconception. Doryn Wallach: To side note that, that my husband, Ty is starting a business right now. And I was talking a little bit about what we're going to be talking about. And he's like, "Why didn't you tell me that I'd have less time?" And I said, "You know many times I've told you that. I mean, have you not watched me over the past few years?" Dawn Nadeau: It's so true because you're putting all your energy into this and you're thinking about it much like a newborn and it requires a lot of time and care and feeding and support. So understanding why you want to do your own thing. Is it the content of what you're working on that you're super excited and passionate about? Is it the ability to have more control or you're being driven by compensation. And then also really know yourself. What is your capacity, your realistic capacity? How much time can you spend to this? What kind of money are you willing to put into it? What kind of support network do you have both professional and personal? And then this is another really big personal know yourself one. What are your goals? What will success feel like to you? And coming up with a definition or a set of goals and a definition of success that is something that is realistic. Everybody would like to make millions of dollars and be like, Sara Blakely, the Spanx founder. I mean, that woman is genius, but we're not all going to get right there, but maybe it will feel really successful to you if you see something you created on a shelf. Maybe you would feel really good if you could have a little bit of side income and have five or six clients for whatever service offering you're going to offer. Or maybe it's something you want to start small and grow over a period of time. Maybe you're trying to change behavior. We worked with one founder and her goal was to really just reduce plastic bag use in her own community. She'd been a stay at home mom for years and had never really thought about herself as an activist or founder or entrepreneur, and just had no idea, "How do I go about impacting this one change in my community?" And so we worked with her around that, but having a set of goals that are meaningful to you, I think is important. And then a timeframe that is significant to you so that you can begin to plan. And the timeframe can be huge. We've also worked with another founder who has a 9:00 to 5:00 job, and she's been creating a product for a pet company for a couple of years, and she has been working on it very slowly, but she's really getting there. And where she is now is very different than where she was two years ago and she's given herself a nice long time horizon because it is a true side hustle. It's something she has to do while she's supporting herself at her 9:00 to 5:00 job. I think those are all parts of the knowing yourself. Doryn Wallach: I feel like as we get older, success means something different. I think that when I was younger, it was about making money. And by the way, even seven years ago with my business, it was like, I want to win awards. I want to be in a great retailer. I want to be in Vogue. And I achieved all of those things and while I'm proud of those things, I still don't know if that's what I was looking for success wise. So it's interesting. I don't think it was financially either, but I feel with every few years we change and I think that I talk about this all the time with women, our age know what does success feel like to you? So I think that's such an important question. Dawn Nadeau: It is. It's also, you shouldn't feel bad and this is again, back to that in really knowing yourself. If you want to be featured in a magazine, you want to be part of the Inc 500, or you want to have somebody write a profile and you want to see your picture in the pages of magazine, or you want to be on TV. That is a perfectly fabulous and wonderful goal, and my suggestion would be to acknowledge that to yourself so that you can backtrack from what that is. Because when nowadays I think women are afraid to even admit to themselves some of the secret desires of your ego, because you've already achieved those things for you, Doryn, it's easier to say, "I realized once I got them that maybe I wanted something different." I've also been in magazines and been on TV and it was easier for me to walk away from that in my next job because I had already gotten that. Do you know what I mean? And so sometimes maybe people want that or need that for themselves. And I would encourage everyone to dream as big as they want, but to let the dreams suit their inner most desires of their heart. Doryn Wallach: Absolutely. And I also didn't mean that I'm not grateful for having all of those things. Dawn Nadeau: Yeah. No I know. Doryn Wallach: I really am. The other thing I was thinking that there was one goal I had that I have not achieved is red carpet. Actually most people don't know this. A lot of these actors are paid by the jewelry houses sold and it's a lot. So some of the smaller designers never quite get out there. Dawn Nadeau: Yeah, it's getting harder and harder to get that huge recognition. And I think it can also be a ever moving target that can feel, you can find yourself chasing it and never quite achieve what you thought you were going to achieve. Doryn Wallach: Okay. So number two, write it, say it, research it. Dawn Nadeau: I feel like the very first thing you have to do is start by speaking your idea to more than just your immediate family, but your immediate family is a great place to start it. You have to let the idea have light and air. I feel like ideas are living things and they need to be fed to grow. And I'm surprised how many people haven't written their idea. They might've talked about it. When we work with new people and starting their side hustle starter, which is the like get started thing, we do a survey in advance and you have to write about it. Several people have been like, "Wow, I hadn't had to write the idea down. That's a big part of it." Talking about it, writing it and then researching it. So you really want to be a consumer of your business before your business exists. So you want to be in the spaces where it might be, whether it's shopping in those stores or online in the communities where you might find it. Be familiar with the space that you will be playing in and be your best first customer. And then also do research and try and understand the big levers of the business. Is it a product business or a consumer business? How much cash might it require upfront and begin to sketch it out. But you don't have to get hung up in spreadsheets early on because I think that can also be daunting and intimidating and there's a lot of steps to take to getting down the path of starting your idea before you have to create a business plan or a huge robust business model in Excel. A lot of people get intimidated by this idea of a business plan while I think it's really important to sketch out and understand the financial aspects of your business. It doesn't always have to be the first thing you do in the first beginning months of starting something, because for a lot of people who've never started something, it's some of these other elements of really doing some research and thinking about and getting to know all the aspects of your business and the money piece falls into that as you're beginning to compile your research. Doryn Wallach: I love that you're saying this because when I started out, I did this really intense business plan. I hired somebody to help me project sales goals and then next three years, five years, 10 years. And not only did I never refer back to that, but because it was almost overwhelming. There was so much information, but I definitely didn't meet those goals. It just like one more thing to make you feel like you're not doing it right. So I'm so happy to hear you say that that's not necessarily what you need to do. I never realized that. Dawn Nadeau: Business plans are great if you're trying to raise money. You will need a business plan if you need to raise money from an angel investor or obviously a VC or even friends and family where you're going to ask other people for money outside of a crowd sourcing mechanism. But beyond that, the business plan then is a tool for you as the founder to help you guide your business and assess risk and understand all the elements of it. And I don't think it has to be super elaborate and I think you can get to those answers in a very different way. And I just think business plans are a tricky animal that people get really hung up with because they think they're supposed to do it. And I'm like, eh, maybe, maybe not. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. Well that's good. It's a different way to approach it. I like that. Number three is define it. What type of business is it? What does that mean? Dawn Nadeau: Yeah, I think there's so many kinds of businesses, right? And in writing and researching your idea, writing about it to friends and people when you're first, starting out, you will intuitively know, obviously, is it a product business? Is it a service business? Is it something you're going to sell direct to consumers? Are you going to try and sell it in retail? Are you selling it online? Are you providing what we would call B2B services where you're selling directly to other businesses? Are you going to be sitting behind another service provider and providing services to them? So really understanding what kind of business it is and then this is back to what you were saying. You've mentioned before Doryn, about not loving to do trunk shows and selling. So matching the type of business to your interests and talents. How you want to interact with the business, right? Because you need to know yourself and what you like to do, what you're best at and where are you going to be most likely to put most of your time and energy that's going to help tailor a business to suit you. So for example, if you want to create a product, you have an idea for a product, but you really don't want to be on social media, that might require you to think a little bit more about how you're going to sell that product because like it or not right now, social media, Instagram, and Facebook, and even TikTok are ways that people are selling products to get direct to a targeted customer. That doesn't mean that's the only way you can sell a product. And if you have no interest in spending time building a following and a brand, that's fine. Then you can put that to the side and say, "Well, what type of business might I create that doesn't require me to do that?" And an example would be, if you had an idea for product, you might want to partner with an existing brand and say, "Look, I have this great idea for a product. It really suits your brand. I will deliver it to you. You can co-brand it. It would be white label." And that would be a way for you to see your product out in the world, but you don't necessarily have to have all the energy and time of developing an Instagram following because that's not everybody's cup of tea and that's fine. So I think it's important to know what you're best at and what you want to do. And that also gets back to knowing yourself. What's your capacity? How much time do you have? What are your resources? Product companies also require upfront cash. I know very few product companies that don't require an outlay initially of cash either create a prototype or molds or something. And so if you don't have that kind of cash and you don't want to fundraise, then maybe there's another avenue to explore to do something that's similar or related to your initial idea. Doryn Wallach: And if somebody comes to you and they're not exactly sure how to get this product out, or if they want to go wholesale or whatever they want to do, is that part of what you do to help them to hone in on that somehow? Dawn Nadeau: Yeah, definitely. Obviously, always start with the idea. What's the spark? The what that somebody wants to share with the world. What's their two cents? And then figuring out what gets them really excited and then matching the idea to the founder really, and helping them nuance the idea out so that it has the shape and structure that feels doable to them because there's really no point having an idea or a business that doesn't suit you as the founder. And I think that's a shame. We've also worked with people who we start down the path of their idea. They have an idea for something, a business, and we start sketching it out and asking all the questions and digging into it and really getting into the, where are you going to find your customers? How are you going to market to them? And the idea shifts or changes, or they've decided, "You know what, I actually don't want to do that. What I really want to do is write a blog on this subject, or I'm going to write a book." And sometimes people take left turns. But the good thing about that is the pain of not knowing is a very real pain. So if you always walk around and like, "I had this great idea, I could have been a bajillionaire." It'll sit there on your shoulder and bother you. And I fully believe that if you walk down the path a little bit, the path may veer and take a turn and you get to take that turn as long as you're on the path. But if you never get on the path, you're never going to get the opportunity to choose left or right. I'm sure in your many founding experiences, you yourself have made choices, right? You'll make a choice. You'll say, "I'm going to do this, not that." And all of a sudden that opens up another door to another avenue or opportunity that you wouldn't have gotten if you had gone right instead of left. Doryn Wallach: Well, I've also had a lot of ideas that I've seen other people do and then they've been super successful and I'm like, "Ah, I did [crosstalk 00:23:00] it kills me. But at the same time, that person probably had more money behind them to do it or they had the right connections at that time to do it that I probably didn't have. But I've just had so many ideas and when I see it happening, I'm like, "No, that was my idea." Dawn Nadeau: I know. It's trade off. I do feel like the thing I've learned over the years and watching ideas come and go into the world is whenever I feel that way, I always come back to my own capacity. And I remember that I have sometimes made choices to go left instead of right, because I didn't have the capacity at the time to do whatever it was that was required to move something forward or to follow a particular opportunity all the way where it was going to go. Because either I didn't want to travel or I wasn't in a position to wanting to work the hours or I just wanted to be home with my kids. And so sometimes I think women especially have that experience of having had to let things go and it is really hard. You can't have it all, all at the same time. I mean, that's like the oldest cliche of motherhood, but you can have it at different times in your life. And sometimes by the time you get the chance to have it, you find you don't want it anymore. Which is, I think, what you were saying earlier back to some of the experiences that you've had. You've had them and now you can let them go. Doryn Wallach: Yes. And I think at our age, especially, we're starting to care less about certain things. And so how we're looking at this next chapter of our lives and what we want to be doing with it, I think is very different. So I think if you're doing the work with you at different stages of your life, it's going to change drastically, I think. Dawn Nadeau: Totally. And I think the world has changed too. I think, as you said at the beginning, that we're going to see these changes for the better, particularly for women, but that we all have paused and said, "Okay, I'm going to take a stock of what's really important to me. How can I contribute to making a positive change in the world?" And I do think the more people who do work that they love... I don't think every business has to be a energy saving self-driving car or way to create water from dirt. But it is great when people do work that they love because they're inspiring other people, they're feeling good about themselves, and they look for opportunities to lift up others. And that is what the world definitely needs more of in whatever shape it takes. Doryn Wallach: Absolutely. So number four is who is your ideal customer? Dawn Nadeau: I think this is a big one. A lot of founders are the customers themselves. They create products or services that they want to see in the world that they can't find themselves and so they create it and they are their ideal customer. But I think you can go a little bit beyond that and really get in your mind a picture of your customer, where do they shop? What do they do with their free time? What other products or services are they buying? Who's going to buy what you are selling? And then how do you envision them buying it? Like really get down to the logistics. How are you going to let people know about it? Are you doing crowdfunding? Are you going to take out ads somewhere? Are you partnering with people because the type of customer you are will help dictate how you're going to find them. If you're marketing services to a law firm, you don't really need to be on Instagram. You can market to them through journals or professional associations or in another way. And you also might have more than one customer. And this has definitely happened to me when we created our action figure business. We thought we were selling to parents of girls because we designed a line of female action figures with a better breast to hip ratio and that were more appropriate. And we realized actually in doing it, we had a whole secondary customer base of adult male collectors, and we just never thought we were going to have action figure collectors as a real customer base. And we did and that was really interesting for us and we were able to pivot there. So you might have more customers than you think, and as you get into it, you'll be able to expand and it gives you opportunity for growth. But thinking about your customer first, having a picture in your mind of them is really important. Doryn Wallach: Were those customers creepy? Dawn Nadeau: No, no, no. I mean, maybe some were. But no. You know what? The action figure community is really, really cool and we did a lot of events. We went to Toy Fair and Comacon and we did a bunch of really interesting things and we're able to engage with customers and collectors in a new way. And I learned a ton about action figures in doing it and plastic manufacturing. But it was very cool, but it's neat. It's a good lesson that you never quite know who your customer is and don't shut off whole groups of customers too early on. Doryn Wallach: Well, I want to use an example of this because I think when I started out, I had the idea who my customer was and over time, and from experience of trunk shows or doing jewelry shows and talking to retailers or just talking to friends and consumers, I realized that my customer, she wasn't the customer that wanted what everybody was wearing and what was trending and what's happening. She wanted to be the one that found a designer that people didn't know about and found the jewelry that was modern, but still classic. It's actually a lot harder to sell to that customer because it's narrow. It would be a lot easier for me to design trendy jewelry and distribute it all over than it is to come up with somewhat unique ideas that there's only a certain customer base that's really looking for that. And that was a challenge and something I didn't expect to happen. I found those people, actually, a lot of people in the art community. Trial and error. Dawn Nadeau: Yeah. No, it's interesting. I would say that in doing that, you were very much true to yourself because you knew what you liked and how you wanted to design. And also it sounds like you probably had a really good sense of your goals and how you wanted your business to run because you clearly could have just gone down the path of designing a particular on trend and doing mass market. It sounds like probably made the conscious choice to stay in a more focused way that was more true to the art that you wanted to create and the business you wanted to build. So it sounds like you really know yourself. Doryn Wallach: Well, I wouldn't go that far. There's so much to learn. Okay, number five is begin. How do you begin? Dawn Nadeau: I feel like this is actually the most critical step. You got to just start and you start with- Doryn Wallach: Like jumping in a pool of cold water. Dawn Nadeau: ... 100%. No step is too small. So I'm a big, big fan of micro-steps. When I was at Fast Company Magazine, one of our columnists was a guy named David Allen, who has a book called Getting Things Done. And he would write for us and we got to know him quite well. I spent a lot of time with him over the years, but he is a big fan of micro-steps and it's just breaking something down. If you set a goal for yourself and you're not getting it done, it's because the goal is too large. And so a step might be, "Today I'm going to spend 15 minutes researching my idea. I'm going to put my idea into the Google Search Engine and see what pops up or today I am going to invite a friend for coffee, and I'm going to say, Hey, I've had this idea about starting a business can I share it with you?" And whatever it is, come up with a whole set of micro-steps. And once you do one, you can set the other. Your first steps are going to be around one to four, which is knowing yourself, speaking it, writing it, researching it. And those are easy steps to get started because they just rely on you and they cost you absolutely no money, but I encourage you to write yourself a set of goals. And then I'm also a very big fan of accountability. So that's why we say we're personal trainers for people's ideas. You can use your friends, you can use Facebook groups. I'm not a big fan of using family for accountability. I feel like familial relationships are very loaded. And while it's great to talk about an idea with a spouse or a partner or a sibling, it can get a little loaded. Their responses to you and your responses to them. So I would encourage you to actually find somebody that you know professionally who's interacted with you in a different capacity in your life or a fellow mom and become co-mentors. I actually have a co-mentor and we have talked every three weeks for the last off and on for the last 25 years. We worked at our first job out of college together. She also does her own thing. Her name's Sarah Leslie. Hey, Sarah. And she has a great company called In Other Words out in California. And at times when I was solo working and didn't have a business partner, it was very helpful to set accountability for myself and say, "Okay, I'm going to do these things." And then in three weeks she would be like, "Hey, did you do those things?" We wrote an article in Fast Company about it, which I can send you the link to about being a co-mentor. And then I think that goes along with just don't ghost yourself. Honor yourself and your time. If you put time on your calendar to do something for your idea, whether it's to do research or to write something or to spend some time sketching out your idea, don't let that time drift. Just like when we set time for ourselves to work out, you need to honor that time because it's really important. And I find moms often put their selves on the back burner and something that has no immediate payoff can feel like it's easy to push, but I would encourage you to set small time increments and honor those time increments. Doryn Wallach: I love that. I love that. That's so important. You've put it on your calendar. I mean, that's what I do with certain things. It's like, it's a meditation. I stick it in my calendar because I just have to by myself then I don't make any plans around that time. I think it's so important to do that. Not just with this, with so many other things so that we remember ourselves. When I first started out, I had a mentor who had been in the industry and she wasn't a designer. She worked with designers and unfortunately she passed away, but she was really instrumental in helping me in the beginning. But as I went in to the business a little bit more, I really gravitated towards the designers that were not jealous and caddy and were helpful and I have a very good friend who's an extraordinarily talented designer. Her name is Melissa Kay. And I actually out of all designers besides my own work, I own a few of her pieces because I love her work. It wasn't until later in my career that I found her, but such a great person to bounce things off of and to look at what I was doing compared to what she was doing and be able to explain after getting to know me why it wouldn't work for me. That was so interesting. So it was, it was almost a friendship. It is a friendship, but it was also helpful to have somebody who's doing exactly what you're doing without any competition or jealousy or anything like that. Dawn Nadeau: I would also say to build on that, if you don't have anyone in your current network or community who is a founder or does exactly what you want, just pick a friend and ask them to hold you accountable. Pick your best friend and say, "Look, I really want to do this thing and I need to get started and I need you to just have a call with me in two weeks and I'm going to do these five things and make sure I've done them." Because the first couple weeks and months of a new idea are the times when you're so likely to ghost yourself and let it go and not push through because it's very uncomfortable in that empty space and you feel very vulnerable and you feel stupid because you don't know. I mean, I've taught myself how to do so many things that I didn't know using the Google. I didn't know when I first created a... Actually, I didn't know how to get a barcode. The factory that hired was like, "Okay, send the barcode art." And I was like, "Huh." And they're like, "The barcode art." And I was like, "Sure, I know the barcode art." Googling. I'm like, "How do you get a barcode?" Who knew? There's like one organization that gives barcodes and you have to pay for them. And so I had to learn all about barcodes and that was like pretty far down the path. I was still learning. Also, I would find people on LinkedIn, when I was trying to learn about plastics manufacturing and I knew absolutely nothing. I would ask people who seem to be experts professors in the field, if they would just talk to me for 15 minutes and let me ask a few questions. And that was incredibly helpful to learning the jargon and the issues and some of the questions that might come up and people are willing to talk if you're respectful of their time, and you're asking very focused questions. So there was a lot out there and I think you can take advantage of the Goodwill that people have because you can pay it back and pay it forward when the opportunity comes to you. Doryn Wallach: And I think that's the difference between starting a business when you're younger and when you're older. Because I think that when I was younger, I was definitely a little bit more entitled, thought I knew it all and was stubborn. So I would never go do that research. I did a little research, but I knew what I was doing. Whereas now we realize we don't know much and we're not embarrassed to figure out to say, we don't know what we're doing and we need help and we need to go to people and find out how to do that. So it's funny when I think back. I cringe a little bit. Dawn Nadeau: I know. I don't think I would go back to my 20s other than for my boobs for anything on the face of the planet. Doryn Wallach: I have to agree with that. Yeah, I agree. Dawn Nadeau: I should have taken a picture of them when I was 20. That's a whole another podcast. Doryn Wallach: You appreciated your boobs in your 20s. Just appreciate everything. Dawn Nadeau: I know, man. Doryn Wallach: Youth is wasted on the [crosstalk 00:37:17] Dawn Nadeau: The elasticity of the skin. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. Anyway, so I had a funny question for you. Do you ever get someone who comes to you and you're just like, "No. I can't help you with this idea." Dawn Nadeau: I've gotten people that I think I can't help you with the idea. So I do think it's a personality question. I mean, yes. And some people have come to me with really stupid ideas. If the idea is stupid but the person is reasonable, you can say, "Here's the reasons why I think there might be some challenges with what you're proposing, but it sounds like you're really committed to being a founder. Talk to me more about what you want to do and why you want to do it and what you're really good at." And sometimes we can find another idea that is just either a tweak on the existing one or a better fit for their skills and talents and what they have to offer the world. Then there are people who come and actually not that many because these types of people always think they know it anyway, who just don't have the temperament and the attitude is not one that I think is a good chemistry fit. And in that case, we are usually like, "That sounds like a great idea. It's little bit too big or too complicated for us to help you in Godspeed." Because I do think that you have to be willing to know what you don't know to be a founder. And like you were just saying, you really have to understand that you're going to have to ask a lot of questions and there is no way to know at all. And also people who think they're going to make a million dollars within the first three months. I'm not saying those ideas do not exist out there, but you can not go in thinking you've got a Unicorn because that is a hard way to start a business. Doryn Wallach: My first mentor said to me, "It takes three to five years to be an overnight success." And then my father and brother who were both entrepreneurs, both told me that you are probably going to make a mistake almost every month of your business and you just learn from those mistakes and you move forward and those mistakes are what are going to make you more successful. But no, one's going to go into doing a business and do it perfectly, even if they have you behind them, which is amazing and wonderful that you're doing this. But it's just the way it goes. That's life, right? I mean, that's how life is. Dawn Nadeau: Absolutely. Doryn Wallach: Well, I love that you're doing this and I just wish you so much success with it because I think especially now women really need this. And with all of your experience and your wisdom, this is just going to take off and it already has taken off, but I think even more so. Dawn Nadeau: Thanks. Doryn Wallach: Dawn and Elizabeth are offering a very generous discount or do you want to tell everybody about it? Dawn Nadeau: Yeah. So we're going to offer 15% off any service on our site. We offer a couple of services, but the one that might be really exciting based on this call is we have a one-hour side hustle starter session. It's really just a one hour call with the two of us. It includes a pre-call survey. So you get a chance to write down your idea. We do an in-depth conversation, which we record. We give you specific feedback and triage of the business idea, and then afterwards, we give you an action plan with suggested next steps. And that's just like a 60 minute sort of like, if you're going to go for a nutrition consultation with a nutritionist or a personal trainer, we're going to give you the idea and say, "Here's your plan." And then obviously we work with people going forward. But it's 15% off of anything on the website. We also offer a resume coaching and people who are making career changes and we do offer company and product naming services. So we do that as well if somebody needs a name for the business. But 15% off of anything, use the code Not a Crisis. Doryn Wallach: Not a Crisis. What do you think of my podcast name? Dawn Nadeau: I love it. Doryn Wallach: I had to do an explanation on social media the other day, because I had some woman who contacted me. She wasn't a listener, but she started saying, I don't know why you're saying It's Not A Crisis. The world is in crisis. Women's rights are in crisis. Everything is in crisis. How can you say It's Not A Crisis? And I said, "The point is, it's not a midlife crisis. It's a midlife transition." I don't like the word midlife crisis. And so that's why we call it, It's Not A Crisis. And how do we look at this positively and try to make the most of it? Dawn Nadeau: No I think it's great because I think it makes you, I've said before, great names make you lean in as if you're going to be told a secret and you want to hear a little more and I feel it's a lean in name. Doryn Wallach: Well, good. Good. I'm glad to hear that. Can you also tell... I will have this in the show notes as well as my website, but your website is... Dawn Nadeau: twocentsriot.com. Doryn Wallach: Okay. Easy enough. Dawn, thank you so much for coming on today. Dawn Nadeau: Thank you. Doryn Wallach: This is so much fun. And by the way, you want to work with Dawn because she's just a really fun person and you'll become friends and laugh and she'll let her real side out. Dawn Nadeau: That's right. Doryn Wallach: Which is my favorite. Okay. Well thank you again. And if there are any follow up questions, are you okay with me forwarding those off to you? Dawn Nadeau: Please send them or anyone can email me, I'm dawn@twocentsriot.com or info@twocentsriot.com. We're always here and happy to talk to anybody about anything. We also offer 20 minutes just looking sessions. So if somebody wants to book just 20 minutes, we'll talk to anybody. Doryn Wallach: Okay, great. Thank you so much for listening. Remember to give yourself permission and know that you are not alone. Don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any episodes. Reviews are always appreciated and you can reach me by email at it'snotacrisis@gmail, Instagram It's Not A Crisis Podcast. And please join our Facebook group as well. Until next time, just remember, it's not a crisis.

EPISODE 13 In this episode, Doryn is joined by Litsa Williams of What’s Your Grief as they discuss what defines grief and the way that everybody goes through it. Grief is not what people traditionally think it is. It’s much more than suffering from the loss of a loved one. It’s actually a transition, much like midlife. This episode will open up a whole new perspective on what grief is and how it works through various stages of life. Litsa Williams is a cofounder of the grief community What's Your Grief. She has been working in the field of grief and loss for 12 years before founding this community. What's Your Grief offers in-person support, including workshops, trainings and support groups, plus online support, including articles on all topics around grief and loss, a weekly podcast and online courses. For any of Litsa's online grief support courses or webinars register with the coupon code "itsnotacrisis" for 20% off! Be sure to check out the resources mentioned in the episode: www.whatsyourgrief.com www.tenpercent.com drkendoka.com EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Doryn Wallach: Welcome to It's Not A Crisis, I am your host Doryn Wallach. I'm an entrepreneur, a mother of two, a wife and a 40 something, trying to figure out what is happening in this decade. Why is no one talking about it? I created this podcast to help women in their late 30s and 40s to figure out what is going on in our mind, body, soul, and life. We may laugh, we may cry, we may get frustrated, but most importantly, my goal is to make this next chapter of life positive. I'm also full of my own questions, and I'm here to go on this journey with you. So let's do it together. Hey, everyone. Welcome to another episode and another week, I'm so happy to have you join me today. Today's topic is really, really interesting, and it sparked my interest because I was listening to a podcast right after the pandemic on Ten Percent Happier, which is an amazing podcast and wonderful meditation app. I don't say that about meditation apps, I really dislike meditating, but Ten Percent gets to the point, it gives you advice, it's wonderful, I really like it. Dan Harris, on Ten Percent was interviewing a gentleman by the name of David Kessler, and David Kessler is a grief expert. David was speaking about grief in terms of how our lives were before the pandemic and what we were grieving and what we were going through in this time of our life. It really spoke to me, it was so fascinating because I think I just always thought of grief as losing somebody. So, that got me to thinking about our lives and our age and what grief means to us. So, I did my research and I found Litsa Williams of What's Your Grief. We're going to talk today about all kinds of grief. I think this is very important as our lives go forward because we are grieving our past or what could have been, we're grieving the future, we're grieving our parents aging, we're grieving our kids getting older and we're experiencing death within our friend groups with either their parents. In my three years of being in my 40s, unfortunately I've had a friend lose a husband suddenly, I've had a friend lose a child, I've had friends who have friends that have passed away from cancer. There's so much to this topic and there's so much to uncover, but I really hope that we will touch on as much as we can, and I'm very excited about Litsa coming on. But today we're going to piece it all together and talk a little bit about this, and hopefully if it's a show that you enjoy, we can also have a followup with Litsa maybe in her Instagram or her Facebook live. Litsa Williams is a co-founder of the grief community, What's Your Grief. Litsa has worked in the field of grief and loss for 12 years before founding What's Your Grief. In that time, Litsa supported patients and families in the hospital at end of life, in circumstances of unexpected death and provided ongoing grief and bereavement support. Feeling frustrated with the online and print materials that were available for grievers, she co-founded What's Your Grief as a resource offering concrete, practical, creative, down to earth and relatable grief support. What's Your Grief offers in-person support, including workshops, trainings, and support groups, online support, including hundreds of articles on all topics around grief and loss, a weekly podcast and online courses. She has been interviewed as a grief expert for NPR, Washington Post, U.S. News, The New York Times, Huffington Post and the BBC, and I am very excited to welcome Litsa into the show today. I'm very honored that she chose to come on It's Not A Crisis. Litsa, welcome to the show. Litsa Williams: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Doryn Wallach: This is going to be a great episode. I was joking with a friend the other day that some of my episodes are just kind of people listening in on therapy sessions. I don't want to make that about ... it's not about me, I do have things to add, but it's so therapeutic for me as well because I'm learning along with everybody else. So, this topic I think is so relevant to women in their late 30s and 40s. I think I just want to start with the simple question of what is grief? How do you define grief? Litsa Williams: Sure. It's really interesting. I think even though we think of grief as this huge big overwhelming thing, the definition that I use is really simple, which is, just that grief is our normal and natural response to loss, and that is any kind of loss. So, it's actually a really straightforward definition. I think the trick is that response, that word, our response to loss or a reaction to loss, that can comprise so many different things. All of the mess of grief lives within that. But really the key is that it's a natural process, it's this normal thing that happens to us when we lose a person or we lose something that's important to us, something else in our lives. So, it's pretty straightforward and pretty complicated all at once. Doryn Wallach: Yeah, it definitely is. You just mentioned normal grief. What is normal grief? Litsa Williams: I think this is probably one of the trickiest questions for people, because I think we are always on this quest for like, "What is normal? Am I doing this right? Am I doing this wrong? Am I going crazy? Am I losing my mind?" Doryn Wallach: Every single day, every single day, that goes through my head. Litsa Williams: Same, same. So, I think there has always been this want to determine what normal grief is all about, and I think when we look back to the earliest, the models of how we understood grief and define grief, we go back to the 60s, and Elisabeth Kübler-Ross and the five stages of grief and all of those ideas where we wanted a nice, neat, little formula to say, "Okay, here's what grief is going to look like. We're going to go through these nice, neat, tidy little stages, we're going to get to acceptance, we're going to put it behind us and move on." People for a long time, really clung to that. I think in a lot of ways, society still thinks that normal grief must be that, it must be going through these five stages and finally getting to a point of closure or acceptance or moving on, and that's what grief is going to look like. Often we think grief is all about sadness. Maybe we throw in a little bit of anger, but for the most part, I think that's what society still thinks of as grief. What we in mental health think of as normal grief is very, very different than that. We've come a long way from those days of stage, models and task models, and really recognize that grief looks very, very, very different for everyone, and it's not just one particular set of emotional responses. It is thoughts and feelings and behaviors, and it is like all of the very mixed up things that happen after we lose someone or something, and then we try to reconstruct our world after that person or that thing has disappeared. So, grief is really that process of reconstruction that is in many ways ongoing forever. So, normally when we talk about normal grief, there's no easy way to say what it's going to look like because each person and their background and their coping skills and their own resilience and their own support system and what loss they've suffered looks so different. That the way that we reconstruct, the way we keep our connections to people who have died, the way that we build a life after difficult or traumatic event that's happened, it looks really, really different. So, I wish I could say there's an easy answer to what is normal grief. But I think the biggest takeaway that we have is that there's no timeline for it, it is something that is an ongoing process, that really is about how we integrate our loss into our lives moving forward. So, that's kind of the slightly complicated answer, and I think it's the one that people don't like, because they're like, "No, go through the checklist and tell me what's normal." But unfortunately we can't really do that. We can say a little bit about when maybe you need extra support or when it's getting to a point where it's so problematic that it's interfering with your day-to-day life. So it's almost easier to say what's outside of normal than what's normal. Doryn Wallach: That is very complicated, and I think that when we were speaking prior to this, you had mentioned to me, grief can even be good change in life, and I thought that was so interesting because I don't think I ever personally had a word to cover those feelings related to positive things happening in life, which we're conditioned to be grateful and happy and these big transitions, whether it's having a baby or getting married or all of these other things, and sometimes we don't feel so happy about it. Sometimes just the change in general causes us to feel, I guess, in a way that we're grieving what was before that ... Can you go a little bit more into that? Litsa Williams: Yeah, absolutely. So, Ken Doka is this famous Greece researcher, and he's really the first person that have articulated this really simple idea that, any time we have change, even when it's positive change, there are things that we lose in order for us to move forward with change, and anytime we have loss, we have grief. So, when we think about those things that you just described, those positive changes in life, in order for us to make space for those new things, we often have to say goodbye to certain other things, right? When we get married, it's this wonderful experience, and everybody's focusing on how great it is that you're getting married, but you're leaving behind this world and life of being a person who was single, maybe who had a different independence or way of thinking about their life planning that now we're taking other people into account all the time, and there are things that we let go of that we have to acknowledge and say like, as much as we love this new thing that's happening, we also need to give ourselves the time and space to grieve what we're leaving behind. I think that that happens when people have kids, when we graduate from college and we're looking forward and everybody is excited about next steps while leaving behind the things before, all these different moments in life, I think creating a space where we acknowledge both is so important, but it's often not what we do. Oftentimes we think, "Okay, this is all about the good experience, this is all about the exciting thing that's happening." And we don't create a space to normalize and talk about and acknowledge, we can feel two things at once, we can feel really happy and thrilled and excited and wonderful, and we can also be really sad and struggling with some of the things that we had to let go of in order to create a space for these new things. Doryn Wallach: I also think we're of this generation of guilt. We have been given opportunities and whatever those opportunities are, we need to be grateful for them. I think that brings inner anxiety and sadness to so many women, because we can't admit that while we have X, Y, and Z, we may miss everything else. I have friends who, including myself, very happily married for many years. Once you have kids and everybody sucks the life out of you, there are moments that we grief our lives when we were just coming home. Personally I would come home and watch Sex and the City and eat pasta and have some red wine and talk to nobody. Those days, I miss those a little bit, but I think women are afraid to admit that they had those moments or they have those moments, and I think it continues through your life. I think this is something that we just need to learn to embrace. Litsa Williams: Absolutely. I think acknowledge, right, that there are so many lives worth living and we have the life that we're living right now, but there's always those moments where we think, "I love many things about this life, but there's this alternate life or this life that used to exist for me, and that life was amazing and wonderful and valuable too, or could have been amazing and wonderful and valuable." I think that sometimes we really struggle with that because we think, "Wow, if I spend time acknowledging that or talking about that, it seems like I'm not grateful for what I have right now." When that's not the truth, we can wholly feel. I feel like sometimes it's like my mantra to people of like, we can wholly feel two feelings at the same time, being able to feel a sense of loss about something doesn't mean we're not feeling a deep gratitude about the thing that we have. We can feel both of those things simultaneously, and it's important that we acknowledge that and that we give it space. Doryn Wallach: I love that. I'd love to touch on something that's very relevant right now. I try to not bring too much of the pandemic into my podcasts because I hope that these will go on for a very long time and people will be able to always listen. However, the pandemic is changing our lives, and the reason that podcasts spoke to me, was talking about that we were all grieving what was before the pandemic. Like everybody, I have my days where I'm like, "Wow, you know what? I've learned something so positive out of this. I'm taking it easy on my kids and I'm taking more time for me, and I'm rethinking my career." There are all these positive things that have come out of it. Then I have the other days where I'm like, "This sucks." The uncertainty and things that we've had to miss, and places we can't go, and friends that we can't see, the feeling of anxiety of not being able to do anything without feeling a little anxious right now and missing so much. At the same time, it's weird. I don't really want to go back to some of those things. What have you seen from grieving as far as COVID goes? Litsa Williams: Sure. I mean, there's so much within this because I feel like when I look at what people are coping with and feeling about these losses and that feeling of looking back at the world before the pandemic, I think there is exactly what you described, this feeling of longing or that yearning to go back to my comfortable, predictable life that existed before the pandemic, where I knew what school looked like for the kids, I knew what my job looked like, I felt all of those comfortable things that were easy. Then also feeling like, "Well, no, but there's great things that have happened as well." So I think there's a lot of people who are feeling that combination. I think where we are right now, in the stage of time that's interesting is, I think many people have accepted. It's never going to go back to exactly what it looked like before. So I think that's causing this new round of feelings for all of those people who are like, "I'm just going to wait this out." Right? "I'm just going to wait it out and then it's going to go back to normal." Now people are facing this idea of like, "Okay, it's not going to go back to normal." At least, maybe not anytime soon, which is both anxiety inducing and at the same time, it creates this amazing new space to say, "Okay, now I really get to define what I want it to look like going forward. I'm not just waiting it out anymore. I can create some new balance." So I think that in many ways is hard, but can be for people really empowering to say, "I'm going to just start to actively redefine what I want it to look like going forward." The biggest thing that I think is one of the reasons I'm really glad that you wanted to talk about this topic, I think one of the things that we're seeing from so many people is, there's this awareness that right now during COVID, there are people with worse losses, right? There are people who experienced the death of a loved one, the death of multiple loved ones, have lost jobs, have had multiple family members lose jobs. So, oftentimes I think we're seeing people who are talking around how much they're struggling, but wanting, back to your point about gratitude, wanting to be like, "I can't say that out loud because I should be focusing on all the things that I am grateful that I do have, and that I haven't gone through maybe losses that are as bad as someone else's losses." One of the things that we always like to remind people is that tendency to compare, we do that in life in so many different ways. But if we're talking about grief, if we're talking about loss at any moment, we're always going to be able to find someone who has lost more than that we have lost, who's gone through something harder than we have gone through, but that doesn't invalidate what we're going through. We can both, again, feel grateful for what we have in this moment while also creating that space to say, "These are real insignificant losses. If I didn't get to see my child graduate from high school the way I thought that I always would, walking across the stage in the traditional way." That's a real loss, and it might not be the same severity as some of these greater losses that we're hearing about, but I still need to give myself space to acknowledge the reality of that. David Kessler, who you listened to, and you referenced one thing about him that I love, that he says often, as he says, over my many years of working in the field of grief, people will often say to me, "What type of grief is the worst grief? What type of loss is the worst loss? Is it losing a child? What is it?" David Kessler always says, "Your loss is the worst loss." I love that because when we're going through something in a moment, like that's what we're going through, and we need to be able to create a space to be able to acknowledge it while still having that gratitude at the same time. Doryn Wallach: I think that's very ... again, speaking to our generation, I think we are this generation that is supposed to commonly say, "Oh, but I'm so lucky." I think we were raised like that. I think a lot of us, I'm not saying everybody. But I have to tell you something in relation to what you just said, two things. Many years ago in New York City, there was Hurricane Sandy, which devastated a lot of Manhattan, and we live in a townhouse right near the river. But when I was an interior designer, I'd spent two years renovating, gutting this house. About four weeks after I finally finished, Sandy came and dumped about almost five feet of water in our house and going down our stairwell, like a waterfall, all of our furniture was underwater. I was so scared. I didn't have a lot of empathy from people after that. I think they were like, "Oh, well." We were very fortunate financially, so we were able to build it back, but it was a lot of money that we didn't have. It was not just money, it was that my home was destroyed, the place where my kids were playing the day before and my life ... I was bouncing around from place to place for seven weeks, trying to find somewhere to live. Our lives were just in such upheaval, and it was a really traumatic time in my life. I even remember the day after I went out to Long Island where they had it worse than we did, and I volunteered. I mean, looking back now, I started getting into this huge project and helping everybody out there because I felt like, "Oh, they are so much worse off than I am. I need to go help them." It's sad to me when I look back that I wasn't able to just go through my own grief of what I had lost and trauma of what I experienced. Part of that was my own fault, part of that was me feeling otherwise. I should be grateful, look at these people, they have nothing and their homes are destroyed and they're burned down or whatever. Litsa Williams: I think that it's really interesting when we talk about in grief and loss, when we talk about the word avoidance, I think a lot of times people think avoidance is about drinking or sleeping too much or zoning out and watching Netflix for hours and hours, avoidance of difficult things we're going through. I think we think that it's going to be some obvious negative coping, but the reality is, oftentimes when people go through things that are really, really difficult, one of the ways that people will avoid is by externalizing and focusing on helping other people. So like with death related losses, a lot of times we'll see, if somebody loses a partner, suddenly all of their emphasis becomes about how their kids are doing. So, rather than tending to their own grief, they start just completely focusing on their kids, or within just weeks of a death, they'll become incredibly involved with volunteer work, maybe around the disease that the person died of or something like that. In many ways, other people externally are like rewarding you for that. They're like, "Oh my God, great job. You're going out there helping, you're helping these other people who've lost everything-" Doryn Wallach: You're so strong. Litsa Williams: You're so strong, you're doing all this great stuff. You've had this flood in your house, and yet you're still out there. So you're getting all this amazing positive reinforcement from other people. And oftentimes it is helpful on some level, right? For yourself, and it is keeping busy, it is sometimes giving you perspective. Like it's not to devalue it just because there's pieces of it that are avoidant. But oftentimes what is going on is that, it's avoidance. It's like, "Okay, if I throw myself into this, then it will allow me to take myself away from my own pain and my own reality of what I'm trying to deal with and the feelings that maybe I really need to feel and spend time with." So, we always really encourage people if they're having that inclination immediately after something devastating has happened to completely start focusing on helping others. We don't want to say don't help others. That sounds terrible. Right? But we do want to say, make sure you're taking a step back and creating space for your own loss and your own feelings and your own potential trauma or your own ... the depths of your own grief, because that's important, it's important that you spend that time with that, because that's going to be what helps you integrate and be able to pick that up and move forward with it as you go down the road. Doryn Wallach: I think as women, we need to be supportive of our friends going through those things. We need to say to them, "You don't have to do this right now. You should focus on yourself, you should focus on your loss and all this other stuff can come later." I think it's up to us. I think it's very hard for women to make that move or that decision on their own. I think we need permission sometimes. Litsa Williams: Oh, I completely agree. Then that idea of like, you're being so strong, you're being this, you're being that, being careful of our own language when we ask women ... it's often women who respond to us, it's not all women, but when we ask people about things that other people said that helped them or hurt them when they were going through difficult times, many people will say other people thinking they were being supportive by saying like, "You're being so strong, you're being so brave, you're doing all these things." Those things actually really were difficult for them because it made them feel like they couldn't break down or they couldn't take a break from what they were doing. They had to just keep putting on that face. When the reality, I think, is like, when I look at my friends, the friends who have been through things that are difficult and devastating, and who have been able to say, "I'm tapping out for a while, I have to take a break from work, volunteering stuff with my kids school." All of that. I need to just take time and space for my grief. I'm like, "You're the strong one, to do that, to be a woman who's in a place to be able to say, I know when I need to tap out." That's, I think, really impressive and really difficult for most women. Doryn Wallach: I have a friend who lost a child a couple years ago, and I don't think any of us can ever fathom going through that or understanding that experience. But maybe a year after, she was telling me the story about how she was in a school. I don't know if it was like a group or a PTA or something that somebody asked her to join, and they were all sitting around the table and talking about whatever subject they were talking about, that completely felt trivial to her at this time of her life which understandably. She told me that, "I just stood up and I looked around the room and I was like, I'm leaving, I have no interest in this. I'm done." She just flipped out and I was like, "Good for you." I mean, clearly her perspective on life has changed drastically. I was so proud of her because it was a moment where she realized that like, "I don't want to do this, I'm not going to do this. This is not what I need in my life right now. I don't believe in this and I'm out of here." Litsa Williams: Absolutely. I love that. I think a lot of people, when they reflect on going through a loss, going through some devastating life event. When you ask people about meaning or growth or things that have come from it, not that you need to find meaning and growth out of your loss, I'd like to be very clear, but if you do find people who find that and had those moments, many times they're like, "It helped me to prioritize many things in my life. It allowed me to see which relationships and friendships were the most meaningful, and it allowed me to see where I really wanted to spend my time and where I didn't want to spend my time. It allowed me to reassess my life through this new lens." That's really valuable. So oftentimes when we talk about post-traumatic growth, what happens is people will say, "I have fewer friendships than I had before, but they are far more meaningful friendships than the friendships I had before. Maybe I'm involved in far fewer activities and volunteer work and different things than I was before. But I'm so much more invested and committed in the things that I do now, because this event helped me to really prioritize my life in a way that I wasn't doing before the loss happened." Doryn Wallach: I'm feeling that way about COVID honestly, about friendships and relationships. I have really been re-evaluating my career in this whole thing. And I don't know if you know, but I'm a fine jewelry designer by day, I've been doing that for seven years. Before the pandemic, it was something that I was unsure about. I knew I loved to doing it, but I felt like it took a lot of my time and energy, it costs a lot of money to keep the business going. I really was thinking about slowing it down, but very torn because my jewelry does have a reputation and I have clients. So, how can I make a choice for myself that is not thinking about these other people? Then COVID happened, and it took me a while until recently. I fortunately started this podcast during this time too, which I'm so passionate about and I love doing so much. I've decided now to restructure my business and change it despite consultants and despite people telling me, "Well, but you have this, you have that dah, dah, dah, dah." I finally come to acceptance with it, but there is this grief of, "Oh gosh, I'm not where I was a few years ago with even just the way I felt about it, and how will my life change because of this? Am I making the right decision?" I guess, grieving my former career, if that makes any sense, and I think there are a lot of things similar to that. Litsa Williams: Oh yeah. I mean, our careers for so many of us, our identity is wrapped up in many ways in our careers. So we say our career and I think it sounds oftentimes like this thing that's external to ourselves, but many times we start to deeply identify with that career, and we have this very specific idea in mind, especially if you have a business and your career is connected with that of, "This is what this is going to look like. This is what I want to achieve, this is something that I imagine probably when you first started in it, were really excited and passionate about, and had a long-term vision for." It's really difficult when that suddenly starts to shift because suddenly it feels like, "Oh, but this was how it was supposed to be. This was what I imagined. These were all the markers of if it had been successful in the way I wanted it to be I would still be passionate. I'd still be excited. I would still be all of these things." So, letting go of that is ... It's work. I mean, it really is. It's saying, "Okay, now I have to start to acknowledge that there are things about this that are important for me to lose, because I want to create space for other things that for me now carry the value and the weight and the passion and the excitement." That might mean shifting the business and doing things differently. But values work is something that we talk about in mental health a lot, which is really sitting down and drilling into like, "What are my values? What are the values that are most important to me, and how are they corresponding with my time? If I look literally minute by minute in my day, and I connect it back to my values, how much of my time is being spent on the things that I'm most excited and passionate about?" We know that people who have the highest sense of wellbeing usually have the greatest connection between their time and their values and people who are often struggling with a feeling of wellbeing, your meaning, your purpose or connection are often people whose time in their day isn't really connecting to the things that are their highest values. And because values change, that means sometimes we set up a life where all our time is connected to one set of values, and when the values change, we have to reconstruct our lives to match those new values. Doryn Wallach: I love that. I mean, that advice is going to go a long way for so many women. One of the things that you had mentioned before, and I wanted to talk about, because I think there are a lot of women that are feeling this, two subjects. One is our parents. I have step-parents, they range from 73 to 85, my father-in-law. It's not easy seeing them age right now. I think seeing them sometimes need us a little bit more while we still need them. Personally, I grief that in the years where my parents maybe were feeling a little bit better, had a little bit more energy, that's when I had little kids and I was focused on them. I didn't take the time to really appreciate those times with my parents. Now that they're getting older, it's scary. You're grieving them even when they're still here, because it's sad and it's scary to see them changing, and the fear of what is going to be in the future. Is this something you commonly hear from women? Litsa Williams: Absolutely. I think we hear this and there's the extreme, the most extreme versions of this, which we are actually ... there's like a label for in the grief world, which is ambiguous loss, which they talk about as grieving someone who is still alive, and there's kind of degrees in which that happens. But I think what you're talking about, even in the earliest stages of really being aware of our parents aging and starting to see that and feel the way it's affecting how we spend time together, what maybe they have the ability to do in terms of maybe traveling or even just going for a walk or a hike or what they have the energy for. When we start to see those things, like we had described, grief is a reaction to a loss, and that's something that we're losing, right? We're watching them lose maybe a little bit of their energy or their health or their independence, and we're losing our ability to interact with them in those ways that were maybe the really comfortable ways that we loved and enjoyed spending time with them. Now it's having to evolve into something new and something different. I think loss can feel really profound, because when we look at our lives with our parents, I think one thing ... Oftentimes when we talk to people who've lost parents, especially who've lost both of their parents. They'll often say, one thing that people minimize is losing your parents because people think, "Well, your parents are supposed to die before you, you know your parents are going to die. You know they're older, you should have anticipated that." What people will often say is, the world seems to underestimate that I've lived 30, 40, 50, 60, 70 years of my life and never not had my parents there, they've always been there. So, when we start to feel it changing, then we start to then really confront that reality of like, "Oh, we're feeling this change, we're having to change the way we spend time with them." And we become more and more aware of their mortality and that they're not going to be here forever, and we start to feel the weight of that. So, I think it's really tricky and there's no easy answers to it. But one thing that we really encourage people to do, and that a lot of the research shows is really valuable is, if we get stuck on what we've lost or the time wishing like we said, those regrets of, I wish I'd spent more time with them eight years ago when they still had ability to travel or ability to whatever else it might be. If I get stuck on that, then I don't spend the time reinventing what the present looks like and saying, "Okay, we're not going to do the same things that we were doing 8, 10, 15 years ago together, but what are we going to do now? How do we really take advantage of this moment and realize that it might look completely different than the past?" That's okay, it's going to be a new way of having a relationship and then it will keep evolving as they age. So, the more that we can do to stay in the present with it and not get too lost in the regrets of what we wish we had done five years ago with them, or our fears about what things are going to look like in five years from now, that's what's going to help us to really take advantage of the time that we have and be creative with it. Doryn Wallach: I think that relates also to the other topic I was going to bring up, which is your children getting older. All of a sudden my daughter's 13, and I'm like, "What just happened? How did this happen?" I see her pulling away from me as she should, she's a teenager and wanting her own independence. You know how when your kids are little and everyone's like, "Take advantage of it, suck it up." Just enjoy every bad moment in your kids like in the supermarket, hysterically crying on the floor, throwing things. And you're like, "Shut the fuck up." Litsa Williams: Absolutely not, I'm just going to wish this moment to end. Doryn Wallach: Right [crosstalk 00:36:14] those moms saying that, however, I would never do that to another woman in that moment. Litsa Williams: Sure. Doryn Wallach: I understand it. It's very hard to understand that when you're in that moment, but it does sneak up on you so quickly. I hate to sound like that woman who says that, but I does. I think with what you just said about our parents, I really try to say, "Okay, you know what? You didn't love the toddler stage, they are cute and everything." But that was not my favorite stage. I actually enjoy spending time with my teenage daughter now, whether she wants to be with me or not. My son, who's 10 years old, I am liking this age a lot more. So, I try to look at it in that way instead of being like, "Oh my gosh, she's going to be out of the house in a few years." Then I try to say, "What's that going to look like for me? May be my life begins in a different way at that point." So that's how I cope with it. I don't know if that would be your advice, but I think a lot of women are feeling this now with their kids getting older and them needing them less and us all of a sudden having to think about ourselves and like, "Who are we? What are we? This is depressing. What are we going to be?" Litsa Williams: Yeah, absolutely. Again, like that identity piece. When we talk about the fact, like what are our roles? There is no role that we as human beings have that becomes more consuming than the role of a parent, right? As a parent, that is something where so much becomes defined by that caregiving and nurturing and support and everything that goes into parenting. That moment where it's like, "Oh, wow, my child doesn't need me in the same way, and now I'm really looking at what that's going to mean in five years from now." That's a big space me to cope with and acknowledge the loss. That it's hard to say, "Wow, this is changing." Also, again, reconnect with what those values are and who am I as a human being apart from my role as a parent and my space as a parent and start to reconnect with that. We encourage people, I don't want people to get lost in the future of like, "Oh gosh, in five years, my kids are going to be out of the house." But there is value in thinking about it before the moment that it happens. Because what we do know is that for parents who don't really think about what life will look like after the kids are gone, and then they're gone and suddenly there's an overwhelming feeling of, "What do I do now? How do I fill this space now? What am I connected to? What's important? What are my values? What are my hobbies? What is driving me, getting me going now?" It's important to think about that in advance, because when it comes up for the first time when they're gone, that's when we see people really start to struggle to figure it out. So, it can help to be thinking about it in advance while still making sure to take advantage of the wonderful though complicated teenage years. Doryn Wallach: Yes. That's why I created this podcast, because I think we need to think about this now and prepare, but at the same time, have some plan and not just all of a sudden say, "Oh my God, here I am. What do I do?" I think it's a very relevant topic to a lot of women. I actually last night was in a support group for parents of teens that I decided to join, I got something in my inbox and I said, "Oh, you know what? I'm going to do this." It was so interesting to see every parent going through the same thing. Like my kid is in their room all day long and I don't know how to get them out, and like taking it personally and they don't want anything to do with me. It's so relevant to what's happening in their lives right now. Litsa Williams: Oh yeah. I think they are like that, one of the wonderful things about support groups is, there's value in shared suffering when we realize it's not just our kid and we're not the only one going through it, like that helps to know. I think the other thing that's complicated right of the adolescent, early teenage years, there's this very normal developmental stage that happens then where kids will ... I think in mental health and development, they'll often talk about creating false selves, where it's very normal that kids are trying on different selves. So it's the reason that they'll feel like, "Wow, they're one way with me, but then I see them with another adult and they're this completely different, charming, lovely person, and then with me, they're this angsty angry kid, and then at soccer practice, they're one way. Then when they're with this group of friends they're in another way. You feel like, "Oh my God, why does it feel like my child has split into four different children with different personalities?" That's a normal part of development that they seek feedback and then settles out more into a singular identity. But I think it makes it even more complicated for parents at that age, because you're like, "I can't even wrap my head around." You're in your room all the time, when you come out, I'm not sure which version of you I'm going to get. That becomes really challenging as a parent because you're trying to keep up with all those different false selves that kids are creating until they level out into their more singular identity. Doryn Wallach: I always try to say, "Remember you're 13, remember you're 13." I try to put my head back at that age as much as possible. Sometimes that helps, when I say it sticks up on you, I'm still a teenager in my head. How do I have a teenager? [crosstalk 00:41:43] Litsa Williams: Exactly. I think it does, it does really creep up on people. I think it is important to say, "Okay, can I find value in this?" Just as you said, just like, maybe I didn't love the toddler stage. There's stuff about this that I will look back fondly on and be nostalgic about in 10 years. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. When my daughter went to middle school, I got really nostalgic, and I started finding all these old videos and pictures of her. It was when her attitude was changing a little bit, and she's a great kid, she's normal. She's going through all the stages, but I started playing all these baby videos for her. I'm like, "Remember when you loved me, remember when you are so cute." Litsa Williams: Yeah, it's like a personal reassurance. Wait a minute. She did use to really, really want to spend time with me. She used to want to follow me around the house all the time. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. And of course, I probably was complaining about that back then too. Litsa Williams: Oh my gosh, you're like, "I just need some alone time." Doryn Wallach: Yes. The other topic, the last topic I want to ... I could talk to you all day long and I'm sure we're going to have so many follow-up questions from this podcast. I'd love to have you back again. The last question I think a lot of people always are asking is, supporting somebody who is grieving. We touched on this a little bit earlier, but what to say, what not to say? I mean, I had a year where two of my very good friends, one lost her husband suddenly, and one lost her daughter, having not experienced either of those things thankfully, it's difficult to even know what the hell to do or say. Unfortunately, we're seeing things happening more and more. I mean, I have friends who've lost friends to cancer. I had a high school friend few years ago who died suddenly. So, it's happening, we're still young, but it is happening. What do we say? What do we do? What do we not do? That's probably my bigger question. Litsa Williams: Yeah. Actually, I think, saying what we don't do is probably a little bit easier than what we do, because what we do is more based on those personal relationships and knowing that person and their loss and their needs and their style. But I think in terms of what we don't do, or one of our biggest tips is really in terms of reframing your thinking, is we always say the biggest thing to remember is you're not there to provide comfort, you're there to provide support. I think the difference between comfort and support, comfort is when we want to make someone feel better, the reality after a devastating loss, is what people often need is not for ... You can't fix it, you can't make them feel better. You're not going to have some magic words that are going to make this moment feel any less devastating than it is. What we want is people who can be present with that pain that we're going through. Not minimize it, no matter how ugly it is and messy it is, no matter how much we're struggling to feel like that person is going to be there for support. I think that when we reframe that, in many ways, it can be a big relief that like your job is not to find the right words, because there are no right words. So, I think what we often say to avoid, and the things that come out of comfort language that are like the big no nos, often times like anytime you're about to start a sentence with at least, or that idea of at least, just stop because people will often want to be like, "Well, at least he's not suffering anymore. At least he lived a long life. At least you can have other kids." There's this want to find some weird silver lining or sugarcoat a situation which is a huge absolute no, no, because all of those things might be true. You might impact here or the other person say them, in which case, of course, it's okay to follow their lead. But to try to find that silver lining for another person, there is nothing that makes people more angry. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. I know that. Litsa Williams: Those kinds of comments. I think going back to your example of your home and feeling like you didn't get empathy from people, when you had experienced this devastating loss in your own home with the flooding and all the work that had gone into it, I imagined there was probably a lot of that like, "Well, at least you weren't one of the houses that got damaged even more or lost everything. At least you can repair." It's that feeling- Doryn Wallach: That's what I got. Litsa Williams: Yes. They're not seeing what's happening and what you're experiencing and your pain when they're comparing it to someone else or comparing it to what could be "worse" and minimizing it. So I think that's often our number one tip, is don't do that. Doryn Wallach: I just want to add into that, that it wasn't like, "Oh, my decorating was damaged." It was like the baby books I lost and all the things and all the important ... whether we had furniture from family or we had personal items and my office was destroyed and my kids, their home was destroyed and we were gone for a year. So, I just want to make it clear that I wasn't like, "Ooh, my decorating was ruined." Yes, those were the lot of the responses that we got. "Well, at least you have the money to rebuild. At least you're all okay, at least dah, dah, dah, dah." And you just want to slam someone. Can you just say [crosstalk 00:47:30] Litsa Williams: Yeah. Doryn Wallach: Just say this sucks. This sucks. Litsa Williams: Let's just say this absolutely sucks. Exactly. This is absolutely the worst thing ever. I think that when we think about how that can translate into so many different things, and it's often well intentioned, people are trying to find, they're like, "I don't want to see you in this unhappy slump." It's like, "No, I deserve to be in an unhappy slump for a little while, and what I need is to know that you can be right here with me in that slump." It doesn't mean I'm not going to push forward, it means I'm allowed to feel my feelings about just how devastating and awful this situation is. I think that is huge. I think then being able to say to people, you're going to be there for support and mean it, right? That is the trickiest part I think lots of people will say, "I'm here if you need me, let me know what you need." All of those open empty promises. Many people will say, People were there for me for three weeks, and then everyone disappeared." So I think with that often being really concrete and specific, lots of times people who are grieving are like, "Everybody's saying let me know what you need." And I have no idea what I need. So trying to come up with specific suggestions of being able to say like, "Hey, I can take your kids to school every day for the next indefinitely, I can do this for you. I can do your grocery shopping for you." Coming up with things realistically that you can offer to people can sometimes be helpful. Often they really don't know what they need. Then if they haven't taken you up, keep continuing to check in. With my friends, one of the things that I will tell people is, I'm going to check up on you twice a week. I'm going to check in about what you need, what I can do and making offers, seeing if you want to grab coffee, whatever, until you tell me to stop. I think that sometimes we have this idea, "Maybe they need space, maybe I need to give them a little bit of time, give them a little bit of distance." Maybe they do need that, but let them tell you that, don't assume that that's what they need, because many times we'll feel the opposite, which is, "Everybody abandoned me, everybody disappeared, everybody said they would be there and then they weren't." So I would always recommend over offering to under offering, and then be really clear that they can tell you to back off if they want you to back off, it can be really, really helpful. The one other thing, this is really interesting, because it just came up on our Instagram. I think you were talking about some unexpected losses or just at our age when we're losing, when people are younger than expected. One thing that came up that people ... we had like hundreds of responses to this in a couple of hours when it came up, was people asking how someone died, if they haven't chosen to share it. I think that a lot of the feedback that we had from widows and also from a lot of moms who had lost children, was that when people find out that their husband has died, or their child has died, that oftentimes people's first go to question will be like, "Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. How did it happen? Or how did they die?" Rather than thinking, if we're going to ask a question about the person we should ask about their life, not about their death. But for whatever reason, sometimes there's this nature people have to ask about their death. Oftentimes, it's really triggering, even if that person ... or a lot of times we'll think it's only triggering if it was a suicide or an accident." For many people just having to say it out loud and talk about the illness that their loved one has, immediately in that moment brings up memories, images about the illness and the death, which is often the hardest thing. Whereas being able to ask questions like, "Oh, what was your husband's name? What did he do?" Questions about his life, are often going to be the things that bring back thought they'll be hard to talk about. We'll bring back the positive memories. They're the things that people like to talk about, about the memory of their loved one, not the things that they don't want to talk about. So that one just came up on Instagram last week. So, it's really front and center on the brain for me, because it's one that I don't think about as often as some of the other ones. Doryn Wallach: That's so wonderful and such great advice. I don't think I would have known to do that, I'm definitely guilty of doing that of asking that not out of being nosy, but just ... I don't know. It always puts the other person in a position like, "Oh boy, this is an awkward conversation. What do I do next?" So I love that advice. That's so great. I don't want to end, but I think we're going to have to finish up a little bit. I want you to let the listeners know where they can find you. I did already mentioned your bio kind of what you do, but if somebody is grieving and you're not just grieving a death, you're grieving anything in your lives, how do they find you and what kind of support can they seek? Litsa Williams: So, you can find us on our website, which is whatsyourgrief.com, and we have hundreds of articles there, I think six or 700 articles on all things related to grief that you can ever imagine. We also do regular webinars, we have online courses, we do a lot with using creative expression as a tool for coping with grief. So, we have classes like journaling, grief journaling using photography as a tool for exploring and coping with loss. We have some support on getting ready for the holiday season, which for, I think, many people this holiday season is going to be especially tricky, and holidays are always tricky when we're grieving. So, the civic support like that. We have a podcast as well. It's a little sporadic. We started our podcast in 2014 when podcasting was still like the Wild Wild West and standards were very, very low. So, we just podcast here and there, I always tell people like, you'll get really good information, you'll get really low quality. So, we have all that, you can find us anywhere on social media at What's Your Grief. So we're on ... not anywhere, we're not on Snapchat or TikTok, but we're on Instagram, Pinterest, Facebook and Twitter. Doryn Wallach: Great. Thank you so much. This was another therapeutic session that I had and I hope for everybody else. There was so much to take from this. So, I appreciate you coming on the show. If you don't mind, follow up questions from this, I'll forward them your way, or if there's a better way for you to be reached, happy to do that as well. But I usually do get a bunch of questions. Litsa Williams: Please do, feel free to share, and we have some great resources on what to say and what not to say, and what to do and what not to do. So I will make sure to send those your way as well, if they'd be helpful for folks. Doryn Wallach: Okay, great. I will link to your website in any information in the show notes as well as my website. So, thank you to Litsa and thank you to my listeners for listening yet again to another one of my episodes and hope to bring you some more of this and other helpful ideas going forward that can make this part of our lives more positive and we're able to work through so that our future is something that we're looking forward to and not grieving. Thank you so much for listening. Remember to give yourself permission and know that you are not alone, don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any episodes. Reviews are always appreciated and you can reach me by email at It'sNotACrisis@gmail, Instagram, It'sNotACrisispodcast. Please join our Facebook group as well. Until next time, just remember It's Not A Crisis.

EPISODE 10 Practical tips from a former Net-A-Porter New York City based personal stylist, Nicole Russo. This is not just for fashion enthusiasts, this is for every woman. We dig deep into the psychology of what you're wearing as well as what is appropriate at our age. How do you make sure your wardrobe doesn’t get stuck years behind and actually transitions along with you through your life? Nicole is a fashion and shopping expert, but she’s also passionate about people and finding out their personality. She works one-on-one with her clients to help them discover who they truly are and how they can dress in a way that helps them own the room every single day. Shopping for clothes doesn’t have to be stressful, and with her help it won’t be. She also does virtual help for those of you who are interested. You can listen to Nicole as she brings her expertise in this episode, and hopefully take away some key points that you can apply to your own life. In less than a decade, Nicole has styled hundreds of people, sat front row at NYFW, been featured in Fast Company, and spent over four years working at luxury powerhouse NET-A-PORTER. She blends the technical side of fashion and retail to build your ideal wardrobe in an efficient, fun way. One that fine-tunes your personal style and brings you an overall more fulfilling life. You can connect with Nicole at letsgetyou.com as well as on Instagram @_letsgetyou EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Doryn Wallach: Hi, I'm Doryn Wallach and you're listening to It's Not A Crisis, a podcast for women in their 40s seeking to navigate life's challenges while making the most of it, which means let's do things now so that we can look at this next chapter as a very positive and happy time in our lives. I don't want anyone to dread or regret anything, although I guess regret is part of life, but I wanted to create this podcast to talk about all the ways that we can just make our lives more fulfilled, more positive, and happier overall. So today I have an amazing guest. I know her personally, as I do a lot of my guests. Her name is Nicole Russo and she's an incredible fashion stylist. I originally found her on Net-A-Porter and she had helped me with some events that I had to go to. And then after she left Net-A-Porter, I decided to use her for some other things. And what I love about Nicole is that while Nicole has her own style, she doesn't try to put that on other people. She reads people really, really well, and she gets you. And she knows that not everything looks great on every person. She understands bodies. She understands lifestyle. She understands even more than that. It goes deeper almost psychologically. And when I talk to her, you'll hear me talk a little bit about that. In less than a decade, Nicole has styled hundreds of people. She sat in the front row at New York Fashion Week. She's been featured in Fast Company and spent over four years working at the luxury powerhouse Net-A-Porter. She blends technical sides of fashion and retail to build your ideal wardrobe in an efficient and fun way, and one that fine tunes your personal style and brings you an overall more fulfilling life. That couldn't be more true. I'm very excited for you guys to learn a little bit about what is age appropriate at our age, how our body is changing and how to address it, how to still look great and buy trends that won't date us and a bunch of other things. So as usual, if you could please subscribe to my podcast, share my Instagram, share the podcasts with your friends. If you like them, please send me emails to it'snotacrisis@gmail.com. I love hearing from you. I love hearing your ideas. I love interacting with you on social media. So keep doing that, it's really fun for me. I do this podcast because it's just kind of, I'm passionate about helping women and I'm learning along with you. So thank you and just much appreciated, always. Nicole, welcome to the show. I am so excited to have you here. Nicole Russo: Hey Doryn, I am so excited. We've been trying to do this for a little while and- Doryn Wallach: So long. Nicole Russo: ... I'm amped. I'm actually so amped. I just love chatting with you, so I feel like it's just going to be fun. Doryn Wallach: Well, so I've talked a little bit about how I met you, but I found you at Net-A-Porter and I don't actually recall how or what, but one of the things that stuck out to me about you was that you really, and I said this in my opener, you just understand style from the point of view that some stylists just don't get. You understand body, you understand lifestyle, and you really understand each person and you don't try to put something on them that's not comfortable, but at the same time, you push boundaries just a little bit. And I appreciate that in the past, when we've worked together, because you've showed me ways to not only wear things, that I never even knew looked appropriate on my body type, but also how to keep within my style. That's one of the reasons I love you, but the main reason I love you is you're just such an awesome, wonderful person. And I don't have anybody on the show that I don't jive with and that I don't feel can add anything important, but also I want to make sure that it's people that, women that I'm supporting, businesses and what they're doing when I really believe in them. So, with that being said- Nicole Russo: Aww, that was so nice. I'm over here like, "That's so sweet." I mean, I'm very passionate about bringing out people's ... when I style, I think what is unique is I look at it on a very organic level. I'm like, who and what that person is and how can I draw them out? And how can I facilitate their personal growth? How can I show them a way of dressing themselves that heightens their confidence, but also their sense of possibility through what they wear, and then it kind of reverberates into their life. For example, I always say that your closet is a metaphor for your life. And the reason that I say that is because what we do in our closet directly is reflective on how we do things in our life. So if we aren't as confident taking risks, or we are impacted by other people's opinions, or we tend to overly criticize ourselves, and some of them could even be, we are a little cookie and we're very creative. So they can be multifaceted. And, but just like things in other parts of our lives, we maybe don't see opportunity or we're short-sighted because of old habits, or what's always worked for us. So I like to allow my clients to see more of themselves through pushing them outside their boundaries in a safe way that feels comfortable for them, but also makes them feel like more of what they already are. So when they have new clothes or they have new outfits, it's not scary. When someone hires someone like me, they're really looking for solutions to a problem which may be, they don't have time to shop, they are kind of feeling dated. They might have an event or an upcoming point of change in their life, like weight loss or children, or they could be just changing careers, all these things that are sort of facilitating the need, but they are also seeking a state of mind. We're seeking this easy effortlessness. They want to get dressed, they don't want to feel frustrated. They want to feel like it's just fine if you put on some clothes. Doryn Wallach: You're very intuitive and I think you're very, I don't know how to say this right, but you're very in tune to your intuitiveness. You really are. So I hire Nicole on occasion to go into my closet seasonally and pick out outfits for me to wear, because I, so I like fashion. It's really not my biggest focus in life. In fact, doing what I do as a jewelry designer, sometimes it feels intimidating to me because I feel like I have to look a certain way based on my industry, but there are times where I'm just super happy in my baseball hat and jean shorts and a t-shirt. So Nicole will come into my closet and kind of in Clueless how Cher had her outfits all done for her, that's what Nicole does for me and it's awesome. She will come in and she will pick out outfits and for day or night, or if I have an event or if I have something work-related, I have the outfit there and I can just look at it. And I don't know if they think about it, which is great. So I mentioned this Nicole, on another one of my podcasts. Nicole had recently come into my closet and it was one of the reasons I wanted to have her on the show, and she's very honest. And what you do in such a way that's, you're honest, but it's not critical. So Nicole came into, she said, "Doryn, I got to lay this out for you. I really have to be honest with you." And I said, "Okay, I can handle it." And she said, "My issue with looking in your closet is," I have a very glamorous, amazing mom who has her own style and flair. And I've always looked up to her for that because she just doesn't care what anybody thinks. But in some ways, she could be a little old fashioned when it comes to style and a little more classic maybe is the word I should use than I am. And Nicole said, "I feel like half your closet is who you are and half your closet is who your mom is and who your mom probably wants you to be. And I think that you need to start to hone in a little bit more on who you are." And it was in that moment right there that I was like, "Oh wow, that doesn't just pertain to my closet. That pertains to so much of my life." And in my 40s, I look up to my mom and I adore my mom, but there's something about, you tend to seek approval from someone you look up to. And especially somebody as fashionable as my mom. And I think that sometimes even when I'm designing my jewelry or I'm picking out clothes, I'm like, "What would my mom think?" And there's this other side of me that has this kind of more edgy, maybe more casual, maybe sometimes a little bit more hippy, bohemian, I don't know what it is, that is so not what my mom is. And Nicole, she called me out on it and she was right. My problem is, and I'm getting this as I get older and I think other women who are listening will agree, that as I get deeper into my 40s, I'm gaining more confidence and I care less what people think. So I'm starting to hone in on what my style is. And also, I'm also like comfort has become more popular for me, because I just don't care that much. I mean, I know you always are on me for like, "Okay, you can be comfortable, but you can put on a good shoe." And I do love my shoes. So I guess the first place to start with you, because I think that the psychological part of it is really important, and personally, everyone listening, I feel like I haven't figured it out yet. Just like I haven't figured out a lot of things yet. And that's part of why I have this podcast, because we're all trying to figure this crazy decade out on our own. But the latest thing that I feel that I'm struggling with and I'm sure other women are struggling with is, what is age appropriate anymore? Women are looking more and more amazing as they get older and spend time, there are so many ways we can work out today, online, amazing classes here and there. And I do find myself looking at something. So now my daughter will be 13 in a couple of weeks and I start to see things that she likes and I'm like, "Ooh, I like that." And then I'm like, "Well, if she's wearing that, I can't wear that." So first question is, what is age appropriate? How do we even know today? I feel like it's just, I think it's more confusing today than ever. Nicole Russo: Oh my gosh, there's so much to unpack. So, I'm just like, where do I begin? Doryn Wallach: I know, sorry. That was a lot. Nicole Russo: No, no. It's just like, to begin with is that, we're not alone. A lot of us as women in particular, we're kind of taught that dressing and shopping and looking and feeling fabulous is supposed to be naturally easy, and that's not true at all. It is something that most of the people I think are not innately born with. And I find that there's this, when we kind of get over the hurdle of thinking that this should be easy, it becomes a lot more self accepting that figuring it out is more normal than being naturally good at it. So, for starters, I think we need to look at that. And when it comes to age appropriateness and especially your comment about your daughter is that, 40 years ago or 10 years, even 20 years ago, age appropriateness was based on the notion that there were strict rules about what you can and cannot do. There were limitations that were given to us because of a certain bracket of age that you passed upon. Rules that are actually still being inundated with to us. And I think that the reason that we hear them and it's particularly from other women, is that they are ways to create division and they are ways to create self judgment and judgment amongst each other. Because if you are not doing something right, therefore you are not as good as me or not as good as the other. And therefore there's this sense of lack. And I don't really believe truly as a stylist, I don't believe there is such a thing as age appropriate. I think that what is not age appropriate is the thing that you are the most uncomfortable in, and the thing that makes you feel as though you're wearing a costume, or something that represents another part of your life or another part of yourself. So to explain that further is, there are a lot of fun, playful, child-like fashions, like glitter or sequins or applique, or light-up shoes, things that are, or lots of color that are very useful, right? And if you are a woman who is in her 40s or 50s or 60s and you appreciate those components, that doesn't mean that you cannot wear something sparkly or something neon. What it is is that you may want to use specific elements of what you like in a mature way. So if you're wearing, you love neons, maybe you can wear a neon blazer or something that has a neon detail, like in a shoe. So it's really about, how do you interpret what you like and what you're drawn to that maybe useful or immature, and how can you pair that back into the life that you live now? Which may be a business woman or a mom or a retiree, or someone who's playing with her grandkids on the floor. There could be different parts of your life. And I think that a lot of times when we're worried about what's age appropriate, we're worried about what other people are going to think of us because of where we are in our life. I often say going back to the closet is a metaphor for your life thing is that there's, we often have multiple people in our closet. The example you brought up Doryn about your mom, and then you and ... those are two components of your closet that are sort of competing with each other, which made it a little more challenging for you to get dressed and feel good in your outfits daily, or come up with them creatively, because they weren't really flowing together naturally. They were two competing elements. And once we address those things and that's something I help with in particular, not only by bringing up the idea to you or to the client and making them aware of it, but also seeing the opportunities in which, if you're a little bohemian but also casual, but then there's a timelessness and classiness to your style, they seem like counterpoints, how can you bring them together? But as you develop a sense of self that's more confident and you start to care less about what people think, it's like a muscle. You have a natural ability to put the outfits together and dress easier for different situations that feel good, but then what is weird or out of the box, or maybe a risk suddenly becomes smaller and smaller and smaller. You literally develop a greater strength in dealing with giving, caring what people think, and that's where I see the magic. That's why I love the concept of styling and clothes. So that's a really, I guess multifaceted way to answer that. There is no such thing as age appropriateness, the only limitations we create are the ones for ourselves. And if you have them for yourself, and that's okay if you want to say that this is what's appropriate for me. But the only other thing I would say personally that I think is not appropriate is, what I advise people is, are you dressing the same way you were 10 years ago? That means that you're not evolving as a person. And when you look dated, it's because you're not evolving and you're not growing and that's when it looks in-age appropriate. That's when I feel like people look like they're dressing too young or dressing like they don't belong, because their body's a little different, they are a little different, but yet their presentation of themselves hasn't changed. And that's when I think it just looks kind of weird. Doryn Wallach: Here's one of the things I struggle with, and I mentioned my daughter. I'm getting to an age now where I still want to wear short skirts because I like my legs and I don't mean skin tight, trashy skirts. And I like to feel youthful in the way that I dress. But I feel like I'm also a role model for her. And not that, you know me, it's not like I'm wearing anything crazy and risque. But I bought this dress recently. It was like kind of a layered ruffled skirt on the bottom and really pretty and I really like it. But I had bought it when we were shopping with Tatum, at a store where there were things for her. But my mom was there, of course, I needed the confirmation, and I love it. And it feels youthful to me, but without making me feel like I look like a kid. So I think that that's for me now, this is a whole other thing that I think about, or when I'm dressing, because my daughter is just finding her style. And by the way, we are going to do another podcast on teens and tweens because Nicole is actually helping my daughter kind of hone in on what her style is right now. And I think that at her age where her body's changing, it's important to really feel confident and find who you are. So it's great to hear what you just said, and I think that all of that makes sense and I think that sometimes in our head, we're still in the '90s and we'll put something on that we, I mean, in the summer, I genuinely look the way I did in high school, because I wear shorts and t-shirt and a baseball hat every day. Except when I get dressed up at night, and that's really how I [crosstalk 00:20:09]. Nicole Russo: Well, it's something that's timeless. Doryn Wallach: Yeah, totally timeless. Nicole Russo: I mean, that doesn't get old. Certain things never die and that's okay. And that doesn't mean that you're not growing up, right? Doryn Wallach: Right. And I always say there's summer Doryn and there's fall winter Doryn, because I love fall winter clothes. I love leather. I love boots. I love dresses. I like tights and I feel like in summer, I just don't care as much. So anyway, the other topic I feel like has come up a lot for a lot of women is our bodies are changing in our 40s. So I have noticed, not only is it harder to lose weight in our 40s, but I am gaining weight in places I never gained before. I think a lot of women are starting to struggle with the mid section and I've read that that's hormonally related, and even hips and your boobs are sagging, they're not looking as good as they used to. And it's hard because you, it's hard to see your body change. So some tips on how do we evolve our clothes with our bodies or anything that we can do to make that feel better for all of us? Nicole Russo: Yeah. I mean, it's very common. I mean, that's the other thing is that when we develop a little bit of knowledge and that's why even giving Tatum some skills now, because as she continues to grow up and become a young woman and maybe possibly have children. And then also go through her 40s and a phase of life where herself is changing. It gives you this skillset that you can then use for the rest of your life. So it's something that sort of has a compound effect. I actually think that what's really common is a lot of the changes that happen like you described, are very similar to postpartum, right? So you're going through a very ... you're not as familiar with the body you have, it feels a little foreign, there's different shapes that you're not used to dealing with. Maybe things have expanded or gone different directions. And what used to work and used to be our go-to may have now not feel as good in, right? So what I recommend that people do is, and this is one of my ... is you really want to look at imagery that works for, or outfits that work for you, and figure out what it is about those things that you like. Right? You may have loved, for example, you love a shorts and a t-shirt, okay. But there are so many different styles of that if you want to look at it. So you can do boxy t-shirts, off the shoulder, slouchy, you can do a vsco versus a cotton blend. Things can have structure. So let's say for example, you are not as comfortable with your midsection, but you happen to also be very petite, maybe you're shorter, right? So what used to work might be, you might wear smaller or more shrunken tees because you were petite and therefore oversize things, you didn't feel as confident in. I'm making this up. This is not you. This is an example. Doryn Wallach: Yeah, no, it is definitely, I'm definitely not petite. Yeah. Nicole Russo: No. But if you're 5'1" and that's something that you are seeing as changing for you, maybe you can shift to the thing that you may love about t-shirts is how they're easy and breezy and sort of classic, right? So maybe instead of that, you move into something like a linen button up. It still has easy breezy shape, unlike a structured button up and then, but you wear something that is slightly more tailored, and then therefore it will show the narrowness of your shape, as opposed to a boxy tee, which is going to widen you. So you kind of take the things that you like and you see what other things exist in the market that fit well, or that fit better, or solve this "problem". And I use quotations, I figure the problem that you think is there or you feel is there, and then, but gives you the result you're looking for. So we kind of have to deconstruct it and make it a little bit more logical and less emotional, because there's so much available that there is usually, there's a solution. And it could be something as simple as the rise of a pant or the fabric of a pant. So I think that the first phase is, you kind of just have to honor that things are changing, that things are different, but that doesn't mean that you can't look stylish and feel great. You're not being put out to pasture, it's just that there's a change. And if you move with that change and you honor the change and you work with it, you will get to a solution to the other side and you can still feel fabulous with what you are, because the goals that we have are all to feel good. We all just want to have confidence and feel amazing. And I think the only reason we think we felt that way when we were younger, is because we were just dumb enough to not be aware. Doryn Wallach: I think you're right, exactly. And I would recommend to everybody that you consult with a fashion stylist every few years if you can, because as your body changes, they will help you to understand how to wear clothes for your body that is changing, in a way that will make you feel amazing. Nicole is great at that and we'll talk about it at the end, but Nicole also does virtual if you're not in the New York area. But I think that that's really important. Let's just, one example. Let's say you're a woman who is flat chested because your kids ruined your boobs, and you're very curvy on the bottom with maybe thicker legs but skinny arms. So given that example, what is your recommendation to dress someone like that? Nicole Russo: This is where I would first want to, just as a point, this is where knowing what people's personal preferences and goals are in terms of, are they more boho? Are they more preppy? Let's say she wanted to be timeless and classic. What I would do is that someone like that, what they often do is they see like say, for example, if it's summer and she sees a Bermuda short, which is a very common trend right now, and she may put that on and then her goal may be to look less curvy. Some women may actually really love the bottom shape and they want to show it off, but her goal may be to sort of de-emphasize it. So a simple solution is to follow the shape of the body that you have in a sort of you skim it versus you tailor it. So a Bermuda short is an example of something that would tailor the body. So it would be kind of fitted, sort of snug. It would definitely show off the smaller waist, but it would also make the waist to hip ratio look more prominent so they would look more curvy on the bottom. It would also accent the thighs. So if that wasn't her goal and she wanted to de-emphasize that part or balance it with her top, I would say grab a, you can look for a short that has that same Bermuda style where it's cut off at the knee, kind of more of a higher waist, or at least at or around the belly button. But something that has a little bit more of a drape, almost like it fits like a boyfriend jean, or it fits like a relaxed linen pant, but it's in the short shape. So paper bag pants are very common, have that shape in the leg or paper bag shorts, but this is something that wouldn't have that little cinch and flare and peplum. And then what you're going to do is, the reason that works for someone with that body type for example is because it doesn't actually draw the eye to it by overly emphasizing the curve, because it's not as tailored. But if you wear something that's very big and flowy on the bottom, you could then, women will often say they feel like they're wearing a tent or they feel like they look bigger. That is because all of the extra volume is, you can't see the actual body. So you sort of want to find a balance between showing the shape and working with the shape that you have, while also not overly emphasizing it by getting the material super close to the skin. So that would be the quick, and you can do that with pants. You could do that with even a skirt for example. That's a really universal, it goes across the board. That would work even with women that are really thin and don't want to look as skinny, for example, they want to look a little more curvy. It's just, you want to kind of work with the lines that you're built with and you're using, and just find a middle ground between very fitted and overly flowy until you feel like, "Oh, I look really good." Doryn Wallach: Okay. That makes sense. Trend wise, so I do like some ... I've never been an overly trendy person because I'm one of these people that if everyone's wearing it, I don't want to wear it. It turns me off, but, there are occasional things that I want to integrate into my wardrobe. Is there an age cutoff for that, for trends? Are we allowed to ... How do you incorporate trends into your wardrobe that won't date you, I guess is the question I'm asking. Nicole Russo: I would say the best way to do it is actually to figure out what about the trend that you like. So for example, nautical was recently a trend for fall. Red was a big trend for fall. And you're going to find sexy red slinky dresses and you're going to find sophisticated red blazers, or you're going to find youthful bomber jacket or track jackets in a sort of a nautical theme. And then that might feel more almost immaturish or too much like you're 22 at the cape or something. So if that's the case, you want to move towards the trend that you like, and then, but in iterations that work for your life and your lifestyle. I'm sure I could go through trends, hit history of trends and be like, "I don't know if that's really great for a 56 year old." But honestly, I know there are women in their 50s and 60s who are icons in fashion right now that were wearing crop tops. So I'm not going to necessarily say that one cannot or should not. But what I will say is, is that if you see a trend, like an anklet for example as kind of trendy, there are definitely ways that ... or there's plastic colorful jewelry. You can wear those kinds of ... or even fruit shaped jewelry. I think that there are ways that you could wear that and still look very sophisticated or mature or confident, because the best dressed woman really has the knowledge of what works for her and the confidence to pull it off. So that is really what it is, is knowing and identifying what you like, and how does it work into your lifestyle and finding those trends or those things that are popular right now and incorporate it into your world in a way that makes sense for you. And when you do that, you'll never look dated. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. All right. My last question for you is, you had brought this up earlier, I just wanted you to expand on it a little bit about why your closet is a metaphor for your life. And yeah, I mean, just go into a little bit about what you mean by that. Nicole Russo: I think, if we can circle back to even what you said before when I brought to your attention kind of the idea that you had this Doryn style, and then there was this your mom's influence also sort of sitting in your- Doryn Wallach: What is my Doryn style? Nicole Russo: ... You are a little boho-ey, a little edgy, downtown, like rocker, very down to earth, a little bit playful '70s. You have kind of a, it's not hippy, it's not the right way to explain it. It's more of the, "I don't really care, I just like what I like and I'm going to wear it" kind of attitude. And you have this really sophisticated, timeless, classic component that's in your closet as well, which is beautiful. Like stiletto patent shoes, leopard prints, tailored dresses, lots of black. There's these almost like Upper East Side rich girls chic, that are there, like these touches of it. And you see that in the quality of the things that you buy too. Because a lot of what you pick are, you can see the selection and finding things that are really, really high quality. So having known you as a person, I feel like those are two very strong components of who you are. So you're very chill, you're the kind of girl who just wants to be on the beach hanging in your hammock, reading a good book. Doing nothing, no pretense, you don't need to be seen or seeny, and then there's also this part of you that's super sophisticated and pulled together and very ladylike and feminine and mature. And when I say- Doryn Wallach: And immature. Nicole Russo: ... Yeah, and then there's that immaturity, exactly. So that's where I think the rocker, sort of boho, yeah, there's this "I give no fucks" kind of side of you that sort of is like that playfulness. And I think that that's an example of how your closet is a metaphor for your life. So you, when you brought up your mom and your closet, you made a comment saying when I brought to your attention that she was sort of present in there, her influence of who you want to be because of who your mom wants you to be, you made a comment saying, "Yeah, that's sort of how my ... that hits other parts of my life too." So that's what I mean, that's an example. Doryn Wallach: It's so wild because it's, I mean, everything you're saying is so true and I sometimes feel schizophrenic in my fashion because I like so many different things and it depends on my mood. There are days where, when I'm in a bad mood, I'm usually in my combat boots and my leather jacket or my Moda boots or it's kind of, it's just funny. This summer you would be so surprised because of the whole pandemic, I bought all of these bright, floral dresses and bright sweaters and colors and Birkenstocks of all colors. And just like, I was like, "You know what? Everything is so depressing right now. I just feel like being bright." Nicole Russo: Yeah. So that's an example of your mood directly reflected, how and what was happening in your life right now directly reflected the way that you were dressing yourself. And what I feel is interesting, and this is what I do and what I believe in is that you can kind of rig it where I can't, whatever other components of your life where this balance, these interactions with your mom, how it impacts other parts of your life, I can't really have anything to do with that. But what I can say is, if I can draw it in and kind of figure out a way to kind of make sense of it in your closet, then as you develop that confidence or as you develop that understanding in yourself when you're getting dressed every day, which we all do, regardless of what you're putting on, that then impacts what interaction you may have later. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. And you know what, listen, if you're someone who really doesn't even care about clothes or fashion, I still think talking to somebody like Nicole is super helpful because I actually, I can't say I don't care, but it's definitely not my priority. But in the times that we've worked together and you've put things together for me, it made me excited about wearing clothes, especially when it was all laid out for me and I could just be like, "Okay, I'm going to put this with this, this, this and now I know what I'm going to wear today and I don't have to think about it." I think part of the problem of people just wearing the same thing every day is, you just don't want to think about it. If you're not that person to kind of like, "Ugh, what am I going to put?" You just end up wearing the same thing all the time because it's just easier than thinking, and we have enough to deal with anyway. Well, listen, we have to wrap up, but I loved having you on. And I wanted to ask you, I always ask my guests at the end of the show, what would you tell your younger self today, if you could give yourself a piece of advice? Nicole Russo: Dump him. Doryn Wallach: That's a good one. I'm sure a lot of us could say that. Nicole Russo: Yeah, I'm sure. Doryn Wallach: I'm sure a lot of us could. Nicole Russo: Oh, I wish it would be more poetic, but honestly, that would be the one I would go with. Doryn Wallach: I appreciate that and I don't think you're alone in that. Well, thank you so much and tell everyone how they can find you. Nicole Russo: Yeah, you can find me at, so my company name is Let's Get You. So you can find me at let'sgetyou.com and you can find my Instagram, I'm very active. It's _letsgetyou and DM me, I mean, I'm the girl you're going to be interacting with. So say hi and I'd love to hear from you. Doryn Wallach: And just a little bit about your services, what are you offering right now? Because I know obviously things have changed. Nicole Russo: So normally my services are in-person but I am offering a virtual process and program that does allow people to sort of gain the same insights and clarity and wardrobe building that I'm basically using my Net-A-Porter skills of working with people remotely and online. And I can do that with you basically anywhere in the world. So I have clients all over now. And if you are someone who is not in your one of your homes, or if you want me to come in and work in your closet while you aren't home, I am offering that as well, if you are within the New York City metro region. Doryn Wallach: Good, I'm going to do a big purge this ... I'm actually going back to my apartment next week and I'm purging a bunch of stuff, but there's, I swear, I don't know. I don't know if it's the pandemic, but there are just, I had gone back to the city and saw a few things in my closet and I was like, "No, not me anymore." So I don't know what it is. It was me in the fall and now I'm over it. So I'm going to be in touch with you, although I don't think anyone's going to see me for months anyway. All right, Nicole, thank you again for coming on. It's always good to talk to you. Let me know if you are interested, if anybody is interested in hearing Nicole talk a little bit about our tweens and teens. Because I think from a mom's perspective, it's how to support their individual style, but also how to make sure they're confident. But at the same time, there's just some looks going on right now that I am not okay with. And then I've circled back from the '90s when I was a teenager and I really wasn't okay with it then. So I think that that's a whole other topic. So if that's something you're interested in, shoot me an email, it'snotacrisis@gmail or DM me on Instagram or Facebook and let me know. Nicole Russo: All right, well thanks Doryn. It was so much fun.

EPISODE 9 This new solo episode tackles an important aspect of being a woman, wife, and a mother and having a career at the same time. Many of us struggle with finding the right balance between family and career - we want to have both and be efficient in both these areas. And I believe we can! There’s no reason to give up either on having a career or having a family. All it takes is to find a natural balance that works best for your own situation. Doryn will be sharing 5 practical tips from her own personal experience as both an experienced business owner, a mother of two and tips that you can use to find a balance in your life. Some of these tips will be extremely helpful for you, especially now during this pandemic. Websites Mentioned: care.com

EPISODE 8 My guest, and friend Michelle Spieler is Hollywood makeup veteran and a true expert on all things beauty, skincare and health. We’ll go through 5 practical steps every woman can take in order to maintain their looks, even if midlife slowly but surely sets in. We also have loads of fun, talking about plenty of subjects from skincare regime, hydration, skin glow, our new passion for TikTok for the over 30 crowd! You can connect with Michelle either on her website michellespieler.com or on her Instagram @michellemspieler and you absolutely MUST check out her TikTok @cleanbeautybabe Please follow the show @ItsNotACrisisPodcast on both Instagram and Facebook for behind-the-scenes content, memes, and updates. Also, don’t forget to check out our sponsor at writtenoutloud.org Registration ends on September 14th, so make sure to hop on while you still can, and let them know Doryn sent you. Products/ Websites Mentioned: -Touch in Sol: Pretty Filter Glassy Skin Balm: https://touchinsol-us.com/products/pretty-filter-glassy-skin-balm -Lisa Eldridge https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFghPtzFcmyDiID1ASMA4Dg -@Cleanbeautybabe on TikTok And remember: It's not a crisis! EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Doryn Wallach: Hi, everybody, and welcome to It's Not a Crisis, a podcast for women in their 40s searching and trying to figure out life and making the most of it. Before I get started, I have my very first sponsor. I promised to only have sponsors that I truly believe in. I know that we are all freaking out about what our kids are going to do this fall. I definitely am. So check this out. My daughter did an online storytelling camp this summer and I kid you not, it was one of the most inspiring things that she did all summer. They're offering it this fall. It's truly amazing. I actually had a couple of friends send it to me and tell me that their kids had this incredible experience. The program is called Written Out Loud. It's a small online storytelling program taught by Hollywood filmmakers and Yale professors. They teach the kids in small groups how to tell stories inspired by the stories they already love like Harry Potter, Stranger Things, Marvel, Frozen, and Hamilton. It's all on Zoom and the best part is that they group kids together based on their creative tastes. So if you have a 10 year old who's into Percy Jackson, they'll group them with other 10 year old Percy Jackson fans across the country, and they can end up being friends for life, which is really nice. Over the course of a few months, they write a book together. I'm telling you, this program has turned over 300 kids into published authors. My daughter did it with her friend and they absolutely loved it. You know how most kids hate Zoom? They looked forward to actually doing their Zoom storytelling sessions every day. The fall program starts September 14th and enrollment is limited. They will sell out, so register now if you have a creative kid between the ages of 8 and 16. They can really and truly write their very first book this fall. The program is called Written Out Loud. Go to writtenoutloud.org, not .com, that is writtenoutloud.org, and let them know that Doryn sent you. I am so excited about my guest today because not only is she a very good friend of mine, I have known her for many, many years. I'm so inspired by her daily. Michelle Spieler is not only a ridiculously talented makeup artist who has worked in both film, TV, and commercial, and print, she has started this, in my opinion, much needed social media following for women in their 40s and 50s. So Michelle is 53. She looks amazing. She's gorgeous. She has amazing beauty tips, hair tips, health tips, exercise tips. If you go to her Instagram, you'll fall in love with her. She's now on TikTok, which we're going to talk about in a second because I have also kind of joined TikTok and in my last episode, I said I never would do it. Anyway, we are going to talk today all about beauty, but not just makeup. We're going to talk about your skin and we're going to talk about beauty within and how we can take care of ourselves as we're going on our next chapter of our lives in our 40s. Because I think I am noticing, for the first time at 43, that things are changing and it's changing with every year. I've been blessed most of my life with good skin, but I'm starting to see some major differences and that's life. So I would love to introduce my beautiful and wonderful friend, Michelle Spieler. Hi, Michelle. Michelle Spieler: Wow. Hi, Doryn. What a great introduction. I don't feel worthy. But I would like to say that I've seen your skin in person. It is absolutely gorgeous and what I wouldn't give to be 43 again, but here we are. Doryn Wallach: I hear you. I always know you're exactly 10 years older than me and our birthdays are right around the same exact time. Michelle Spieler: Yes. Doryn Wallach: So I'm going to tell you how I met Michelle. So first of all, let me preface this with I have been obsessed with makeup and hair since I was a little kid. If you asked me at seven years old what do you want to be, it was a hair stylist. I would make over friends. They would come over. I'd take the girl in school who maybe wasn't that popular and kids were kind of mean, and I'd make it my project to bring her home and change her wardrobe, hair, and makeup. She'd go back to school and everyone would be like, "Oh, my God." Even as I got older, I would blow dry friends' hair and whatever. It helps that my mom was very into beauty and has taught me a lot. But while I've done a lot of different things, mostly interior design, but as I've mentioned in my podcast in the past, I've done a lot because I just can't make up my mind and I just like doing so many different things. So I worked briefly, only about four or five episodes, on the show Extreme Makeover: Home Edition. I think this was back in 2004, 2005. Is that right, Michelle? Michelle Spieler: I'm thinking '04. Yeah. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. So Michelle was the makeup artist in the trailer and I was the... I don't even know what I was. PA, whatever. Design. My title was Assistant Design Producer. I don't know what that means. Well, I actually loved working on that show. It was one of the most memorable times in my life and I just thought it was so much fun. But I used to hang out in the trailer, which I probably shouldn't have, with Michelle talking about makeup and watching her do makeup. I think even once I did makeup on one of the cast members when you couldn't do it or something. I don't remember. Michelle Spieler: Yeah. I got deathly ill and [Noralynn 00:06:25] and you, I think, did Preston. Doryn Wallach: Yes, I did, and I'd never put makeup on a man before in my life. So that was interesting. I think I did okay. I don't really remember. Michelle Spieler: Yeah, I'm sure you did. Doryn Wallach: But just to follow with this, so anyway, we were chatting and chatting and just became fast friends and have kept in touch ever since. Michelle has moved from LA to North Carolina, so I haven't seen you in so long. Then just to also give a little bit of my background, which Michelle knows, a few years ago when I had a podcast and a blog in 2005, Michelle was one of my first guests on that podcast, which is crazy. Remember that? On Doryn's Dish? Michelle Spieler: Yeah, I do, I do. I loved it. We even did one with your mom. Doryn Wallach: Oh, that's right. Michelle Spieler: We did two. We did one- Doryn Wallach: Which by the way, I am going to do a podcast with my mom again because I think it will be really popular. Michelle Spieler: I think the whole world needs to hear from Arlene. Doryn Wallach: I agree, I agree. We're going to do it. We're going to do it. Then just to give you a little bit about my background, so I had moved to London for a couple years and my husband was working and I couldn't get a work visa. I kind of felt judged by my family with the idea of ever going into makeup or hair. When I was younger, I cared more about things like that. I was like, "You know what? I'm all the way in Europe. I'm going to take makeup and hair classes," so I did a four month intensive makeup and hair. I did movie makeup, I did bridal, regular every day makeup, face painting, and hair styling. I loved it. It was so much fun. I even did the Queen's cousin's makeup. Then I started a beauty blog after that, just writing about my favorite products. Because as I've posted in my Instagram feed a few times, when I like a product, I'll post it and I've done it on my Instagram. I still love doing it. I love trialing products. By the way, Michelle, my 13 year old is now doing this. She's obsessed with skincare. She always wants new products. She's like, "I just like testing them." It's really funny. Where did you come from? Michelle Spieler: Oh, Lord. Oh, Lord. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. That's a- Michelle Spieler: Generational. Doryn Wallach: I know, totally. So with all of that, we are going to get started and have a chat because Michelle has so much to add and you guys, you're going to follow her forever after this. I promise you. Michelle Spieler: I think that we have to definitely blame our moms because I grew up with a very glamorous mom. She wore lashes every day of her life. She looked like Barbara Eden from I Dream of Jeannie. Everywhere we went, people turned and looked at her. So I got into that whole makeup and hair and skincare at a very, very young age myself. Now, I have passed that onto Gracie. She's just like Tatum and she absolutely loves skincare and natural makeup. She is not all about that heavy Instagram look, but she loves Millie Bobbie and the Florence line and Goop. Doryn Wallach: Tatum too. Our daughters are the same age too. Michelle Spieler: They are. They are. We got to get them together someday. Doryn Wallach: Oh, yeah. Tatum's turning 13 next week. It's crazy. So my mother, and if you're ever interested in my mother, I have an Instagram for her, mymomarlene. I don't post all the time, but she is a character and she's wonderful and glamorous and beautiful. She wears a lot more makeup than I'll ever wear, but my whole life, people would stop her and be like, "Your makeup's so beautiful. You do such a good job. Are you a makeup artist?" She would always do my makeup and did it really well for prom or whatever. But my mom's skincare routine is two hours in the morning and two hours at night, which I will never, ever have the patience for. Michelle Spieler: It's definitely a sport for Arlene. She's just funny. She's just naturally funny. Doryn Wallach: Right. She is naturally funny. So we both agree in our 40s and 50s that it's not... I do want to get into makeup because I have a lot of questions for you Michelle and I think other women do too. But what you're doing right now, which is so wonderful, is that when we get older, our skin and our hair and our nails is from within. We can't just be as careless as we were in our 20s and 30s. I'd love you to talk a little bit about some... I guess starting with health and things that you think should be included in our lives for the exterior as well as skincare. Michelle Spieler: Yeah. Well, when you approached me about the show, I think just to keep it concise for the audience, I think we both really loved the top five tips for looking younger. Definitely one and two are very important, have nothing to do with makeup. But I would say that number one is to get yourself on a good skincare regime. I don't care what that is as long as it is a daily, regular skincare regime. People will often tell me, "Oh, my gosh, I can't believe you're 53. You look so good. What's your secret?" I used to always say, "It's just DNA." But I thought, "You know what? No, I'm downplaying all the hard work that I've put in for 40-some odd years." I literally started using Oil of Olay every night of my life when I was very, very young. Like 13, 14. Then I started religiously wearing SPF when I was maybe 20 years old. I stopped tanning my face at 20. I wish I had stopped tanning my neck and hands, but that's a story for another time. Doryn Wallach: My hands. My hands are so bad. It's terrible. Michelle Spieler: Wait until you're in your 50s. Then another thing is that I washed my face every single night of my life. Even I'd come home from clubbing or college parties and I wouldn't remember the night before, but I would wake up with a squeaky clean face. So I have been putting these regimes and practices into my daily life for a very, very long time, but it's never too late. I don't want to say, "Oh, you're 45 and you've never taken your skin seriously? Well, you're screwed," because you can always start right now and it does make a big difference to wash your face every day, tone your face, do a moisturizer. I think most dermatologists would agree that a vitamin C serum is so crucial for daytime and at nighttime, use a retinol product or a retinol alternative product. These are great anti-aging skincare products that really, really do improve skin texture and clarity, and give you that glow. Who doesn't want that at any age? Doryn Wallach: Exactly. I'm going to tell you, I've been wearing eye cream since I was 16, but- Michelle Spieler: Amen. Doryn Wallach: ... I never washed my face after going out until probably my 30s at some point. I'd just go to sleep with makeup on. Michelle Spieler: You know what? You're not alone. It's good to talk about this so that nobody feels shamed. When I talk about that, I'm not trying to be holier than thou. I'm just stating the fact that I've taken my skin very, very seriously from a young age. I tell women if you really are too tired at night to go and wash your face, which takes a whole one minute, then keep makeup wipes on your nightstand and at least you can take off makeup while you're lying in bed. It's not as good as washing, but it's better than nothing. Doryn Wallach: Well, I just want to go back to what you said about... So you're 53 now. Regarding skincare, you said you wish that you had put sunscreen on your neck and hands. So in addition to that, a) how often, b) is there anything else in your early 40s or your late 30s that you wish you did more of? Michelle Spieler: Yeah, I really, truly wish that I had been drinking more water all along. That's point number two I'll get to in a minute. But I have worn SPF almost every day of my life since probably 1990 when they started putting a 15 in makeup and skincare. I never covered my neck and my hands and my chest. Now, when I look at it, my chest has definite sun damage. My neck, I'm getting the turkey neck at 53. I'd love to get my neck done someday, but it's not in the budget right now. My hands just look so old. It's because of all the intermittent driving and exposure in Southern California, right? Doryn Wallach: My mom tells me to keep sunblock in the car and put it on every time you're driving. She's told me that my whole life. I don't do it. But who even thinks about that? Well, you also get, even dead of winter, sun rays are coming into your car. Michelle Spieler: I know. So that's my advice to anyone, 30s or early 40s right now, is please start putting that sunscreen on your neck and hands because just the skin on your chest is so thin and it just starts to look really bad as you get older. Doryn Wallach: I was on, and I will never go on another one again, my brother sent us on a cruise for Mother's Day. I'll never forget being outside putting on sunblock and my mom looks to me and said, "Did you skip your decollete? Dude, that is the first part of your body to start aging. If you don't start covering that with sunblock now every single day, you are going to see later on how bad that looks." Michelle Spieler: Oh, Lord. I love her. She's absolutely right. Doryn Wallach: So I have always been crazy about putting block there. If there's one place I'm going, it's there. Michelle Spieler: Yeah, and I'll say this too, is that doing makeup for so many years, I would have actresses or models sit in my chair and the ones who would drink a gallon of water a day or near that, it was obvious. Their skin was just so plump and glowing. So I have always been a water drinker. I really don't drink much else except for coffee in the mornings. But I started a new program over summer called 75 Hard. You have to drink a gallon of water every day and if you fall short, you have start back to day one of 75 days. So I really drank a gallon of water every single day for 50 days. I quit on day 51. I'm like, "Peace out. I'm out of here." But it's caused me to drink more water. My friend literally asked me a couple of weeks ago if I had Botox. I have not Botoxed since 2006. So the gallon of water of day, it's very effective. It really works. Doryn Wallach: Which is our second tip. Michelle Spieler: Yes. Doryn Wallach: How did you leave the house? Weren't you peeing all day long? Michelle Spieler: Yeah. Yeah. Doryn Wallach: Yeah? Michelle Spieler: And here we are. Doryn Wallach: Now we're in the coronavirus times. It's like you don't really want to go into a lot of places to... But I actually drink a ton of water. I don't drink that much water. I probably drink about 32 ounces and sometimes more than that every day. But I also, I mean, TMI, I have a really weak bladder and I pee a lot. Michelle Spieler: Yeah. Well, that's pregnancy. That stretches out everything down there. Yeah. Doryn Wallach: No, no. Yes. But I've always been like that. Michelle Spieler: Oh, got it. Doryn Wallach: I was no different when I was pregnant. So a gallon a day, wow. That's actually good challenge. Michelle Spieler: It's a lot. It's 128 ounces a day. I will say, since I quit doing 75 Hard, I'm still probably drinking 80 to 90 ounces a day. So it's far, far more than I used to drink because I would say I used to drink half a gallon a day. Doryn Wallach: Since you've stopped drinking that much, has your skin changed at all? Michelle Spieler: I haven't noticed. I haven't noticed. I'm still drinking a ton. What I love about water is that you can do it at any age. It doesn't cost any money unless you buy bottled water because you don't have good water in your home, but we have a water filter. It's so easy and it's free. Doryn Wallach: Right. We will get onto this one later. I've also started to realize how bad alcohol is for my skin. Michelle Spieler: Amen. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. And hormones. Oh, gosh. So that's a topic I would like to touch on if we can. Okay. So we watch social media now. I see what my daughter's looking at. I look at these young girls. They are covered in foundation and it's so yucky. They don't need it. I mean, I've never really worn a ton of foundation. Maybe tinted moisturizer, but I'm not into the look that is the influence for our daughters right now. I think as you get older, I find that I'm wearing almost less on my face because it sits and cracks in places and makes me look older. So just curious your opinion on that and any advice for foundation? Michelle Spieler: Yeah, I absolutely agree. I stopped wearing foundation when I was 36 years old. I met a woman at Fred Segal in Santa Monica and she had the most incredible skin. She said she only wore Bobby Brown. It was Bobby Brown tinted moisturizer. So that day, I switched and I only use tinted moisturizers. Now, I would use foundation for special occasions, especially in the evenings, but as I've gotten older, what happens is foundation sits on top of the face and as you get older, you get a little bit more texture, your pores get larger, women tend to grow more facial hair. So foundation tends to be very aging. But if you tell someone, "Well, you need to ditch foundation and stick to tinted moisturizer," what happens is a lot of women in their 40s and 50s, and I do believe a lot of this is due to alcohol consumption and wine every night of the week, but women start to get rosacea. There's more rosacea than probably ever before. So a tinted moisturizer won't cover the discoloration on your nose, cheeks, and chin. So there is a way to go in with a heavier foundation on those cheeks and chin and blend it over a tinted moisturizer so you're covering the areas that need more coverage without covering all of the other areas that look old when you use foundation. So I'm not a big fan of foundation and you really have to be strategic with it as you get older. Sometimes it's just trial and error, finding the right one that works for you. Doryn Wallach: Okay. So tinted moisturizer. The other thing I feel is a necessity is concealer, but again, we can have that same issue where it sits in lines. So personally, I apply concealer from the inner part of my eye just about to the middle of my eye and then I tap it into my skin and I use a translucent powder. I don't want to go anywhere near my crow's feet because you see women that do that and it sticks in there. I'm sure you have more tips about concealer than I do. Michelle Spieler: Yeah, so I have had a love-hate relationship with concealer since my 30s when I started developing that sunken-ness under the eye because of the orbital bone is showing. You get indentations and people are like, "I can't get rid of these dark circles." Honey, those are not dark circles. Those are indentations on your face and you can't cover an indentation. So it's really hard because if you want to cover any discoloration or hide the shadows of the indentation, you need heavier coverage, but then, again, that shows more texture, it looks crinkly, it's not pretty close up, it doesn't look like real skin. So women tend to be very aging under the eyes. This brings me to tip number four, is stop following makeup artists on social media who take the concealer and they do it from the tear duct out to the outside of the eye and it's huge and they blend it in with a Beauty Blender. That's fine if you're 20. Personally I wouldn't do a 20 year old like that. But concealer needs to also be strategically placed, put it only where you want to hide an imperfection, and really pat it in with your fingers to really melt it into the skin. At 53, I'm actually okay. I'd rather see a little bit of darkness but have skin under my eye than seeing a lot of makeup under my eye. Doryn Wallach: Yeah, I agree with that. I'm starting to get a little... that indentation under my eye. It's purply. Michelle Spieler: Yeah, and it gets deeper and deeper. If you're in good lighting, then it looks great. If you have a window flooding your space, it floods it out. It looks great. But unfortunately, we can't walk around with great lighting everywhere. The best thing is fillers. A friend of mine across the country, she just sent me some pictures, she got hers filled. They look absolutely beautiful, but you have to make sure you really go to the right person. Doryn Wallach: I know. I was going to say I've seen it done and it's been really bad on some friends. That scares me. Yeah. I know you have to go to someone really good, but even the ones in New York City that people say are really good aren't that great. So yes, it does make a big difference for a lot of people. You don't think it makes your eyes look squinty? Michelle Spieler: I don't know. I'm probably going to try it someday and I'll let you know what I think. Doryn Wallach: Oh, good. Okay. This is a good thing you're a little ahead of me. Michelle Spieler: I'm definitely ahead of you. Another thing I'd love to see women stop doing is contouring and highlighting. This is another thing that is overdone. Most makeup artists who are real, professional makeup artists, we're sick to death of seeing the contouring, the highlighting. It's just too much. It's way too much. I see older gals walking around with products and placement much like the younger women of social media and it's very, very aging. So I would say to someone who wants to contour, unless you maybe are carrying a little extra weight and your face is maybe a little rounder and you do want to get a little bit of a chiseled cheekbone, then you're a good candidate for that, but most women look older when they contour. It's going to back to, like you said, it's not pretty. It does not look like pretty, healthy skin. Doryn Wallach: I do think though something to make you glow is important. Michelle Spieler: Me too. Doryn Wallach: For me, I actually put it all over and then I powder out the spill everywhere but my cheekbones, so it just looks like a natural highlight on my cheekbones. I just found this great... I was actually trying to find it. I posted it on my social media. It's called Touch In Sol Pretty Filter Glassy Skin Balm. Have you heard of it? Michelle Spieler: No. Sounds fabulous. Doryn Wallach: It makes your skin look great. It's not too greasy and it's not shimmery, which I think sets into lines. It highlights the places that should be highlighted naturally. I love it. Michelle Spieler: Exactly. That's what I'm talking about. Natural, glowy skin, not strategically placed metallic powder that a satellite from outer space could pick up. It's too much. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. What else can you do to make your skin look glowy? Because I think that's probably the number one thing women are seeing at our age is that we're losing that glow. Michelle Spieler: Yeah, so I'm still super glowy at 53, but I really think, again, it goes back to the water, it goes back to my skincare. I've gotten into clean beauty recently and I've noticed a huge difference kicking the toxins out and using just clean chemicals that are proven to help skin and nourish skin without any links to endocrine or hormone disrupters or cancer. So I've noticed a huge difference in my skin in the last five to six months due to that. But also, like you said, you could find topical products. I think as you get older, if you could find a luminous lotion or a highlighter that comes in a cream stick and you could put that strategically in areas that it'll look like skin, but I would really avoid powder highlighters for most women. Doryn Wallach: So clean beauty, are you talking just skincare or makeup also? Michelle Spieler: For me, right now, I really am sticking to clean skincare 100%, but I'm slowly switching over to clean beauty and I'm going to be switching my professional makeup kit over to clean beauty. I'm getting more requests for it, but it just makes me feel good to be putting products on someone that, again, isn't linked to anything health-related. Before, it was very inferior in quality. Now, they have really upped the game. There are some great, great products on the market that are absolutely beautiful and are clean and I can start building a kit with. Doryn Wallach: You would be so disappointed if you saw what I put on my face. Michelle Spieler: No, I wouldn't because I was into clean beauty in 2015 big time and then I got out of it and got back into all the traditional makeup. So for years, I've been wearing the traditional stuff that scored high on toxicity as well. So I don't judge anybody and I really would never... I'm not legalistic. I would never tell someone, "Hey, you need to throw all of your products away. You're going to get cancer. You need to go to..." No, no, no. That's silly. I just think you do a clean swap. As you run out of a shampoo, use it up. You spent good money on it. But could we now look for a shampoo that maybe scores low on toxicity or you finally run out of a tinted moisturizer? Could you find one that scores lower on toxicity? It's those little clean swaps as you run out of products to slowly start building cleaner things into your regime, whether it's makeup or skincare or body or hygiene. I judge nobody because I've used everything under the sun. Doryn Wallach: Okay, well, that's good. I have a friend who works for a beauty counter and she knows not to contact me because I'm like, "No, thank you. I'll take my cancer makeup and my products. I'm good." Michelle Spieler: That's okay, that's okay. Doryn Wallach: I'm sure I'll get more into it. I think for me, it's more I don't believe that one company is everything. I think you need to find things in different places. So I do that. I do that. But it's one more thing to put on my list of things to do, so I have my comforts that work for me. But I do think it's important, so I will make that a goal of mine. I will switch out one thing at a time and hopefully find one. I'm going to be texting you. Michelle Spieler: Just keep thinking in the back of your head, "Okay, clean swap. As I run out of something more toxic, can I find something that's great quality, but lower toxicity?" Just do it that way, little by little, piece by piece. Again, I'm not an alarmist. I would never tell someone, "Oh, my gosh, you're going to get cancer if you use this brand or that brand." You know what? We already know what cancer does to people and we know it's a big, fat crapshoot. But if we could have a little bit more control of what we put in and on our body as we get older, why wouldn't we go that route? Doryn Wallach: Yeah. Absolutely. I think at this stage, I've been wearing the same makeup, doing the same makeup routine for probably the past 15 years. Now, I do a very classic, so I hope that it hasn't gone out of style, but I do see women who, and again, I don't judge either because I get it because I'm doing the same thing, but I do see women who are probably doing their same makeup from the '90s, the way they did it then, or they doing how they did when they were younger. I actually just want to tell you what I do. I'm curious what your recommendation is for shadow placement because that's actually one thing that I don't really know what I should or shouldn't be doing anymore. So when I do my makeup, and since I had kids and had a career, I've mastered how to do it very quickly, so after moisturizing, I put on my new glassy whatever its called stuff. Then I put a primer on my eyelids and a little bit under my eye where I put concealer. Then I do my concealer, use translucent over it, and then on my eyelids, I don't really contour anymore. I just put one base color. I do use a little shimmer because I think... Really honestly, everyone, it depends. I try not to say guys because I feel like I'm one of those... Like, "Hey, guys." Every time, I hear my mom in my head saying, "Women aren't guys." So everyone. So there are some of us who have crepey eyelids and I do think that shimmer starts to not look great on those eyelids. But I used to put a darker one in the contour of my lid. A) I just don't feel like I have time to go there anymore. Remember when I did my first smoky eye and I sent you pictures and you were so proud of me? Michelle Spieler: I was. Doryn Wallach: Nine years ago. Michelle Spieler: [crosstalk 00:34:00]- Doryn Wallach: So I do that. I do a little cream blush, which I started doing on the apples, but I actually started going up almost to my temple, really lighter up there. I feel like it lifts my face. Then I do an eye shadow which is actually a liner. It's a cream stick eye shadow that I use as a liner because it stays on. Then I take a little powder and I blend that out. That's pretty much it. Mascara. By the way, this is if I'm going somewhere. Michelle Spieler: That doesn't sound dated to me at all. Everything you just mentioned is, I would say, what works now. Like you mentioned before, you said it's a classic look. I do think that's a classic look and I think if you stick with a classic look, but then if you're going out somewhere fancy and you want to add what's trending, you could always add one thing to your face that's trending for that season, but still keep the rest of your face classic and I think that's smart. Doryn Wallach: Oh, and pressed powder I use on my T-zone. Is there any rule to shadow placement or does it depend on the person? A lot of women are scared of eye shadow. Michelle Spieler: Yeah, I find that to be true. I think women are most intimidated by eye makeup. Anyone can figure out cheeks and lips, but I get the most requests for eye makeup. I think it depends on the person, their eye shape. Do they have a hooded eye? Do they have an eye that's starting to sink in and they have a deep crease? Because obviously you're not going to put a dark shadow in a deep crease. You're going to use light colors to make the eye open up. A hooded eye, however, would have darker colors closer to the lash line and the eyeliner and then blend up, so it gets kind of ombre-ed. It's darker at the lash line and gets lighter and lighter as it goes up. But that's going to bring out a hooded eye. So the one mistake I see women making is that they want to still do the dark shadow in their crease, but very few women in their 40s and 50s need a dark shadow in their crease anymore. As far as shimmer, you mentioned shimmer, shimmer can show up a little, tiny bit of crepey-ness, but so can matte shadow. Sometimes if I do a matte shadow, it almost looks thicker and makes my crepey-ness look more pronounced than if I just did a really sheer, light shimmer which is more pretty. So I think it really just depends on what look you're going for and what formula of eye shadow you're using. But I do use shimmer on women of all ages these days. In the '90s- Doryn Wallach: I wear shimmer every day. I love it. It makes me feel... Michelle Spieler: Yeah, yeah. It's pretty. Doryn Wallach: People are always like, "Oh, your eye makeup is so great." I'm like, "I didn't do anything. I just put some shimmer on there." Michelle Spieler: You're doing something right. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. Okay, well, that's good to know. I was trying to look this up, but there's a makeup artist I really like on YouTube, Lisa Eldridge. Do you ever watch her? Michelle Spieler: Oh, yeah. So Lisa's... That's so funny you mention her. Lisa's one of my favorites. Doryn Wallach: Yeah, she does amazing... Michelle Spieler: I've been watching- Doryn Wallach: For our age, I feel like she really... Michelle Spieler: She's one of my favorites. I haven't been watching YouTube videos in a long time, I'll be honest. But I watched her years ago and every once in a while, I'll get a subscription notice on YouTube and I'll catch it for her. But she's just very sensible and I think she does pretty makeup, and that's what I'm about. I'm about pretty makeup. How do we make each person look their prettiest? Doryn Wallach: You do just such beautiful makeup and a ridiculously talented artist, not just makeup artist, but fine artist and could do so many... I'm just always in awe of you. Michelle Spieler: Thanks. Doryn Wallach: Before we get to the last thing, I just want to say that Michelle just got on TikTok. You are really good at it and I love it. I mean, you have to do it more. It's so funny. Michelle Spieler: Thanks. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. You're so good at it. So I signed up my daughter for TikTok in this pandemic and I was kind of against it. Then I was like, "You know what? You just feel so bad for these kids right now." I just wanted her to have... She doesn't have any other social media, so I was like, "You can have that." So I joined it to follow her and see what her friends were doing. Then I got totally obsessed. I literally look at it before I got to bed at night and I can't turn it off. I get the little guy who says, "Turn it off." But it's so funny because nobody my age that I know is on it. I feel like it's a little secret. I almost don't want them to go on it. But I am seeing... Maybe it's my for you page. I am seeing a lot of things coming in our age. I watch hair coloring. I find that fascinating. All different things. So anyway, just what is your TikTok handle? Michelle Spieler: Cleanbeautybabe. Doryn Wallach: Cleanbeautybabe. Okay. So last night, I did a TikTok as a... First, I wasn't going to do any. Three of my girlfriends were like, "Doryn, this is your wheelhouse. If you were 16 right now, you would have been a TikTok star." Because I had a video camera and I was always recording myself lip syncing and dancing and stuff. Michelle Spieler: Me too, me too. I loved it. Doryn Wallach: So I did one last night as a joke, and had a curse in it, but whatever, as a joke to mortify Tatum and she was like, "Mommy, that was really good." [crosstalk 00:39:56]- Michelle Spieler: I'll have to go find it. Doryn Wallach: I don't think it was really good. But anyway, TikTok, you actually can find a lot of inspiring things. It's not just watching teenagers dance. Michelle Spieler: No, and TikTok is... I mean, it's definitely taking over the world. It's funny because you said you feel like it's your little secret. Well, it's a little secret that billions- Doryn Wallach: I know. Michelle Spieler: ... and billions and billions of people are on it. It's funny because I was on TikTok for about a year and I was with it with Gracie back when it was Musical.ly. It was an app called Musical.ly. Doryn Wallach: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Michelle Spieler: Then it became TikTok. We were both on it and I was just on it more and more and more. Then quarantine hit in March and there was a day when I checked my phone and I had been on TikTok for four hours. Not in a row, but in that day, I had been on TikTok for four hours and so was Gracie. I said, "Babe, we have a problem." So we deleted it. I actually used to have a different... I was healthmomma and I had a different handle. We deleted our account. I went back on it in June secretly. Just to learn how to edit videos, not to get on TikTok. But what happened was in July, I was locked out of Facebook Live. I was no longer allowed to do Facebook Lives. I needed to talk about clean beauty and so I went on TikTok and started playing around. It's kind of skyrocketed, the community that I found there. It is a lot of women over 40 and 50 and they're so supportive. They totally get every silly thing that you do. But anytime I put any of my TikToks on Instagram, people are like, "Oh. Okay." Doryn Wallach: Yes, because they don't get it. That's why- Michelle Spieler: They don't. They don't. They don't get it. Doryn Wallach: That's why I'm saying it's my little secret. They're like, "Why are you doing that? You're too old." But if you look at all the other 40s and 50-somethings, and 30-somethings too, on TikTok, they're awesome people that you want to be friends with. Michelle Spieler: Oh, yeah. It's a really, really supportive community and nobody judges anyone and everyone's supportive and we all follow each other. So I'm having the time of my life and I'm just getting started because I've written so many ideas down today of videos I'm going to work on. For me now, it's a super, super fun hobby and community in a time in this country where we have so much political divide and racial tension. While I'm not suggesting that TikTok will assuage all of that, it will certainly lift your spirits a little bit with some really great laughs. Yes, I learn great things from doctors. I learn great things from psychologists. I learn great things from, like you said, hair stylists and people who do color. I learned how to make the best steak of my life from a guy I followed for a year on there. So- Doryn Wallach: I just learned how to take the skin off a kiwi. I mean- Michelle Spieler: Yeah. See what I'm saying? It's an incredible world and I'm not trying to encourage people to get on it if they don't want to, but I feel like you're missing out. It's a good time over there. Doryn Wallach: Well, you know what the other thing is? I'm so over... I haven't been on Facebook in years. I only have it for Groups and I don't follow anybody. I have my business page. But I find Instagram so bad for my mental health because I just, and everybody, I feel like all it is is trying to show off in some ways. Yes, there are pages that are honest with funny memes. What I love about TikTok is it's just like there's a lot of honesty and a lot of bitching sometimes too, which it's kind of refreshing to see as opposed to people trying to pretend that their life is amazing. There's that too. I think we all need a little bit of our lives. My daughter said, she's like, "Mommy, the reason I like TikTok," especially the pandemic started, she said, "I feel like I'm not alone in some of the ways I've been feeling and I see other people being honest about what they're feeling or something that's making them anxious. They're making a joke about it." Anyway, I didn't mean to go off on a TikTok conversation, but I think your TikTok's awesome. Hey, can you maybe send some followers to me? Because I only have like 20. Michelle Spieler: Yeah. For sure. I'll tell you what you have to do, is you have to do a TikTok dance. Because I got like, I don't know, I got 300 followers literally overnight because I did a stupid- Doryn Wallach: Really? Michelle Spieler: Because I did a stupid TikTok dance. I said, "I'm only coming in TikTok to educate. I'm only coming on TikTok to watch and have fun," and here I am now doing TikTok dances. Yeah, and I'm posting one tonight, a different dance tomorrow. It's what's getting me the most attention, but I don't care because if it gets more people to my page, then I can educate people on makeup and clean beauty. I'm having fun dancing and I'm probably losing weight. Doryn Wallach: I danced for 18 years. Tatum tried to teach me some of these dances and I was like, "I can't do that. There's too many things going on at once." But maybe I'll find something that I can do. Michelle Spieler: You have to find what you can do and you have to be patient. Some of these dances are only 12 seconds and they might take me 90 minutes to learn. Then you- Doryn Wallach: Yeah, I'm not patient. Michelle Spieler: Yeah. You have to be patient. So I highly recommend it. Doryn Wallach: All right. All right. Cool. I really love it and it's hard to say that to my daughter because I'm always like, "Get off TikTok." All right. One of the last things I want to bring up, because this is a very real issue and problem with women, and I have mentioned this before, I have a lot of hormonal issues. I have had them since I got my first period. It's a battle I've been fighting my whole life. I'm actually waiting to do an episode because I just found an amazing person who I think is actually helping me for the first time. Michelle Spieler: Wonderful. Doryn Wallach: Yeah, but I'm not there yet. So I want to have a positive ending before we talk about that. But alcohol. So I notice you're actually very good about it. Unless you're hiding, but I noticed you're like, "I'm having my one glass of wine this week. It's Friday night." Most women are not doing that, especially now, and are coping with anxiety and coping with having their kids home all day with wine and alcohol. There are definitely times in my life where I was drinking more frequently and then would take a week off and would realize what a huge difference it made in my skin. So we know alcohol is not good for your skin. We know it's dehydrating. Oh, and also, so bad for your hormones. So with every year, I'm sure all of you are realizing that with every year, wine especially, the sugars in wine, are almost intolerable. I only drink wine if I'm day drinking, which is rare, but I love wine. So if I'm at a restaurant having lunch, I order a glass of wine because I just love it. But I can't... If I have more than two glasses and sometimes even that, it just really messes with my sleep, it makes me more anxious. A doctor I talked to recently told me that, yeah, you need to stick to either clean alcohol like tequila, which has low sugar. He also mentioned sake, if you're a sake lover. He mentioned prosecco actually as being one of the lower sugar wines, which I never knew. Michelle Spieler: Oh, really? That's surprising because prosecco has so much fruit in it, but it doesn't necessarily mean sugar. Doryn Wallach: But you'll see, I could have a few glasses of prosecco and I sleep fine. It doesn't bother me at all. So aside from that, that could be a whole other podcast. Is there any tip in balancing it? Because look, we're in hard times right now, so I don't think there are a lot of people giving up alcohol completely, but would you have any advice on how to balance it so that your skin isn't totally dehydrated from it? Michelle Spieler: Yes, so I equate alcohol to sugar consumption. We've all read the book Sugar Busters or Atkins or Keto this, Keto that. We've read all these books. We know that when you cut sugar out of your system, your body stops craving it. Same with alcohol. The more alcohol you have, the more alcohol you want. When I started the quarantine, I'm going to be honest, I really was enjoying a low carb beer every afternoon and sometimes it was two if I'm honest. Low carb beer does not mean that you're not going to gain weight because when you break a beer or a wine down into macros, people don't want to do this and they don't want to hear it, but when you break it down, one glass of wine or one low carb beer actually works out to about 30 grams of carbs for four to five ounces. How many people drink four to five ounces? Not very many. So really a low carb beer might even be more like 50 or 60 carbs. When you're adding that all up to your day, you're going to just pack on the water, you're going to pack on the pounds. So I really think that if you just cut it out and save it for special occasions, then you're really going to enjoy it and savor it on special occasions. But if it becomes a coping mechanism, if you cannot wait to have your wine every night, because I get it, online school with kids at home, I get it, it's stressful, but turn to something else. Turn to a nice bath. Turn to a nice book. Do some type of exercise that you really, really love. Like I said, I've been dancing a lot lately and I'm really enjoying it again. So you have to find more constructive, healthy ways to cope. Doryn Wallach: I haven't figured it out for me yet, but a lot of women swear by CBD helping them in different ways. There are teas and different ways of taking it. I actually didn't know that it's a cumulative, so you actually have to do it all the time for it to actually have any benefits. Michelle Spieler: Got it. Doryn Wallach: I think it's overwhelming how much is out there on it, so just I wish somebody would actually explain it a little bit more clearly, but yeah. Michelle Spieler: Well, there's a podcast. You need a CBD expert because I don't know a whole lot about it either. I know that it helps with sleep, so I'm looking into possibly some for my daughter. She has trouble going to sleep and staying asleep. But I don't know enough about it and there's so much conflicting information on Google. It's overwhelming. Doryn Wallach: That's exactly what I mean. Okay. You know what? Actually, that's a good podcast episode. Michelle Spieler: That's a good podcast. Let me know and I will tune in. Doryn Wallach: Okay. So alcohol, my piece of advice, if you're going to drink it, I drink two glasses of water for every glass of alcohol that I have. Michelle Spieler: You know what else helps too with... because you mentioned the sugars, as you get older, the hangovers get worse. You could even have just one glass of wine and the next day, you feel very foggy. But there's those charcoal tablets that you can have ahead of time and they kind of help. But I just have really cut it out of my life altogether and I only have it for the most very, very special occasions and then that makes it more special for me. Because I work way too hard on my nutrition and my fitness to let alcohol derail my efforts. I just felt alcohol made me look older, it made me feel older, and it made me kind of unproductive the next day. Doryn Wallach: So true. So true. It gets harder and harder with every year. When I was starting this podcast, I'd tell women, "You're not going to feel this dramatic shift at 40." It's like now I'm 43, I'm starting to feel the shifts now. You don't turn 40 and go, "Ooh. Oh, yeah, everything is changing." Every year, you get a new thing. Michelle Spieler: Oh, yes. Let me tell you, 47 was a colossal shift for me. Even I would say 52, even last year. I mean, suddenly you'll wake up one day and gravity just took a toll somewhere on your body and you're like, "What? For real?" Doryn Wallach: Oh, no. Michelle Spieler: Overnight. But, I mean, we have to start really embracing aging and making it a positive thing because if we are positive about it, then our epigenetics will keep us heathy and give us longevity. Whereas if we're just always thinking like we're depressed that we're aging or, "Oh, this falls. This doesn't look good." That is so negative to your mind and to your physiological health. So we have to start really having a message of pro aging and showing the younger women in their 30s and 20s that there is nothing at all to fear, to embrace it and love life, because that's what's infectious to other people. Doryn Wallach: I'm so happy you said this because when you started talking about how bad 47 was, I was like, "No!" Because my podcast is about looking at this next part of our lives in a positive way and not scaring anybody. So I so appreciate that you just said that. What comes with that, not just what you said, but naturally your mindset will shift like that. Naturally you will just be more grateful for every day and naturally you won't give a crap about anything. You just don't care anymore. Michelle Spieler: Right? Doryn Wallach: That is one of the best things. I think it's so liberating to not care what people think anymore. I'm not totally there yet, but my mom always tells me, "Oh, your 50s is when you really don't care and your 40s, you are just starting that. Your 30s, a little bit selfish as you get to the end of it, changes a little bit." Michelle Spieler: Yeah, I'll hop into Facebook or Instagram Live and not have a stitch of makeup on or I'll talk about taboo topics and people are like, "How do you do that?" I'm like, "Because I don't give a rat's ass what anyone thinks." If I'm helping one person out there, that's why I do this. Doryn Wallach: Amen. I agree. I feel the same way. Well, we added a couple little bonuses in here after our five topics, but I'm not going to go too much into it. But obviously fitness, you brought it up, it's important. I have found that weights are so much more important to me now than cardio. Michelle Spieler: Yes! Thank you. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. By the way, I do 20 minute weight workouts. Those 20 minute weight workouts have made a much bigger difference in my body than any... I used to go to SoulCycle like six days a week and my body didn't change. But with each year, as I do weights, I find that it's what's helping keep my weight off and keeping my body in somewhat decent shape. I mean, it's not so great, but- Michelle Spieler: That's right. Well, that's because muscle burns fat and doing all the cardio, cardio, cardio, cardio, you're just burning calories. But muscle burns fat. When you do weight resistance, when you do weights, it actually builds your bone density. There are so many women over 40 who have osteoporosis and this shouldn't be. I had a bone density test when I was 50 years old, that was three years ago, and my bone density was that of a 29 year old. I know 100% without a shadow of a doubt it's because I have been doing weights and strength training for largely a decade and a half. Doryn Wallach: Just to make it clear, we're not talking about heavy lifting. This can be as simple as a five pound weight that you're using. There are so many great YouTube videos. I have posted some in my stories on Instagram of people that I like. I like the quiet people. I don't want to hear you yelling and talking about your life the whole time I'm working out. I just want like let's just do the workout. That will continue. The more I discover, the more I'll continue to post those on my stories as well. Michelle, I love you so much. I have- Michelle Spieler: I love you. Doryn Wallach: I wish I could see you at some point. Michelle Spieler: I know. Doryn Wallach: I have one question I leave with all of my guests, which is what would you tell your late 30, early 40-something self today if you could? What kind of advice would you give yourself back then? Michelle Spieler: I think it would be... Well, number one, we covered it. Put sunscreen on your neck and your hands. But also to stop playing the what-if or if-only game. When you look back on mistakes or you look back on decisions you made and you're like, "Well, what if I had done this," or, "If only I had done this," you have to stop that game. You have to shut that down and only look forward because looking forward is all that matters. We don't look in our rear view mirror when we're driving. We look forward. Doryn Wallach: Love that. I love, love, love that. Tell the listeners where they can find you. Michelle Spieler: Oh, yeah. So on Facebook, I'm Michelle Spieler. It's S-P-I-E-L-E-R. On Instagram, I'm Michelle M, for Maria, michellemspieler. On TikTok, I'm cleanbeautybabe. Doryn Wallach: Okay. Great. I guarantee you're all going to start following her and fall in love with her as much as I am. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show today and- Michelle Spieler: Thanks, Doryn. Doryn Wallach: ... it was really wonderful having you. As usual, if you could please rate and review the podcast, it would be really helpful and appreciated. Sharing the podcast with your friends would be helpful to everyone out there. I will be back with an episode soon. It's September and things are going to get a little nuts. Thank you for listening to It's Not a Crisis and I'm looking forward to speaking to all of you again very soon.

EPISODE 7 We are all starting new chapters of life and reevaluating our current situations. Our children are getting older and many women in their 40's are considering new business ideas and working from home. Starting a new business, especially in the midst of current events, can be tricky. Doryn Wallach, is back with a first solo episode, where she shares her own experience as a businesswoman with a number of successful ventures to her portfolio. In this episode, you will learn 5 tips and tricks that you can apply to your own situation. Also, you get a little peek into Doryn’s personal life and experience. Please follow the show @ItsNotACrisisPodcast on both Instagram and Facebook for behind-the-scenes content, memes, and updates. Products / Websites Mentioned: https://www.writtenoutloud.org/ https://www.tiktok.com/ https://www.instagram.com/ https://www.picmonkey.com/ https://www.wix.com/ And remember: It's not a crisis!

How to swipe right on the rest of your life with dating expert Amy Nobile EPISODE 6 Amy Nobile is back for another episode, as she joins us again to discuss dating over 40. She touches on multiple topics - from setting up your dating profile, to figuring out first dates, how to banter, and much more. Amy is the founder of LoveAmy.co, a dating concierge that specializes in building entire strategies for dating. She encourages women over 40 to set up healthy expectations for dating, to communicate clearly and boldly and to analyze who they are and who they’re looking to attract. Products/ Websites Mentioned: https://bumble.com/ https://hinge.co/ EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Doryn Wallach: Welcome to episode five of It's Not A Crisis, a podcast for women in their 40s seeking to navigate midlife's challenges while making the most of it. I am your host, Doryn Wallach, and today's episode is really, really fun. Before I tell you a little bit about it, I just wanted to, as usual, be super annoying and make sure that you are rating, subscribing and sharing the podcast with your friends and family, either on Facebook, Instagram or by text, whatever's easier for you. You can also find me on It's Not A Crisis Podcast on Instagram, as well as Facebook, where we have a group for questions and discussions. You can email me at, itsnotacrisis@gmail.com, or subscribe to my newsletter at itsnotacrisis.com. Now, that that's out of the way, all that stuff is really important to me, so I appreciate it, but I just have to say it every time because that's what helps other women listen to the podcast. I hope everybody is doing well. And hopefully, today's episode is going to make you smile a little bit. In my very first episode, I had interviewed Amy because her latest book, Just When You're Comfortable in Your Own Skin, It Starts to Sag, was the inspiration behind my entire podcast, actually, starting this. We had such a beautiful conversation about how this doesn't have to be a negative time in your life, this needs to be a positive time in your life. And I think that her book just made you feel not alone in all of this. I have gotten countless emails and messages from listeners about dating after 40, and this is not anything I know about. The last time I went on a date was in 1999 with my husband, so I had reached out to Amy to see if she wanted to come on the show again. This is a really fun episode. Even if you're not dating, you never know when you might need to date. The way that Amy runs her business is so smart and so great that if you're out there online dating, you are going to learn something from today's show. Amy is a best-selling, Oprah-featured coauthor of four books, all designed to empower and inspire women at various stages of their lives. She's also the co-founder of ASH AMES, a company showcasing unique jewelry, handmade by various female artisans around the globe. Amy's latest venture is Love, Amy, a dating concierge service that marries the technology of modern day dating with a holistic view of human-to-human energy and connection. Amy, I'm so happy that you're back on the show. Amy Nobile: I am too. Let's talk. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. So our first podcast, which was my very first podcast, was literally right before they started the quarantine. I was thinking about this, I think you were the last person I had interaction with in normal life. And I think we weren't even hugging at that point, right? I don't remember. I feel like we were still a little cautious. Amy Nobile: We were being cautious, but little did we know that that was it, after that, lockdown. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. Anyway, I'm not going to even talk about that because nobody wants to talk about that anymore. Amy Nobile: It's [inaudible 00:03:27]. Doryn Wallach: [inaudible 00:03:27]. I'm doing this podcast today for the many women that have reached out to me. Clearly, this is something I know nothing about. The last time I was on a date was in 1999, like the stone ages, that was with my husband, and it was a blind date. And so, clearly I know nothing about online dating or dating in general. I don't even think I dated that much before I met my husband, but a friend once let me swipe her Bumble when we were out drinking one night and it- Amy Nobile: That's a very fun pass time for married folks. Doryn Wallach: It was so much fun. And I get to pick her matches and I started responding as her. I've actually done that for a few friends, but I can imagine it wouldn't be as much fun if this was actually my life and I was looking for a partner. I know that it's not easy for women to get back out there, or if you're just a single woman in your 40s in general, I would imagine it's not so easy. So I'm excited to have you on here, but I do need to preface this with, I know nothing but I'm excited to learn. I mean, who knows, my husband might kick me out and I might need you to save me. Amy Nobile: [crosstalk 00:04:30]. Doryn Wallach: Hopefully not. Hopefully not. Amy Nobile: But no, I'm thrilled to be talking to you. I am living and breathing this, and it is, besides my children, the love of my life, this job. And I do feel like it's my true calling. And so it's a joy to be talking about it. And any wisdom I can bestow to any of my 40-plus angels out there, I'm happy to do so. Doryn Wallach: All right. So first tell me how you just... because you're like me, you've had a million businesses and done a million things. So, tell me how you decided to start the business and the concept and what makes you the expert to take over and do this for women? Amy Nobile: Well, I don't know. No, I'm kidding. No, no, no. So I am a serial entrepreneur, as you know, and I'm a four-time author. And in the course of writing the latest book called, Just When You're Comfortable in Your Own Skin, It Starts to Sag, and this latest book came out a few years ago. And in the course of writing this book, which is all about inspiring women to make conscious choices for their lives at 40-plus, and to look at the second half of their lives as like the better half, because it really can be. And in the course of interviewing hundreds of women and them talking about leaving their marriages, I knew that I had to make this very difficult, hardest thing I'd ever done, choice to leave my marriage of 20 years. We'd been together 26. And there was nothing contentious going on. we had just become roommates, he's a great guy, and we're incredibly amicable even now, but I had to leave, and I did it. And I was tossed into the dating world after 26 years. And I would sit around with my gaggle of single, beautiful, rockstar girlfriends shortly thereafter, and they were like, "Oh, it's horrible. You will hate it. Good luck, sister. This is the worst thing ever. This whole online, there's creeps and it's disgusting." I'm looking around the table, I'm like, "Okay, hold up. You guys are total... You're the full packages, you cannot tell me that your counterparts don't exist." Like, "Well, whatever. No, we tried it, it's horrible." So I dove in like it was my job. I have this crazy, as you know, Doryn, the social enterprising brain. And I looked at it more like an experiment, and I quite literally made dating my job, and I went full force. There were certain days I was dating four to six people per day- Doryn Wallach: Oh my God, that sounds awful. Amy Nobile: I know, it does sound awful. And guess what? I made every mistake in the book that you can make. It was almost like condensing six months of dating or a year of dating into a few months because I was determined. But at first, I was like, crappy, fuzzy pictures. I didn't write anything. I wasn't portraying myself as me. I was portraying myself the way I thought guys would want to see me, like part hero. And I was just like calling in, I'm super spiritual. It was just the guys that were attracted to me were not the right guys. And so then I started to get scientific about it and I started to really work on my profile and pictures and dig deep within myself. I was in therapy and energy work and manifesting, and all this stuff. And all of a sudden, things started to click, and I started to really, really call in, like, wow. And I met this incredible human a couple of years ago. And I was also dating another amazing person at the same time. So it was just like, whoa. My girlfriends were like, "Are you kidding? What is happening?" And I was having a ball. Doryn Wallach: But they have been so mad at you. What the hell? Amy Nobile: They were baffled. There was all the emotions going on. And I was like, "No, no, you guys, come here." I would just grab their phone and I'd started redoing their profiles. And I was like, "What is going on here?" You're not portraying yourself as you, this is not who you are authentically. So I would redo their stuff and they would still sit there, and I'm like, "What is wrong?" And so then I was like, "Give me your password. I'm going to just be you. What's your schedule in the next month?" And I started spitting out dates for them. And they were going on more dates in a month than they had gone on any year. And then all of a sudden, little by little, they started meeting really quality people. And one day, I was sitting there, and I thought, "Is this a thing? This can't be a thing. Is this a thing? Could I do this? Could I get paid to do this? Is this so cheesy? Is this really bad? Is this a really good idea?" And I decided to go for it. And The New York Times wrote about it really quickly before I even had a website up. And they were like, "Guess what? You better put your website up." And then the Today Show did... It just took off. I was just on the train, it took off. And now, I can't even keep up with the amount of people approaching me. My clients are 25 to 75, mostly female, some male. And that's my big mouthful of how I started that. Doryn Wallach: Oh my God. That's amazing. That's amazing. The problem with being such a brilliant mind like Amy is that... and entrepreneurial and creative is that you come up with these things and you have to do them, and you've exceeded them. And then you're "Okay, onto the next." I mean, it's good when you find the one that you really feel passionate about, and it takes a few, it's like dating, it takes you to the right one. Amy Nobile: It's true. It's true. Your brain doesn't stop and then... The message here for our fellow entrepreneurs, because a lot of listeners are just like you and I, it's, you really do have to listen to your gut. And it's great. You have all these great ideas, but then you have to listen, even if the world is... I mean, every step of the way, everyone said, "She's nuts. What are you doing now?" You know? Doryn Wallach: Right. I know perfect. Amy Nobile: So you do? You have to hone that instinct. But anyway, that's another podcast topic. Doryn Wallach: Yeah, exactly. That's a great idea though, actually. I need to figure that one out. So I want to first talk about where you need to be within yourself to be ready to date. Because I would imagine it's very difficult to find that place of being ready, whether you've been married for a long time or you're just coming into your 40s, which I do think as a time to figure out who you are. I'd love to know what the key is to this. What do you tell women? Amy Nobile: Yeah, it's interesting. I just love talking about this. I give my clients a 10-page intake form. A lot of therapists refer me. I'm sort of like part therapist, part energy worker, and a lot dating coach. But here's the deal, and I learned this really pretty quickly within myself, is that you can only meet someone as deeply as you've met yourself. And that is really important. And the first question I ask people on this intake form is, "How much have you worked on yourself? What self-care do you employ on a daily, weekly, monthly, yearly?" And it always throws people for a loop. They're "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on. I want to date, just teach me the tool. Doryn Wallach: That's the problem. That's the problem. Amy Nobile: Right. And so then I have to backtrack into it with them. And once we start to... I scratch the surface and then I get to the next layer and we get to the next layer. because here's the deal, we all carry... This is going to sound deep right now, a little too therapeutic. But we do, we carry wounds from how we saw love growing up, we carry wounds from our last hurtful relation. We carry that stuff. And if we don't really work on that and at least figure out why you're feeling hurt. Everybody has wounds, everybody. I don't care who you are. And so that is a revelation to people because you're like, "Okay, I'm 40-plus, I'm a grownup. I've done therapy. I'm really open-minded." But we still do. Even just to be a self-aware, I get clients talking about "Okay, I really haven't honored myself that much. I'm not on my priority list. I need to really work on this stuff." That's the first major thing that we talk about before we even can start. Doryn Wallach: And by the way, that's kind of the premise of my podcast too, because in order to enjoy this next stage of life, we need to do the work now, and we need to work on ourselves. I have a lot of friends who are stubborn about doing work in therapy and think they have it figured out, but aren't quite sure or just talk about it a lot. And my friends that actually, unfortunately, unfortunately for them, if they're happy, I've a lot of friends who are getting divorced and they'll rush into something immediately. While again, I'm not an expert, knowing that just as a friend, I'll say, "Don't you feel you need to work on yourself first and be alone and selfish for a little bit until you figure out exactly what that is you want in somebody else?" I can see how that's really important. Amy Nobile: You're 100% right. And by the way, I say no a lot to people. After our first initial call, and I do a lot of first calls free of charge because I love what I do and I just want to... And I say no a lot, because I can just tell that somebody is not... I don't want to compromise success. It's not worth it. And you're absolutely right. And that's definitely the first step. Doryn Wallach: Well, what if people have zero interest in online dating? How do you change their minds about that? Because I know I have a lot of friends who are now single and they're like, "Uh-ah. I'm not going near that. I have no interest." Amy Nobile: Yeah. That's great. That's a great question, and I get it all the time, and I always smile when I get it. Here's the deal, people will say, "Oh my God, I swiped for five minutes and I wouldn't date 99% of the people on these apps." And I say, "Here's the deal. A, you're not going to meet someone in aisle six, we're in a new generation. B, if you walk down the street right now, would you date 99% of anyone you walk by? No." So here's the deal, the apps are gifts, because there are millions and millions and millions of people now on the apps. This is the way, the number one way to meet someone. But it's just the how, how do I go about doing it? Because it's really scary. At any given day, if you dip your toe into any of the apps, it is a horrifying. And I get it because it's like, oh my God, people are coming at you. It's really, there's a strategy to it, and there's a way to go in and... I've cracked the code. There is a process so that you can feel in control of it and you can feel you are driving the process and calling in the right people and attracting the right people. There really is this process. My success rate is 80%, That's high, and so I know that it works. Doryn Wallach: Are there apps that you specifically like more than others? Or you're not allowed to say that? Amy Nobile: Oh no, no. No, it's fine. I'm not being sponsored by anybody. It's really interesting. I work with clients all over the country, like Bumble, for instance, not as good in DC as it is in Dallas. So I know which apps are good for which age ranges in what cities. And that's just has come from experience. If someone's listening and they want to dip their toe in and they're 40 plus, it's Bumble and Hinge as a general rule. Start with Bumble, it's the easiest one. It's a little bit more curated, and the women make the first move, which is great because it again puts you in the driver's seat. Doryn Wallach: I feel those are the ones that I've heard about. Amy Nobile: For your audience, it's Bumble first and then Hinge. And they're both good. Doryn Wallach: So just to go back a little bit, you had mentioned that you carry your childhood wounds in your relationship based on the love that you've seen or the love that you've had. How do you get unstuck from that? How does somebody move forward? You say do the work in therapy, but is there more that they can be doing or is it just a one-on-one relationship to try to figure that out? Amy Nobile: It's interesting, that's a heavy thing. Yes, it absolutely starts with therapy. It's one of those deep dive things, you don't have to spend a ton of money or a ton of time on it, but it's just being conscious of it. If we each sit down and think about it for a bit, it's like, oh. That's one of the questions I ask my clients, "What did love look like in your house?" And that's just a little bit of a different spin. We all have like, "Oh gosh, I had a difficult stepdad," or, "My mom left my dad," or whatever. Even if your parents were happily married, there's still dynamics that you absorbed that you could still work on. Maybe there was some disrespect going on, because I always say you accept the love you think you deserve. And so there's all kinds of things and dynamics. So it's just being conscious of that. So I really work through that, at least begin to work through that with my clients. And then I will literally say, "Go do some therapy for three months and come back to me. If there's just too much, I know what I'm not, I'm certainly not a therapist, but I can guide." And then they'll come back and we'll talk it through and I'll say, "Okay, I think you're ready now. Let's go." So it's really just, A, exploring it within yourself. And if you need a little bit more help in digging through that, then do it. Doryn Wallach: So what happens now? So I've done the work and I come to you and I say, "All right, let's do this." Then what do you do? Amy Nobile: Yeah, I get really excited. It's my favorite thing, and we launch. And the way that we launch is, it's the 10-page intake form, and that's the first thing we do. And there's all kinds of questions on there. And some are designed because to reverse engineer, I know what questions I'm looking for, the fun, little quirky stuff I need to tease out. But here's the deal, this is really important. I said this within my, how I made the mistakes, but people really want to portray themselves the way they think others should see them. And I, and I'm goofy, and I'm literally just what you see is what you got, I'm an open book. And I have to get to know my clients in that way. I need to know. There'll be clients who are just so serious, a CEO, and literally within 45 minutes I can see they're they're imitating people, and they've gotten voices. I'm like, "Wait, where did that come from? Oh my God, you're hilarious." So I'm teasing out really who they are, because that's the... You want to attract the right person and not the other serious CEO, but who are you, really? This is silly, but one of my clients in New York carries a blender. She travels with a blender because she's obsessed with smoothies. And she's hilarious. I tease that out. And really, it's one of my favorite profiles I put together because you read her profile and you can't not laugh. And so the guys she's starting to attract are such good matches for her. So that's kind of where we start, we put together a strategy, which apps. I review pictures. I'm really obsessed with that, I'm really picky about it, I take a lot of my own pictures for clients. You have four seconds in that lead photo, you can't have a hat, you can't have sunglasses, no selfies, no group shots. Your sparkle has to sign in that lead photo. So that's the first little bit that we work on. Doryn Wallach: I have a friend who, we've been very close through her separation, and I've seen her profile and she is the most amazing woman. She is smart, she is funny, she is beautiful, she is loving. I wouldn't just say this, I don't say this about every single person I know, but she's amazing. She's amazing. She's such a good friend too. Actually, I was going to start this podcast with her, but we ended up not doing that just out of the interest of time. But I remember looking at her profile, I'd have no idea what it's doing now, but I remember looking at her profile thinking, "I just feel like you have to show how witty and funny you are, and this isn't doing it, but I don't know how to be you, witty. You need to be"- Amy Nobile: Totally. Totally. Doryn Wallach: So I get that. I get that. And I think there is this confusion about, who do I want to portray and who am I really? Or sometimes better for somebody else, like a friend or somebody like you to really call you out on who you are. Amy Nobile: Right. And it's awkward to be like, "I'm witty. I'm smart." Like, "Really? What are you... " So a lot of times I'll say like, "My BFF says I'm... " You know what I mean? There's just little tricks of the trade. So after we do that, this is the biggest barrier to entry besides... People can manage to put together a profile, they can speak it out, but the biggest barrier to entry for online dating really is the banter. It's the online app banter, because it's awkward. Everybody knows they're on the apps, and you've got a whole range of what people are looking for on the apps. And so the banter is like, "Who do I banter with? Ooh, what do I say? Oh my God, do I reply to this opening line?" So the banter part is really, really tough. So I do log on as my clients for the first month or so, and we can both be logged in and they'll watch me swipe and talk, I'll watch them swipe and talk. I hand the reigns over as quickly as I can because the training wheels have to come off. But they see like who I'm deleting and why. Doryn Wallach: What happens if they can't banter as well as you do? Amy Nobile: Well, the thing is that everybody can. Doryn Wallach: By the way, I banter much better on texts than I do in person. I'm hysterical on text message. Amy Nobile: No, no, you're hysterical in every medium, Doryn, that's for sure. Yeah, you would be an excellent banterer. But yeah, some people just get... I have clients who are really shy, and they literally... I'm an on-demand coach, very unique. I feel like when you need me, you need me. So like at 7:00 PM on a Tuesday, I'll get a screenshot of like, "Oh God, what do I say back?" And I love it, I am happy to help. But everybody can banter. Because it's just being you and it's been comfortable enough to be you not throw up over your real resume. It's just like, if you would retort with something funny and goofy, then do it, say that, because that's who you want to attract. So yeah, we work a lot on that in the first month. Doryn Wallach: You mentioned a couple of tips for your profile. Can you share a few of those? Amy Nobile: So I would say the biggest, biggest tip is, like I said to really, really be authentic and don't be afraid to tease out your goofiness. Also, what do you want? We really work on, what are we trying to achieve here? Who do we want? If it's a long-term relationship, which is 98% of my clients, because there's always 2% of other, whatever, but most people want a long-term relationship, it's okay to say that. It's okay to say, "We'll get along if, you're looking for a long-term relationship as well, you're caring, family-oriented." I think it's really important, especially at our age, let's not mess around, let's not throw the fishing pole out and see what we get. Let's be really specific about what we want. So that's a tip. That lead photo, just to go back to that, it's astonishing to me how many people hide? They'll put a picture that's just a little grainy or it's too far away, because they're hiding. Everybody, everybody, like your best friend sees that sparkle in your eye and that smile, and that's why that's your best friend. That's the spark I want. You have to see it. It's a very uncomfortable part of the job, but it's really, really important. So that lead photo has to be outside where you can totally see the color of your eye and you're smiling, and it's that look, it's that look when your best friend walks in the room and you're like, "Uh." That's what we need. We need that for the lead photo. Doryn Wallach: I feel like my friends tell me that most of the time, the guys never look anything like their photo. It's always a kind of a disappointment. Amy Nobile: I mean, that's a broad generalization. I think that does happen. I think though, it's easy to tell once you're doing it that people, they'll use older photos. Everybody, not everybody, a lot of people lie about their ages, men and women Doryn Wallach: By the way. Well, by the way, just hold on a second because this is so funny, and I'm not going to say any names. But when I was scrolling my friend's Bumble, I happened to see somebody that I know, that single, and his age was way off from his real age. And I screenshot it and I texted it to him and I said, "Huh, this isn't how old you are." And he's like, "First of all, why are you on Bumble? And second of all, are you the Bumble police?" And that explained this whole story to me. And I just thought it was so funny. Amy Nobile: Oh my God, that's hilarious. No, it's so true. It's really true. Really grainy photos. You can tell when photos are just old or the photos don't match up. Like, the first and the third, you're like, "What decade was this, seriously?" You get the hang, you get the hang of it. But again, you're going to encounter all of that. That's just part of it. Doryn Wallach: You had mentioned... I'll sound old and married when you say that, but you had mentioned ghosting to me, where were just talking about a few tips, and you said, "Don't take it personally." I want to hear more about that. I don't actually know what ghosting is. Does that mean where you just drop somebody completely? Amy Nobile: Very good, Doryn. Very good. Yes it is. Doryn Wallach: I've heard it used, but I never really spent the time to be what like, "What exactly is ghosting?" Amy Nobile: Lucky you have never had to experience that. So that's literally truth. Like, you'll be mid-sentence with someone and all of a sudden they go away. Literally, they disappear off the app. Or you can even be in a conversation for two days, and then now it's moved to cell phone and then they disappear. And I have a whole, I don't know, four or five pages of tips from my clients that I sent initially to them just to get them used to this crazy alien world called online dating, and ghosting is one of those things that freaks people out. It feels a personal assault and it feels rejection. And it's really crappy when it happens, but you have to get used to the fact that this... The profile is not the person, we don't know who they are. So this is a whole process and we're waiting, waiting, waiting. It's a numbers game. Someone can disappear. Guess what? That is a gift because that is a bullet dodge. That means someone's not ready. I talk a lot about grown-ups to my clients, we're looking for a grownup who's ready. So that's not a grownup, so good riddance. But you have to get in the mindset of not taking it personally. And that's hard. That's hard. Doryn Wallach: Oh my God, Amy, I feel like I have lived with so much guilt over this in my 20s when I was dating a lot, my early 20s. This right before I started dating Ty. I would just not call guys back when I didn't want to go on another date because I was too scared to be upfront and be like, "This isn't going to work." So they would call and call, and I would just completely drop them without any... I ghosted, I was ghosting. Amy Nobile: But it's was a good point. And I work a lot with clients on, this is a big deal, you go on two dates with someone or three dates. And I have a big three-date rule, after three dates, we're either cutting bait or not. We're not going to linger where we're not supposed to be. Doryn Wallach: That was Ty's rule when he was dating. Because we were friends and I used to hear about his dates, that's what he would do. Amy Nobile: No, totally. It's three days. But how do you gracefully exit something that's just one person's really into it and you're not. So it's again, I work with my clients all the time on that stuff. And at this point in our lives... It's okay when you're 20 or even in her 30s to just wiggle out, I just think accountability is really important just from an integrity standpoint now. So if you have gone on a few dates with someone and you're not... there's a way to gracefully have that conversation and you feel really good about it that you did a really nice job of telling them how you feel and gracefully- Doryn Wallach: Because you're a grownup. Amy Nobile: You're grown up. Doryn Wallach: You've gone in, you've helped with their profile, they find somebody they're interested in, it's time to go on a date. So, two questions. What do you recommend to do for a first date? And what kind of tips do you give for a first date? Amy Nobile: Yeah. This is one of my favorite, favorite tips that I learned the hard way. So for your first date, it should never, ever, ever be longer than 45 minutes, and you should never give away a whole night. Women, do not do that. I cannot tell you how many Thursday nights, Friday nights I'd be sitting there trapped, just slugging wine, looking at the clock. This is somewhat of a numbers game. And we know just by the numbers that you're not going to have chemistry with 19 out of 20 people, it's just how it works. So why not lower the stakes, lower the expectations, and go on 30-minute coffee dates or Jamba Juice dates. That way, you're walking in with a different attitude. It's like, "I'm just going to meet a new human today, I'm going to learn one new thing from this individual. Odds are, we'll see, we'll see." And that changes everything. It changes the attitude, it changes the energy around it, and it allows you to go on more dates, because the deal is, you're not going to dip your toe in, and on the fifth person you meet, is the one. It's just not going to happen. Every once in a while, it happens. But in general, it won't. And I think people get really stuck on that. They get their hair done and their makeup done, and they go. They've put so much thought into the person they think they're meeting that inevitably, they're going to fall short of their expectations. So that's a really big one. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. No, that makes sense. It also sounds much more pleasurable. Amy Nobile: I would post up, I'm not even kidding. I would post up at a coffee shop of my choice and I would just space the dates out and give myself some cushion in between- Doryn Wallach: Write a book or something. Amy Nobile: I'm up with the next thing. No. And I would sit there in my Lululemons and a baseball hat. I mean, every once in a while, maybe jeans and a t-shirt, and I would set the expectation right up front, "Listen, I'm coming from a workout, I'm not glamorous." And it just changed everything and it put me in the driver's seat. It gave me my power back. So I wasn't hoping to be chosen. I wasn't hoping he would like me. I was sitting there like, "Hey, what's going on?" Doryn Wallach: Do you do that so that on the next date you just look amazing? Amy Nobile: Hello. Yes. It's strategic. Doryn Wallach: I was just what to say this is all strategic. Amy Nobile: Oh, completely. That would happen. That would really happen where then I'd have a little black sun dress on and they're like, "Whoa." Exactly. Exactly. Doryn Wallach: Right. If it came to that date based on the first one. Then they were meant to be. If they don't love you in your workout clothes- Amy Nobile: Completely. I'm not saying ditch the mascara and gloss. I mean, you can look cute and workout clothes. I'm just saying, don't go overboard and show up like, "Now, I'm here." They have to show up for you. Doryn Wallach: So you go on that first date now, what are the rules today? You like the guy, are we in an age and a time where there's no games? I remember reading when I was in my 20s, remember that book? Amy Nobile: The Rules. Doryn Wallach: The Rules. And then men are from Mars, Women are from Venus. Amy Nobile: Yeah. John Gray. Doryn Wallach: Both of those books. Amy Nobile: I'm currently writing the next version of The Rules. Doryn Wallach: Oh, good. Amy Nobile: Yeah. Here's the deal, there are no games. I do believe in chivalry and I don't care what anybody says about that, I really don't care. I know that we are in an age of equality and oh, I'm a feminist. I get it, I'm all about... My whole career has been about empowering women, I get it, but I like chivalry. I just do. And so if you're texting, texting with someone for a day or two days and it's going on and on, and they're not asking you out, they're not a grownup, they're not ready, just delete them. Every once in a while, it's maybe you give a little nudge like, "All right, let's grab coffee, this is going on and on." But nine times out of 10, he's not ready. And when you're going on that date, I think it's great to reach for your purse, I like chivalry, I like it when the guy pays, I really don't care what anyone thinks about that? But in terms of games, you remember The Rules, it was like, wait three days to respond. It's no, no, no, we're not doing that. Two grownups showing up for each other, the key is consistency. Doryn Wallach: I think that book kind of ruined dating actually. Amy Nobile: That book pisses me off, I'm sorry. Doryn Wallach: People really followed it for years, and then everyone was confused about what to do and not to do, and even if you wanted to do it or not do it. Amy Nobile: Right. And then he's just not that into you came out. Doryn Wallach: All right, I forgot about that one. Amy Nobile: That was an assault on women, like, "He's just not that into you." And it's like "Oh my God, put us back in the driver's seat." I think behave the way you want reflected back to you, two grownups showing up for each other who are consistent with each other every single day. Every single day, there's no disappearing act, there's no chase the cat and mouse, there's no like "Oh, I'm just not going to respond." No, it's very genuine. That's what we're looking for here, is a genuine, authentic connection that's real, that guess what? It's going to be messy, we're going to share with each other. You want someone who's a little self-actualized, or at least open to it. If you're spiritual, you want someone who's on that path too. These are the kinds of conversations you want to be having. And I coach my clients all the time on how to get there fast because you know what, I see so many people talking about travel and the weather, and just surface stuff for four days, five days. No, no, no, by your second or third date, you really should be talking about this stuff at this age. And so that's what it's about. It just blows my mind that people waste a lot of time playing a little coy game of trying to be who they think they should be. Doryn Wallach: And there's no time for that now. In your 20s, there was time, there's no time for that. That can be used in so many different parts of our lives. Amy Nobile: Great. And also just ask for what you want. It's just amazing, really ask for what you want, have those conversations pretty quickly. Don't wait three months in and it's like he doesn't want to get married again. You should have had that conversation, or what about monogamy? There's so many couples that just assume, they just keep going, and then all of a sudden, someone finds their significant others assemble profiles, still there. We need to be having these really real conversations pretty early on. Doryn Wallach: It's so funny because on my first date with Tai, Tai is my husband in case, hopes it's clear. Amy Nobile: Hopefully, I really hope so at this point. Doryn Wallach: He grew up in a town that I knew I never wanted to live in, among other things. When I went on a first day, I was very upfront, I was like, "Just so you know, I'm never living in that town." I was going down the list, and to this day, he's like, "It was our first date, you're really letting me know." I'm like, "You know what, if you don't like me from the first date, then you're probably not going to like me in a few years. If you don't like who I am, I just need that." I'm like that with any relationship, I am who I am, and if you don't like me, then we're not going to be friends. And that's okay with me. Amy Nobile: Totally. And that's a beautiful, but very unique trait, Doreen, because so many people are so afraid to ask for what they want right away, and there are a lot of women we've been conditioned to be a chameleon, and so we're taking on the traits of the guy. And it's like no, especially at this age. So I do a lot of coaching around that. When you're just entering a new relationship, I have a lot of clients who keep me on just for the coaching part so that they can stay authentic to who they are as you build foundation of this new relationship, it's really important. Doryn Wallach: Is it hard though? I would imagine obviously the pool is smaller and it's not as easy, but do you feel that you have to adapt a little bit more? There are people who are very set in their ways, so I would think that in general, in life, at this point of our lives, we have to just be more open-minded and more adaptable to situations. I think that's something I've learned about myself. Amy Nobile: Totally. Doryn Wallach: I would imagine that's important in dating too, where you can't just go in there with, "This is what I want, this is not about... " And you have to at least allow yourself to be surprised. There might be something that comes up. Amy Nobile: No, completely. I think that's an excellent point, especially for this audience, 40 plus, you need to know and identify how open someone is to evolution. And I think some sometimes it's we really know these are the core values and as long as I have these, I'm good. And sure, there are a lot of people and let's face it, a lot of men at this age who, look at their role models, Beaver Cleveland. There's a lot of men in this pool who don't really know how to change, or they're not open to therapy, or they're not open to evolution. And most of my clients want someone who can evolve a little bit. And so that's really, really important, and there's all kinds of indicators at the very beginning whether or not someone's open to evolve. Sometimes my client knows exactly, once we identify the core values of who we're looking for, and we didn't really talk about that, but that's one of the big things we have to do, it's not your type, it's more like what we're going to look at from the inside out. Sometimes it's okay, it's fine if that person's not open to change as long as they have these family core values, I'm good with that, but more often than not, that's another overlooked conversation. How much have you worked on yourself? How much are you open to evolution? I'm a meditator, does that freak you out? Or are you curious about that? At least curious. So it's having those kinds of conversations. Doryn Wallach: Right. I think it has to be in both directions, it's important. Amy Nobile: Totally. Doryn Wallach: My last question in all of this, and I feel there will be a lot of follow-up questions, I'm sure from listeners, but what was the biggest mistake that you made when you were dating, number one that you learned from? Amy Nobile: The biggest overall mistake which has really woven its way into the core of my business is, I didn't look closely enough at the core values first and I was just looking at who I was attracted to. We all have a type, we all think we have a type, we get so conditioned, you don't even realize how conditioned you are to visually what you're attracted to. And once I went to therapy, I did a bunch of things, and once I realized "Oh my gosh, okay, I'm looking at this the wrong way. I need to look at core values and attributes first." And that's when I started to cast my net differently and I was dating, it wasn't about height, and it wasn't about hair. I had of course, my non-negotiables like teeth, I just have a teeth thing, but you're allowed to have those. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. I get that. Amy Nobile: But I do this exercise of clients where I give them this blank piece of paper and I'm like "Okay, I want you to fill 20 minutes, I want you to fill this up with every attribute of your ideal dream person. Take your time." And they fill it out and take and then they give it to me before COVID, whatever. And I rip it up into tiny little pieces, and they're like, "What? That's a lot of work." And then I'd give them another piece of paper and I say, "Think of someone non-romantic in your life who brings you total joy. It can be a nephew, it can be your mother, and write their core qualities down. And that's your person, that's your person, and it's your person every time." And that is a really eye-opening exercise to do because it really forces you to get out of the stereotypes you have built and really focus on those core qualities. I'll be swiping for a client, and they're like, "Why did you swipe on this client?" And I'm like, "Look at what they wrote." And so many of those words match yours. The last three clients that found love said, all three of them, I never would've swiped on that person. So I think it's really, really important to keep that in mind. Doryn Wallach: I totally get that because I have a few best friends that I could totally run away with. Amy Nobile: Oh, my girlfriends and I joke all the time, we're just like, "Oh my God." We'd literally live in a commune, they'll all be dead, the guys will be dead and we'll just play Mahjong and drank, seriously. Doryn Wallach: Oh my God, one of my best friends, we always talk about one day when we run away and travel, when we're old and we live our lives together. I don't know if that's okay, but we do. Amy Nobile: It's fine. In fact, that's really what we're facing, let's be honest. Doryn Wallach: Seriously, I had a girlfriend say to me the other day, TMI, but she was like, "I just wish you had different anatomy." And I'm like, "I know, I'm sorry." I'm like, "I'm so sorry." I'm like, "It would be perfect." She's like, "Oh, I don't know." Amy Nobile: That's so funny. That's so something I'd say. That's really funny. Doryn Wallach: All right. Amy, this is amazing, I'm so excited. This was actually a really fun topic even if I know nothing about it, I love talking about this- Amy Nobile: I think you know more than you think you know. Doryn Wallach: I know. Maybe I'll intern for you. Amy Nobile: Oh my God, totally. You can banter, you can ghost, you can do all this things. Doryn Wallach: I need to have you back on to talk about, we need kind of what you do for figuring out your career and what you want to do. Amy Nobile: I think it would be cool to have a few female, I think that's just a really cool discussion to have, like what ideas, an idea or not, or how do you... Doryn Wallach: But again, you have to do the work before you even figure that out, which is a whole, again, a whole other podcast. Tell my listeners where they can find you. Amy Nobile: Yeah. Thank you so much. My website is Loveamy.co. I know, I'm confusing, so Loveamy.co. And if you'd be so kind, I really need Instagram followers, and it's Love.amy.nyc, because that would be super helpful. Doryn Wallach: Also, go to Amazon and look at any of Amy's books because they will help you with different chapters on your life. And it was when I meant you that I learnt after that you were the author of the book I had read, and I was so happy to meet you. When I was reading that book, I I'm like, "I want to know who wrote this because I feel like we would be really good friends." Amy Nobile: And here we are. Doryn Wallach: And here we are. All right. Well, thank you again for coming on the show. Amy Nobile: Thank you. Doryn Wallach: And I hope you're safe and well, I saw that you're with your babies, so I'm happy. Amy Nobile: Thank you so much, Doreen, this was a total blast, I'm honored to be on the show again. Doryn Wallach: Oh, no problem. I love having you, and we'll have you back again, I'm sure there will be another topic that we'll cover. Amy Nobile: Okay. Perfect. Doryn Wallach: Okay. Take care. Amy Nobile: Okay. Thanks. Bye.

EPISODE 5 In this episode your host Doryn Wallach is joined by Atlanta-based therapist and speaker, and Founder/Director of Cultivate, Mazi Robinson. Cultivate is an organization which helps women cultivate joy, courage, and freedom in their lives. Her work focuses on helping women discover their true voice as they navigate self worth/self esteem challenges, relationship concerns, and life stage transitions. Join them as they talk about the midlife transition, identity, self-worth, purpose and other aspects that are important topics to women in all walks of life. EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Doryn Wallach: Welcome to another episode of It's Not A Crisis, a podcast for women in their 40s seeking to navigate midlife's challenges while making the most of it. I am your host, Doryn Wallach, and I want to thank you very, very much for listening, it really, truly means a lot to me that people are listening to this and being helped by my podcast. That's incredibly rewarding and feels like I'm giving back and doing something great. So, selfishly, thank you. Today we are getting real about this time in our lives and learning how to do the work now so that we don't live as bitter old women that have given every piece of ourselves with nothing left to give. Not sure if you guys feel that way, but there are many days where I just feel done with everything and just want to run away. So, I don't want to feel that way anymore, I want to be able to learn how to take care of myself, take care of my family and not be that person. Before I get to today's guest I just want to please remind you to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen, as well as rate, comment and please also pass it along to your friends. Because, the more women that know about the show, the more women we can all inspire and help, and that makes me very happy and I'm sure it would make you happy to help some friends. So, please do that, I would really appreciate it. And also, if you can follow me at It's Not A Crisis Podcast, on both Insta and Facebook. We also have a private group on Facebook. And, while my website still needs a ton of work, I actually just asked somebody to help me with that, you can sign up on my mailing list on the site right now, so itsnotacrisis.com. Please don't judge the position that it's in at the moment. So, today's guest, Mazi Robinson, got in touch with me. And most of the time I seek out my guests, and they're women that I know and have worked with, or I may have read a book and I'm trying to get in touch with the author. Things that really have inspired me and things that I want to learn from. But, Mazi's email really captured me, and I wanted to reach out and speak with her first. And in the short time that we spoke, I was literally smiling ear to ear the entire time and then shaking my head going, "Yes, yes, yes." So, I really think you're going to find this episode inspiring and uplifting, and hopefully change the path you're currently on to live a more fulfilled life. Mazi Robinson is a licensed professional counselor and speaker specializing in helping women discover their true voice as they navigate self-worth, self-esteem challenges, relationship concerns and life stage transitions. In addition to her work as a therapist, Mazi maintains an active speaking schedule, presenting workshops on topics such as anxiety, healing, healthy relationships, personal growth and purposeful living. She's also a Certified Daring Way Facilitator, presenting workshops and retreats based on the research and methodology of Dr. Brené Brown, to individuals and groups. Mazi is the Founder and Director of Cultivate, through its counseling center and bimonthly gatherings, Cultivate encourages women to cultivate joy, courage and freedom in their lives as they pursue emotional, mental and spiritual health. Mazi, welcome to the show, I am so happy to have you here, and I think you're going to help so many women, so this is really exciting. Mazi Robinson: Oh wow, well thank you so much for having me. I am thrilled to be here, so thank you, thank you. Doryn Wallach: You're welcome. As you know, and my listeners know, I started this podcast because I felt like this has been the one time in my life where there are so many transitions and yet so little support for women our age, in our 40s. And somehow, we're all silent about the many things our bodies and minds are going through right now. So, I'd love to start by talking about why this midlife transition is so significant for women. And by the way, when I say midlife, I don't really feel like I fit in there, but I do. Mazi Robinson: Right. Doryn Wallach: Who are we talking about here? Not me, I'm not midlife. But I am. Mazi Robinson: I think the midlife transition for women is incredibly significant. And you're right, it's a little bit of an awkward thing to say, "I'm in midlife transition." Because I think when we think of midlife, we still think of that old image of midlife, a woman who's more gray than she isn't gray, and maybe starting to slow down a little bit in life and those sorts of things. And that is not a woman in their 40s in 2020. So, to think of ourselves in midlife, it doesn't quite fit with this image of an aging woman. Because, I know for myself, I don't feel like I'm aging, but I have to say, I love being in my 40s because I am a grown-ass woman now. Doryn Wallach: It isn't great? My mom always told me I'd love my 40s, and I didn't get what she meant. And I'm turning 43 in a few weeks and I didn't... I turned 40 and I expected this big surprise that everything was going to change, which is so ridiculous. But, as with every year that goes on, I see this new sense of confidence and not caring as much about what people think anymore. And the more I get to that place in my life, the more I want to start working on myself, which is why you're here, because I think that what you said to me on the phone before we talked was just so amazing. Mazi Robinson: Yes. And so, that gets into why the midlife transition is so important and significant, and really a beautiful thing. The way that I conceptualize midlife transition, is it's really a death and a rebirth. These couple of decades here, starting in our 40s and moving through our 50s, and even into our early 60s, it is a time of life, it's a season of life where we have the opportunity to become more introspective. We have the opportunity to look back at the first half of our life and go, "Okay, what worked? What didn't work? What was a coping mechanism that helped me then, but maybe isn't serving me well now? What was a way that I interacted with people in my relationships that I thought was good then, but is no longer beneficial for me now?" So, it's an opportunity to look at what we need to let go of, really what we need to allow to die, so that we can be reborn. So that this true, authentic self can be born, can be reborn. Because, I think what happens... if we want to go all the way back. What happens in adolescence, what happens in our 20s and even in our 30s, is that we are absorbing a lot of messages. Particularly for women, we're absorbing messages about how to be easy going, low maintenance, go with the flow. Those are the qualities that are often held up as likable. And in the first part of life, we are bombarded with messages that as women, we want to be likable. To be unlikeable is kind of death in of itself. That's the whole conundrum of middle school. And so, we began to engage all of these behaviors to make ourselves likable, we become people pleasers, we don't always have good boundaries, we say yes when we don't really want to say no. We begin to read the room, every room we walk into, "How do I need to calibrate myself so that I can be as funny as these people expect me to be? So I can be as serious as these people expect me to be? So I can be as strong as these people expect me to be? How I can be as quiet as these people expect me to be?" And so, there's just a lot of role playing that we can find ourselves in in the first half of life. And sometimes, let's be honest, that serves us well. And then, more often than not, it eventually causes us pain. And so, then we get into our 40s and we have this realization that, "Oh wow, I'm a grown-ass woman. I don't have to ask for permission anymore. I'm a full fledged adult, nobody can pat me on the head anymore and call me sweetheart." And we realize, "Wow, I have the opportunity to figure out who I am. Which means, I am going to have to go through what can be a painful process of figuring out who I've been trying to be. And that painful process of why do I people please? Why do I try to over-accommodate? Why do I avoid conflict at all costs? Why do I stuff my feelings? And what exactly am I stuffing? And the way that I numb my feelings, is that now hurting me?" And so that then we can begin to unpack all of that, let go of that and step into and discover who we really are, and who we want to be in this second half of life. Doryn Wallach: And I don't think that that's actually possible to almost do before this part of our lives. I think that you really have to be gifted with the age of your 40s and beyond to really feel like you want to do that work. And I think that, probably for some people it happens automatically, and some people need a nudge to remind them that, "Now is your time to look forward and start living in a different way." Mazi Robinson: Yes. I would completely agree, because if you think about it, in our 20s and 30s, we are going through rapid life transitions. And so it's really like, "I got to keep up." In our early 20s we graduate from college, we move, we maybe move a couple of times to different cities. Within the city, for a lot of people, they'll get married in their 20s or at some point in their 30s. For a lot of people they'll have children, maybe they'll move again, maybe they'll change job, maybe they'll even begin to shift into a different career. And so, it's a lot of change for about 20 years, and then you get into your 40s and things begin to slow down. It's not that life becomes slow, but the rapid-fire change begins to slow down, and so you do have the opportunity to look at yourself, to look in the mirror a little bit. But also, I think in our 40s and in our 50s, the changes that we experience are significant in a different way than marriage and family in our 20s and 30s. Because, when we move into our 40s and 50s, for a lot of women... and unfortunately I don't have a stat on this, but for a lot of women, they get divorced in that timeframe, the midlife divorce, the empty nest divorce is very common for a lot of women. That is when they're going to enter into empty nest-hood, and so that is a huge life transition for women who have children because moving into empty nest-hood, even if it's something that you have been marking off the days on your calendar until your kids move out of the house, the reality is, that is forced retirement. And, whether you're ready to give up the role of full-time mom or not, you're done as full-time mom, so that's a huge transition that... maybe there is a lot of excitement and anticipation of, "What is my life going to look like now? What is my marriage going to look like now in empty nest-hood?" But, there's also the grief and loss of, "This role and full-time responsibility is no longer here." And then also, as we move into our 40s and 50s, we become part of what known as the sandwich generation, as our parents age and pass, and that's a huge life transition, an experience of losing a parent and walking a parent through illness and as they age. And so, the life transitions that we experience and we potentially experience in our 40s and 50s are just different than the life transitions we experience, those rapid-fire changes from our earlier years. And they're the type of existential life transitions where you stop and you ask, "Whoa okay, who am I now?" And that doesn't quite happen in our 20s and 30s. Doryn Wallach: Right, that's so true. And I also feel like we... I think as women, we're obviously not all mothers of kids that are leaving the house, there are women who may have never had kids or there are women in their 40s who are just having kids. But, I think regardless of even that, I think that we're all dealing with similar things as far as our parents and taking care of our parents all of a sudden. And it's the same time trying to figure out who we are. And I also want to mention, just to piggyback on what you just said, I feel like my daughter, who's almost 13, is starting to need me less. And, while I was a working mom, for many years I was not, I was a stay at home mom, and have found that when I was the busiest at work, she probably needed me more, and now that she's needing me less I'm thinking about slowing down [inaudible 00:13:52]. There's so many different changes going on at once that your head could explode. What are the top things that you've seen women struggling with at our age? And then I'd love to talk about how we transition in a positive way, and what that looks like? Mazi Robinson: I think that's a great question. So, what I have observed in working with my clients, in terms of the top things that we struggle with, I think it is relationships and who we are in those relationships, how we are interacting in those relationships. And then I would also say identity and self-worth. And then if I could add a third one, I would add purpose in there, which I think is very closely tied to identity and self-worth. And so, those are the three most common things that I see women in midlife struggle with, "Who am I in these relationships? I have these relationships." At this point, in our 40s and 50s, a lot of the relationships in our lives, we have been in that relationship for a long time. And so, maybe there're some cracks in the relationship, maybe there're some bruises in the relationship, a little bit of broken trust, maybe the relationship is just not as alive as it used to be. And so, "Wow, does that mean I stay in the relationship for the next 40 years of my life? That doesn't sound terribly exciting, but I don't want to leave the relationship." And so, a lot of questions about, "Who am I in connection with these people that are important to me?" And then, the whole topic and concept of self-worth and identity, because for a lot of us just as humans we do this, we attach our self-worth to external things in our life. Maybe it's a career, maybe it's a salary, maybe it's where we live, maybe it's having children, or how many children we have or what our children are doing, maybe it's our relationship status. And by the time we get into our 40s and 50s, what we have realized is, "Oh, these external things that I've been trying to hang my identity and self-worth on, those aren't very stable. And they fall down, and when they fall down so does my self-worth and my identity." And so, it's this realization of, "Oh wow, perhaps I need to detach my self-worth from these external things." And so, then that begins the journey of really digesting this truth that, "My self-worth is unchanging, unshakeable. Whether I am married, whether I am divorced, whether I have a good relationship with my teenager, whether I have a bad relationship with my teenager, whether I've been at the same company since I was 23, or whether I've changed job 15 times in 20 years, none of that impacts my worth. My worth is unchanging, it is unshakeable." And, when we begin to digest that truth, that really frees us from a lot of the things that throughout our life have tried to imprison us. It frees us from the fear of criticism, from the fear of rejection, from the fear of judgment, from the fear of messing up, from the fear of not being good enough. And when we begin to free ourselves from those fears, then we can step into this freedom of discovering, "Who I really am and what I want my purpose to be in this second half of life." And, just in general, we find more freedom in life as we begin to really honestly look in the mirror and go, "Okay, what have I been attaching my self-worth, my identity to?" I think the other thing I would add in there for women who are thinking, "Okay, yeah, I'm wanting to make some changes. I'm feeling some angst, some tension in my life, but where do I start?" I would look at the pain points. Where in your life are you experiencing the most distress? Is it in your relationship? Is it in some friendship? Is it in your dating relationships? Is it in your marriage? Is it in your relationship with your aging parents? Is it in your career? Pay attention to the pain in your life. Because again, in your 20s and 30s, it's really easy to mask pain because in your 20s you can go out a lot. And, in your 30s, if you're raising kids you can just totally focus on those kids and ignore your pain. But, in your 40s, as we've talked about, because time changes and our relationship with time can change, that pain becomes louder. And so, rather than trying to numb, or ignore or avoid the pain, I think this is the time in our life where we turn to it and we go, "Okay, I hate my job. Maybe I shouldn't hate my job as much as I hate my job. Let me pay attention to this pain, and let me listen to what this pain is trying to tell me." It's at that entry point that we begin to realize, "Okay, this is the transition I need to begin to step into. This is the baggage that I need to begin to unpack." Doryn Wallach: And how do you decipher between... the reason I named my podcast what it is, is I really dislike midlife crisis. I know for myself, and I talk to my girlfriends all the time, I feel like whenever in a moment where we're like, "You know what? I just want to start doing something for myself. Or I really want to start working. I want to stop working. I'm reevaluating my relationship or a friend. I'm at an age where I'm not going to keep friends that aren't good friends anymore." I find my girlfriends stopping themselves in these moments and being like, "Oh, I must just be going through a midlife crisis." And I think there's something... I'd love to hear your opinion on that because I... yes, there's the cliché midlife crisis that everybody talks about, but at the same time I think there's so much more to that, whether you're a man or a woman. And I think we need to be okay with saying we're going through this transition without calling it a crisis. I think the world needs to change the way we look at this. Mazi Robinson: Yeah, I agree. I think midlife crisis is a very negative term. I think it indicates that something is wrong, that something bad has happened. And I agree with you, I think it's misleading and it's not helpful for us. And I much prefer the phrase of midlife transition. Or, if you want to get really deep and therapy-ish, I like the term midlife rebirth. Doryn Wallach: Oh, I love that. I should have called my podcast that. Where were you when I was naming it? Mazi Robinson: Because, I do see it as an opportunity for rebirth. It's an opportunity to let go of the things that are no longer serving us well. The habits, the patterns that are no longer serving us well, so that we can step into this true self, so that we can step into a healthier self, a more whole self, because it's not a crisis. However, it can feel scary when you realize, "Oh my goodness, I'm a people pleaser, and I don't even know what I like. Because, for 40 years of my life, whenever someone asks me what do I want on my pizza, I always say, "Whatever you're getting is fine." And so I don't know what I want on my pizza."" And so, that is a very frightening realization, "Oh my goodness, I am 40 years old and I don't know what I like on my pizza." And that can feel like a crisis to us, but again, I think if we see it as an opportunity, an opportunity to learn what we like and what we dislike, an opportunity to learn how to be assertive, an opportunity to learn how to share what we're thinking an feeling, an opportunity to free ourselves from the lies that we have been believing throughout our life. And, one of the things that I have observed, and this is what I like to call Mazi Theory, there's not concrete research to back up this theory, this is just my observation in my client work and just observing people around me. But, I think how we as women, how we navigate midlife transition, I think it really influences how we end up living in the final years of our lives. So, what I mean by that is, if you look at older women, and by older I mean women in their late 70s, 80s. If you look at women in that age demographic, what I have observed... and this is a huge generalization that I'm sure somebody we'll be like, "Well that's not fair to categorize." But, this is my observation, is that you often find women in one of two categories. You find some women who are very much at peace, they know what bring themselves joy, they know how to take care of themselves, they engage in activities that bring joy and comfort, they have a lot of contentment. They are enjoying life. And then, I think you can have women on the other end of the spectrum that are the stereotypical cranky, bitter, old woman. Who gets annoyed by everything, has a lot of judgment and is very critical. And I think that how we move through midlife transition determines which of those women we end up becoming. And if we go through this period in midlife transition of death and rebirth, letting go of the old weights that are no longer serving us, and doing the hard work of rebirth and figuring out who we are, figuring out how to engage in relationships in a healthy way, then we can become that older woman who is peaceful, and content and filled with joy. But, when we resist the transition of death and rebirth and we continue to people please, we continue to over-accommodate, we continue to stuff our feelings, we continue to ignore unhealthy patterns in relationships, then we are going to end up 84 years old and really bitter and really resentful. And, we're going to have this undercurrent of belief of, "Well, I've stuffed my feelings for years, you need to suck it up too." Or, "I did this, and so you need to do it to." And it creates that judgment, and that bitterness and that resentment. And so, it is very important how we move through this season of life, because it will bear fruit in our final years, and we want to bear good fruit in those final years. Doryn Wallach: Absolutely. So, personally I've found until recently, and I'm completely open about this because everybody's in therapy, I have been on and off in therapy most of my 20s and 30s, and I don't think I was with the right therapist. And, somebody said to me... it was somebody who referred me this therapist, she said, "You need somebody who's going to call you out on your shit, but do it in a constructive way." Mazi Robinson: Yes. Doryn Wallach: And I realized that for every therapist that I've ever been with, I haven't been able to be 100% upfront with my fears, or anxieties or who I am, out of fear of being called out. And so, when I heard those words I was like, "Okay, you're at an age, just do it." Because, at that stage of life you really want to be called out so that you can work on it. So, I think for me, that first step was really important. And I also think once I was able to allow somebody to see that side of me, then I was able to dig into my childhood, my upbringing, my 20s, my 30s, talk about why I became the way I did. This is a life long work in progress, I think when I was younger I expected you'd go to therapy, the problem's resolved, you move on. That's not the way it works. Every decade you should look back and go, "Ugh god, what did I do that decade? Okay, I'm going to learn from that and move on to this next decade." My mother always tells me that, and she's right. What would be your first piece of advice for a woman in a position right now who's like, "Okay, it's time. I really do want the future to be much more brighter, and I want to be happy. Where do I even begin?" Because I think it's very overwhelming with social media today and everything else. It's overwhelming to find a therapist that you gel with. Who has time to interview therapists? So, I'd love to hear your point of view on that. Mazi Robinson: Yes. I do think entering therapy and midlife is one of the best gifts you can give to yourself. And, having a therapist who one, understands midlife and understands midlife transition for a woman I think is very important. But, having a therapist who is going to lovingly hold up that mirror and say, "Well, really? Let's look at this, let's take a good long, hard look in the mirror." And then, walk with you as a companion as you gain that insight and put that insight into practice. Because, with midlife, there is a lot of grief and loss because the changes that we experience, they have loss as an undercurrent in general. And so, it is helpful to have someone walk alongside you that can be that companion, that can point things out and go, "Okay, yep, yep, that happened. Now, what do you think you are feeling right here? When you said that, when you came back in that manner when y'all were having that discussion, what got triggered for you right there?" And, just having someone help you gain that self awareness so that you are aware of, "Oh, yes that made me angry. Oh, in that moment I was anxious." And, so that we can start responding rather than reacting, and that's a whole big part of living as our true self as well. But I think, having a good therapist is a wonderful gift to yourself. I think beginning to read books on midlife transition is another wonderful gift of just learning about what are all the things we're feeling and we're going through, both in our bodies and in our minds in midlife transition. Reading memoirs of other people who have gone through midlife transition. And really just having that posture of opening yourself up, of, "Okay, the first part of adulthood was laying the foundations for my life, and this season in adulthood is going to be about learning. And an open hand posture of learning an receiving so that I can build the next level." But yes, I'm a big fan of therapy for midlife. Doryn Wallach: It's exciting, in a way. Mazi Robinson: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Doryn Wallach: I think I went from, "Oh god, I'm turning 40." To, "Oh, this is great." And I think that... listen, there are moments where I'm like, "Oh my god, my kids are going to go to college, what am I going to do?" And I have my own thing going on, the kids aren't my only thing in my life. They're obviously the biggest part of my life in everyway, my whole family, my husband too. But, I think that if we can really take a step back and say, "Okay, we deserve this part of our lives to be more positive and to be fulfilled." I think the biggest challenge is what does that mean? And how long is it going to take us to get to figure out what that means? Mazi Robinson: Yeah. And one other thing that I would add, in addition to therapy, in addition to learning and listening, I think giving yourself permission to try things. We aren't always that great at trying new things in our 20s and 30s because we're often very focused on getting to those mile markers of first job, first house, getting married, kids, moving, we want to get to those mile markers. And we want to do it well, perfectionism can really creep in in that season of life. And so, in this season of life, giving yourself permission to try things. And you don't have to be good at it, perfectionism isn't the goal, turning it into a business isn't a goal, but take a class, take an art class, take a photography class. To let yourself just try new things, and almost like you're lifting the lids on boxes like, "What are all the boxes within myself that I've just never lifted the lid to see what's in there." Because, giving yourself permission to try something is a wonderful step in courage and vulnerability. And that's a lot of what we want to cultivate in midlife, is we want to have the courage to be vulnerable. And vulnerability in the sense of, "I'm going to say no." That can feel like a very vulnerable thing, to say, "No" to a loved one. "I'm going to share with a loved one how I feel." That's a very vulnerable thing [crosstalk 00:32:08] Doryn Wallach: Boundaries I think is [crosstalk 00:32:10]. Mazi Robinson: Boundaries, yes. Doryn Wallach: A very hard thing to start doing, and a very empowering thing when you do it. Mazi Robinson: Yes, absolutely. Because, it feels very scary, "How's this person going to react? Are they going to get mad? Are they going to reject me? Are they going to stomp off?" But yes, giving ourselves the permission to try boundaries. So, that try element and trying new things I think is also an important part of self-care and moving through this transition. Doryn Wallach: This is so true. And I brought this up on my first podcast when I was [inaudible 00:32:49] what the podcast was going to be about. But, my therapist is also an art therapist, and by background I'm very creative. But, I had a very critical art school experience, and it always made me feel like I was terrible at fine art, and I had to decipher the difference between art and design, and I could design but I couldn't do art. She really encouraged me to start watercolor classes and I looked at her like, "No way. First of all, I'm not good at it. Second of all, it's messy and unpredictable. I just don't like it." I can remember as a kid not liking the water getting into my little pots and mixing up the colors, I was such a perfectionist even then. So, I took a six week class. Before I took the class I watched hours of YouTube videos on watercolor before I even attempted to buy a brush, because I wanted to make sure I knew what I was doing. I'm not saying this is for everybody, but for me, this has been such a test for me because I can't... it's very hard for me to both look at something and paint it, or just come up with something in my own head. But, it's taught so much about myself and getting over this perfectionism and just doing something that would be relaxing if I could let go of those things. And so, it's been a really interesting experiment. Even in this pandemic, I haven't picked up a paint brush, it all almost makes me more anxious because I'm like, "What do I do? How do I do it? Am I doing it right?" But, I could see how when you start to get into it and you gain that confidence, how it could be something really relaxing. So, trying something new is important. No matter what it is, if it's art, if it's jumping out of a plane, whatever it is it's going to teach you about yourself. Mazi Robinson: Yes, absolutely. And, it's going to teach you, "I can." And that two word phrase is so powerful. "I can. I can do this. I can try new things. I can survive making a mistake. I can survive failing at something. I can." And, that is such an empowering thought that is so important for us to really internalize. But yeah, I love that, I love that you started taking watercolor classes. Something like that. Or starting yoga, maybe you've always wanted to do yoga and starting yoga. Or maybe you've always thought, "Wouldn't it be fun to run a marathon?" So, start running. Or maybe you always wanted to try a Zumba class but you were afraid, you felt insecure, just try one Zumba class. Just try. Doryn Wallach: Mm-hmm (affirmative). And even in... this sounds so ridiculous, but I think even in your clothes. Women come into their own style in their 40s. By the way, I can't tell you how much of my life I've preached how awful Birkenstock's are, and I'd never wear them, and they're disgusting and you'll never... never say never, because now I have three pairs. And I claim to my husband, I'm like, "I actually think there's kind of a hippie in me that I didn't realize." It's not even just the shoes, it's the mentality, and the living and everything. There's a lot of different ways to try new things once you have confidence and you don't care what people think of you. And the other thing she told me, by the way, was, "Don't put your art on Instagram. If it's good or it's bad, just don't. This is for you, this is for nobody but you. You don't need to have validation, you don't need to feel..." and I haven't done that. I don't even show my kids because they can be a little critical. So, if you're going to try something new I would say you don't need to tell anyone, just go do it and keep it to yourself and see how you feel about it. Because, I think once you're influenced by your peers, it changes the dynamic of what you're doing. Mazi Robinson: Yes, I think there's so much truth to that. You almost want to look at it as, "I'm going to protect this. I'm going to protect this watercolor class, this Zumba class, my new yoga practice. I'm going to protect it from the world because the world wants to grade it, the world wants to valuate it, the world wants to judge it, the world wants to tell me how it could be better. And I want to protect it from all of that because I just want to find joy in it. And the world wants to try to tell me that joy is found in [inaudible 00:37:12], and that's one of those lies that we can buy into big time." And so, I love that. Just go and take the class, you don't have to tell anybody you're doing it. And then, maybe someday, if you want to take that step of courage and put it on Instagram as a way of practicing vulnerability do that. But at that point, you're doing it as a step in vulnerability, not a step looking for approval. So, I love the idea of doing some of this stuff for you, giving yourself permission to discover the joy in doing it for you. Not for approval, not for validation, not to be better than somebody else, but for you and for your soul. Doryn Wallach: Going back to relationships, what piece of advice... and I know, Mazi, this is what you meant, relationships don't... and you had said this, relationships don't just mean the relationship with your spouse or partner, it's friendships, it's your parents, it's your siblings, it's everybody. And I know that I have made changes, there are friendships that I have closed, and there are friends that I'm there for more than others. And, there's work that I've done in my marriage, there's work I've done within my relationships with my parents and my siblings. So, how does one even begin to start to change those after... especially relationships that we've been in for most of our lives, how do you change that all of a sudden when you're expected to be one way and you're really feeling another? Mazi Robinson: Yes, when you're expected to be one way and you're realizing, "Oh, this box is feeling a little cramped for me. This role is feeling a little cramped for me." Well, I would start off by saying our relationships in this season of life our incredibly important, particularly with our friendships, I'll start there. Our friendships are so, so important. And I think with friendships, it's healthy to recognize we are going to experience some shifts in friendships, and that's more [inaudible 00:39:16] than good or bad. And, just recognizing that some people are going to move in and out of our circle. And, they're going to be some people in our lives that we've known for 20, 30 years and we love them to death, but they're not necessarily the person that we're going to call when we're really wrestling with something. And so, just recognizing who are friends are to us, "These friends, these are my inner circle. They know my history, they know my story, they know my struggles, they know my dreams." And to remember that, our inner circle is very, very small, like two, three maybe four people are in that inner circle. And then, we have that second circle of friends which shows our good friends, and more people are going to be in that circle. These are our friends that we socialize with, that we see frequently, that we have shared common interests, that we share some things with but maybe not the super vulnerable things. And then, we have that third outer circle of acquaintances. And these are people we see occasionally, maybe we've known forever but we don't see them that often. And just to recognize that those circles are not built with brick walls, people are going to flow in and out of that circle, and that is okay. And, we may recognize that for years we've been trying to put Sally in our circle, but maybe Sally just doesn't belong in the inner circle because Sally never follows through on anything, and we need a friend who's consistent and good on follow through. And so, maybe Sally moves into that good friend circle. And so, recognizing what are we looking for in our friendships and are our expectations of these friends realistic, given how this friend has historically interacted with us? And then, however we answer that, just recalibrating how we view that friend, that friendship. Then I think with our family relationship, that is just a whole giant bag. [crosstalk 00:41:23]. Doryn Wallach: Yeah, oh yes it is. Mazi Robinson: Because, man alive, there's a lot of history there. There's a lot of water under the bridge there. And, for better for worse, there are a lot of wounds there. And there are a lot of good memories too. And so, in this season of life, really working through some of the wounds that resurfaced, understanding that wound. I think this is always a big part of being an adult child, but it is the journey of seeing our parents as human, and taking them off of that pedestal that we maybe had them on as children, and recognizing they are human. Doryn Wallach: Yes. Mazi Robinson: This means they're flawed, which means they made mistakes. And so, how, as an adult child, who is in relationship with the parent, how do I see them as this flawed being and how do I accept them as they are, and we move forward in the relationship and we don't keep replaying the past, and getting stuck in the past? Kind of the idea of radical acceptance of our parents. And that doesn't mean that we accept harmful behavior, it doesn't mean that we accept abusive behavior, it doesn't mean that we are [inaudible 00:42:43]. It's actually the opposite, how do we have healthy boundaries with family members so that we can engage in a way that is kind and generous of spirit, but we are holding onto our true self, we are not feeling forced into being that role of people pleaser or being that role of the perfect child? But, we recognize who these loved ones are in our life, we practice that radical acceptance, and we move forward accordingly. The family of origin work in midlife is really, really significant because... and it can feel very scary for some people. Talk about crisis, that's where a lot of people can feel the crisis. Because, they recognize, "Oh, some stuff happened in the past and I don't want to go there. I don't want to take my parents off the pedestal. I don't want to unpack this suitcase. I don't want to clean out the scar tissue." But, we have to begin to do that to find the freedom, to find the healing so that we can move into a healthier relationship with our family members. Doryn Wallach: Oh my god, this is so right on, it's so right on. And, I think that everybody has to do this work. I truly believe it because until you can forgive and understand... I think before forgiveness, you have to really go to the root. I read this book, and it spoke so much to me about my parents and their generation, and their parents generation. So it was, how their parents parented them and then how they parented us. And the book... my mother's going to kill me because she's going to be like, "You weren't neglected." But it wasn't about being neglect... it was about being a neglected child, but I didn't read it for that reason per se, I read it for the understanding more of how I was parented and how my parents were parented. And, it allowed me to realize, "Yes, parents are human as I am human." And I make a lot of mistakes as a parent all the time, we all do, and in every role of relationship. But, it allowed me to understand where they came from, and I think I got that. Just looking at generations and what parenting was supposed to be like. And once you understand where they came from and how they parented you, you're able to understand even more about how you're going to parent your children or how you are parenting your children. But also, you're right, just to say, "Okay, they're human, and they did the best they could. And I forgive them for things in my 20s I was judgy about and maybe angry about." It was eye opening to me. And, this only happened in the past year. Not to say that you don't go back and forth, but I do think that everybody should be able to discover that in order to move forward. Mazi Robinson: Yes, exactly. Because, you're so correct, that our parents were raised very differently than we were. But, our parents also lived... when they were adults, they lived in a very different world than we are living in as adults. Because, we are living in a world that, from a mental health perspective, is all about vulnerability, and identifying your feelings, and getting to know yourself, and conscious parenting and all these things. And, that was not going on in the 60s, 70s and 80s when are parents were our age. And so, recognizing that, "I may want my father to sit down and have a conversation, and hear my feelings and hear where I'm coming from. And, he may be able to do that, and he may not be able to do that. And if he's not able to do that, it has nothing to do with me and his love for me, it has to do with the fact that no one ever taught him how to do it. And at 70, 80 years old, it really is hard to teach an old dog new tricks." And so, just understanding that. And, again, I'm not saying to excuse bad behavior, there are bad parents out there. [crosstalk 00:46:57] Doryn Wallach: Right, exactly. I also didn't mean to say that, because there are parents that do deserve to not [inaudible 00:47:02] relationship. Mazi Robinson: Right. But I think, that can be a real freeing moment of, "Oh, my father or my mother can't engage with me, can't give me what I want. Not because I'm less than, not because they don't love me, they simply don't know how. Because of their own past, because of their own upbringing." And that's why I think another big task of just all adulthood, is this whole idea of re-parenting ourselves. Giving ourselves what we recognize that maybe we did not receive as children. Back, last Fall, when we were still living and going outdoors. Doryn Wallach: Yeah, I forgot what that was like. Mazi Robinson: I know, I know. Back in the day I went to a training up in Boston with Terry Real, who is just a fabulous therapist, he's a researcher and an author and he has created this method of couple therapy called Relational Life Therapy, and it's fabulous. And, he said something that I thought was really profound, he said, "Up until you're 18 years old, what happens to you is not your fault. You're a minor, you're young, it's not your fault. But post-18, after 18, it is your responsibility to heal it." And I thought, "Wow, that really is true." Because, I think what a lot of people can get stuck in is they can get stuck in blaming their parents because they've been hurt, and that is understandable. But at some point, we do have to step into that process of healing ourself, of re-parenting ourselves. Because, that is where we then find freedom in our journey, and where we find peace and that radical acceptance of, "This is who this person is. And so, now knowing that, how am I going to engage with this person?" Doryn Wallach: And do it before it's too late, our parents are getting older. And so, when I started doing this work I had a lot of questions, and I needed to sit down and have a real adult conversation with both my mom and my dad, and say, "Hey, what was happening here? And what was it like for you growing up?" It made my love even stronger than it ever was for my parents because it's helped me to understand them on an adult level. And I think you need to do that now and don't start doing this work when they're gone, I think it's the time to do it. Mazi Robinson: Yes, I completely agree. Now is the time when you still have the opportunities to have these conversations, when you have the opportunity to try different ways of interacting, now is the time. Yeah, completely agree on that. Doryn Wallach: I could talk to you for hours. [inaudible 00:49:46] say this to everyone of my guests... by the way I could talk to anyone for hours if they're interesting and I get along with them. But, we could go on and on and on all of these topics. So, before you go, I ask all of my guests this, I'm changing the question a little bit. What would you tell your younger self today if you had the chance? I usually say your 30 something or 40 something, but just your younger self in general, what would you say to your younger self? Mazi Robinson: I think what I would say to my younger self is that there will be pain, and none of it will be wasted. And you will be blown away at how every ounce of pain, every chapter and page of your story will eventually be used, you just have to keep walking. Doryn Wallach: I love that, Mazi, that's so beautiful. It's true. I try to teach my kids that, I say, "Every mistake you make, and everything that hurts you learn from it and you grow. And it doesn't feel like it in the moment." But it's so true, and that's something when you're younger you just don't believe until you get a little older, so thank you for that. I think my last question for you would just be in conclusion, what would be your biggest... I know we talked about small ways to get started, if you could take one small piece of advice of starting this journey, what would you say to the listeners? Mazi Robinson: I would say, be curious. Just begin to engage in a posture of curiosity. Be curious about what you're feeling, ask yourself, "How am I feeling?" When you get mad at something, "Why did I get mad about that?" To be curious. Not to be judgemental, not to be critical of yourself. So, it's not, "What's wrong with me that I got so mad right then?" It's, "Huh, I really got mad right then, what's that about?" And so, a postured curiosity, to be emotionally curious, could be curious about what you're thinking, to be curious about, "Why do I keep interacting with this person in this same way, and I always walk away disappointed? What is that about? What am I looking for there that I think I'm going to get this time but I still don't get it?" Curious. Curious about other people in your life, I think that is just the posture that we want to enter into when we are beginning to engage in this midlife rebirth, "Let me be curious about myself. Let me be curious about what I like, what I dislike. Let me be curious about what it would be like to say, "No, I would rather not eat there tonight." Let me be curious." Because, out of curiosity we gain permission, we gain freedom, we eventually gain insight, and then with that insight we gain change in our life. So, I would just say begin to be curious about yourself. Doryn Wallach: Tell the listeners where they can find you. Mazi Robinson: You can find me on my website mazirobinson.com. You can also find me on my counseling practices website, which is cultivateatlanta.com. If you would like to follow me on social media, you can follow me on Instagram and Facebook, my handle is cultivateatlanta. I post every day, inspirational thoughts, educational thoughts, sometimes I try to be funny, sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn't. Doryn Wallach: Me too, it doesn't always work. Mazi Robinson: [crosstalk 00:53:23]. But yes, you can find me on Instagram and Facebook at cultivateatlanta. So, I'm all those places. Doryn Wallach: Thank you again, it was wonderful having you. I tend to find my guests, and you found me, and I think it was meant to be and I'm really happy that you came on the show today. As usual, if anybody has any questions for Mazi, you can either send them to be at itsnotacrisis@gmail or you can contact Mazi directly. Mazi Robinson: Yes, that sounds great. And thank you again for having me, this has been a treat. Doryn Wallach: You're welcome, take care. Mazi Robinson: You too, take care.

EPISODE 4 Amy Mccready is THE QUEEN. I cannot tell you how much she has helped me with my kids and I have read everything. I found Amy after hearing her on a podcast. My kids are 10 and almost 13 and after many years of reading and consulting, I got to a point of feeling that my kids know how much they're loved, if I read everything there is an opinion on everything and I just have to be the best Mom I can be and raise happy and confident kids...my way. I screw up daily, but I think my kids know how much I love them. I am human! Amy taught me about giving my kids independence which is necessary as they get older and necessary for me to be able to be a better Mom and not have every aspect of life fall on me. While I can still lose it, the simple advice and permission of calmly walking away has been huge. Permission to give them independence. Permission to give them choices. She's amazing...and if you don't agree with what she is saying, just try it, more than once. You will see, it works. Get access to her amazing course that you can refer back to at any time until the day you drop them off to college! EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Doryn Wallach: Hi, and welcome to Episode Three of It's Not a Crisis, a podcast for women in their 40s, seeking to navigate mid-life's challenges while making the most of it. I am your host, Doryn Wallach, and I'm very excited about today's guest and today's episode. I hope that all of you are doing well and hanging in there and not going out of your mind. I do think I've gotten, weirdly, used to this life that we're living right now. And, as things are opening up a little bit, it definitely feels so good. I feel a weight off my shoulder, and I'm sure all of you do, too. But, it's been very tough for the kids. So, now, figuring out what we can do with them for the summer, what feels safe to us, on top of dealing with what they're going through, and just typical tween and teen drama, in my case, which is why I'm bringing on today's guest, Amy McCready, who is amazing. And, I can't wait to tell you more about her. But first, I just want to mention to you that I do this podcast because I feel like it's my way of giving back to women in their 40s. I do this podcast also selfishly so that I can learn about what's coming up and really how to make the next chapter of my life more positive. So, with that being said, if you can please subscribe to the podcast anywhere you listen, please rate it, comment, please join our Facebook page, It's Not a Crisis podcast, and Instagram, It's Not a Crisis podcast, and interact and tell your friends. Because, if we can reach a certain amount of women, I can help more women. And, that is the goal of this podcast. And, I would appreciate it very much from all of you. So, not all of them, but most of my guests I've found because I have personally worked with them at one time or another. And, I'm super picky and I do a lot of research before I work with somebody. I heard Amy on another podcast and I immediately emailed her for help with my kids. I found myself constantly yelling and threatening and bribing and punishing or taking things away and they still weren't listening to me. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that I still don't have these issues with my kids because I do. But, Amy has taught me instrumental tools in my life that have helped me in so many ways over, even, the past few years with my kids, even as they grow into different stages, the tools continue to work. I've worked with a lot of different parent educators, what she will teach you is incredibly valuable and practical. And, that's what's important. You can read a million books on a lot of stuff and it's overwhelming, but I think what Amy's going to teach you, is very practical. Amy McCready is the founder of positive parenting solutions and the creator of the 7-Step Parenting Success System. She is the author of two best-selling parenting books. If I Have to Tell you One More Time and The Me, Me, Me Epidemic. Amy is a Today Show contributor and has been featured on CBS This Morning, CNN, Fox and Friends, MSNBC, Rachael Ray, Steve Harvey, The Doctors and others. Her greatest joy is helping moms and dads become the parents they've always wanted to be. Amy, thank you so much for being here. I'm actually really honored that you chose to come on my podcast, and you know how much I adore you. So, this is really exciting for me. Amy McCready: Well, I'm thrilled to be here, Doryn, thanks for asking me. It's always fun to do a podcast with somebody that I've known for a while. So, I appreciate being asked. Doryn Wallach: Good. So, I want to start with a story, I actually texted Amy about the story. We never actually talked in person. And, it was advice that Amy had given me... Or, it was a while ago, but I read both of your books, I don't retain information as well as I'd like to. One of the things that I took from it, and there are many others, and we'll talk about it, but one of the things was natural consequences or a consequence relating to an action. So, my daughter started middle school this fall. She's 12, and turning 13, started sixth grade. She, in the mornings, would just hang out and not get ready, despite numerous times telling her to get ready. And, this year, she was taking a bus from the West Village in Manhattan up to the Bronx. So, you miss the bus, there's no bus. It's no easy way of getting there. We both work. We both have to be somewhere in the morning and we can't bring her to school. This was only the fourth day of middle school, she was kind of, getting ready to go out the door and I said, "Oh, Tatum, by the way, when you get home, can you please clean your room." She's, "I cleaned my room," and I said, "I need you to clean it better. But, just do it when you get home." In that moment... Even probably a couple minutes before, we're, "You're going to be late, hurry up, the bus is coming." We had an app that we could watch the bus coming. So, we knew it was coming. In that moment, she decided that was a good time to go clean her room. And, we were, "Tatum, do not go up those stairs, you're going to be late, and you're going to miss the bus." Now, my husband, I'm very lucky because he usually... Not all the time, but a lot of times, we're very much on the same page. So, he had known that I had spoken with you. I think I called you and I said, "Every day, I'm yelling at the kids every morning. Nobody's getting ready. No one's getting out the door. And, I'm sick of it." I think I can speak for many parents who go through this. I believe, the advice I got was, if she misses the bus, then, on your own time, you let her know that when you can do it, you will take her to school, but that might be 10 o'clock in the morning. And, if she misses the bus, that's going to be the consequence of the action. If I'm wrong with what you told me, we can go back to that. But, I believe that's something you said. Amy McCready: That's right, as long as you revealed it to her in advance, and she knew what the deal was, right? Doryn Wallach: Yes. Yep. So, lo and behold, she finally gets out the door, after us calmly saying, "You're going to miss the bus, Tatum, going upstairs right now is not a good idea. You should really come down, you're going to miss the bus." She goes outside, the bus driving away. She was hysterically crying on the sidewalk, pounding her fists, "Please take me to school, please take me to school." I said, "Sorry, I have a nine o'clock meeting. I'm not going to be able to take you to school. We gave you numerous warnings. We told you what had to be done." I've never seen her so hysterical. So, of course, in that moment, I'm, oh my god, I can't believe I just did this. I'm the worst parent ever. I didn't follow through 100% with the waiting until later because it was her first week of middle school and it was already hard for her. But, I ended up taking her an Uber which cost $140 round trip. And, all the way there I said, "I had a nine o'clock meeting that I'm missing, this is not okay." I said, "And, you are going to pay for this Uber out of your allowance until you pay it off." I dropped her off at school then I called a bunch of friends. I probably texted you, Amy, and I was, "Oh my god, I feel awful." My husband happens to be a little bit more of a helicopter parent than I am. The look on his face, when we were both looking each other like, what do we do? What do we do? What do we do? All right, let's just do this. It was so hard. But, she was never late again, not one day, the entire year. She never missed the bus again. Amy McCready: But, you allowed her to experience the consequence. So, she wasn't late for school, but she did have to pay that off with her allowance. So, she knew ahead of time what the deal was, and you followed through. So, that was a great parenting moment there. It was so hard though, wasn't it? Doryn Wallach: So hard. I think she's going to be traumatized by it though, or she's going to bring it up for the rest of my life. Amy McCready: No, she is not. What you taught her in that moment is personal responsibility. Like you said, she hasn't been late again, right? Doryn Wallach: Right. I remember we had a parent's back to school night a couple days later, and everyone's, "How's the first week going? I was, "Well, Tatum missed the bus, so that wasn't good. "They're, "Oh, my God, what did you do? Did you drive her?" We're talking about it, and everybody was blown away that I actually followed through with it. I always get, "Oh, I wish I could do that." You can do it. You just have to do it. I think our generation, in general, and I'm guilty of it myself, we tend to try to do so much for our kids and it backfires. Amy McCready: I think that is one of the hardest things about parenting, in general. But, particularly in parenting tweens and teens, is we forget our job description. And, that is preparing them to be adults, right? Our job at this stage where you are right now, particularly, is taking them from being completely dependent on us to being fully independent. That is a really big shift, right? There are a whole lot of skills that they have to acquire. And, that one little thing that you did is huge in helping them make that shift. So, it is hard, and it's gut wrenching for both parties, but those are the little things that we have to do for us to fulfill our job description, right. So, feel proud of yourself there. That's like a big fist pump moment for you. Doryn Wallach: So, the more that I've put into play what you've taught me, the more I truly see, I didn't grow up that way. So, my mom did so much for me, but she did teach me to competence and she did have me do a lot of things on my own. But, at the same time, I don't know, it was somewhere in the middle. Sometimes I felt like she had me do too much. So, then there's that part of me that's saying, oh, I feel like I'm making her do too much and I should really be doing these things for her. But, we're not going to get into that right now. I think some of the things that parents are facing in this tween, early teen stage right now, I'm obviously in the thick of it with a 10 year old, almost... He's turning 10 next couple of weeks, I think it's the threatening, bribing, yelling, which let me tell you, I have not been parent of the year and this quarantine. I've lost it more times than I can tell you and I have bribed and threatened more times than I can tell you, because you just done. It has not been easy to put any advice into play. I actually keep saying to my kids, you're going to forgive me for this time one day, right, when you're a parent. "You'll go, oh, yeah, okay, that must have been really hard, mom. One of the biggest things that I'm coping with right now with both kids, is negotiations. One of the other things you taught me was, allowing a kid, in the right circumstance, to plead their case, to be able to talk calmly about why they think whatever it is, is the right thing to do. However, my children's negotiation is like, please go set the table, please go take a shower, time to go to bed. Whatever transition is going on, is a, "Well, but what if [inaudible 00:11:04]." Everything, there's just a negotiation for everything. I don't know if that's them trying to just show their independence, or is it me trying to hold back on giving them their independence out of a sense of control. But, it's just once in a while, I'll be, "Guys, I'd just like you just say, okay, mom, and just go do it." Amy McCready: Yeah. Doryn Wallach: I think friends of mine struggle with the same thing. So, I'd like to touch on that. Then, the second thing that I think would be great to talk about, and we have other things, is, I've seen a lot of my listeners posting about, with the older kids, the eye rolls and the attitude and wanting to stay in their rooms, and only coming out when they want something. We chatted briefly, and you had a suggestion for another podcast. I love the idea. You tell me what you said to me. Amy McCready: It's funny, I was looking at some of the comments from your listeners. I know we've talked about this in negotiation, and all of that, and some of it is just the natural individualization that happens when kids are this age. They are supposed to do some of these things. They are supposed to separate from us, they are supposed to exert more independence, control, all of those types of things, that is supposed to happen. But then, there are also things that we, as parents, do that make it worse. So, I'm going to touch on some of those things. There are some simple things that we can do to make the situation better. As I was sort of preparing to chat with you, you know how I am, I'm such a trainer by heart, I came up with 5 points system, if you will, just to address some of these things. So, I thought we could just chat through that, if that makes sense to you. Doryn Wallach: Yep. Wonderful. Amy McCready: Some of these have to do with our kids and some of them have to do with us. So, the first one you hear me talk about all the time, Doryn, and it's just that emotional connection with our kids. So, as we're home and everything is so stressful, whether it's during quarantine time or not, as your listeners are listening to this podcast three years from now, hopefully, it's not going to be in the situation, but there will be other stressors that are going on. So, as life is stressful, whatever it is, we just have to do a gut check and make sure that we are taking those moments on a daily basis to have that emotional connection with our kids. What that means is, spending one-on-,one time with our kids every single day. So that means you and Tatum, just you and her, 10 minutes a day where you're doing something that she likes to do. So, just as an example for your listeners, what would you guys do? We call it, in our course, mind, body and soul time. So, what would you do with Tatum for mind, body and soul time? Doryn Wallach: Right. I've had to not call it that anymore because they were catching on when they were younger. Honestly, since we've been outside of Manhattan, we're in Long Island, she comes with me to just do errands sometimes and we'll go get an ice cream. I am honestly contemplating moving to the suburbs, because I love our car time together, where we really connect and talk and then we watch a TV show together. But, other than that, she's in a room. Amy McCready: Okay, so it could be watching a Netflix show that you both watch. It could be reading. If your kids like a particular chapter book, it sounds silly, but reading to your teenager is a really cool thing. It's a book that you guys both like. But, something that you are doing with your teenager. It's just one parent, one child. Because, even though they're teenagers, they still have that biological need for connection, and when you meet that need, everything else becomes a little bit easier. They're more cooperative, when you need them to do things, they're more open to doing them. Everything isn't such a battle. So, that is always where we start. I mentioned to Doryn, this branded term that we use called mind, body and soul time. I use that with parents, because it reminds parents that during that 10 minutes or so a day, you're fully present in mind, body and soul. If that feels too corny, to say those words to your child, you don't have to use those terms. But, that's just for you to keep that mindset, top of mind. But, really be conscious of that. What I find over and over in my work with parents, is that as the one-on-one time, and that emotional connection time starts to fall off the radar, the backtalk, the negotiation, the sassiness, the attitude, starts to increase. It is absolutely an inverse relationship. So, that's always the first place that I want you to start. Just again, ask yourself, how is my one-on-one connection time with each of my kids? So, Doryn, I want to just stop there with you. Any thoughts or challenges you've had there? Doryn Wallach: I think when we first started reading about mind, body, and soul time, we were, "Okay, guys, it's our 10 minutes together before bed, let's get in." It became almost too routine and too forced and we were like, [inaudible 00:16:27], God, we were busy, long day. When I started to not put so much pressure on myself for that time, and just kept in the back of my mind, okay, you might not be able to do this seven days a week, especially right now, but when you do have a few minutes... I really tried. I'll say to my son... We actually just started. He's really artistic and I have an artistic background. He had a little bit of a meltdown a few weeks ago, and he's a that's very happy and keeps everything in. He had his first meltdown in this quarantine, and we had a long talk. I said, "Hey, bud, have you been drawing at all?" He said, "No." I said, "You know, what, I haven't been painting or doing anything or creating or designing." I said, "I just don't have the bandwidth, I just haven't been able to." We decided that we were going to make a once a week time together, where we would both do our own individual art projects, but we would do a check in with each other, and sit with each other alone and do art. Now, unfortunately, that only happened once since we decided. I don't even know why. It's just, the days get away from us, and before we know it, we haven't done that. But, I see more of a difference in my... I think my son is in that negotiating stage way more than she is. I see a difference in my connection with my daughter, when I have that alone time with her. Everything changes towards me, she's a lot more loving and open and happy to be around me. So, you're right. It definitely makes a difference. Him, I think the same, too. When he was younger, I was starting a business when he was little, and he had a rough year at school and I was really busy. Looking back, I think we were on vacation, and we were spending time together and he was a lot more calm. I was, "Oh, God, this is my fault, because I've been busy and I haven't been spending enough one-on-one time with him." But, it's meaningful. It's important. Amy McCready: Yeah. What I also heard you say was, that he seems to be generally a happy, easygoing kid. What also tends to happen, is that when they're happy and easygoing, we think, oh, they don't really need it, everything's fine. Then, things go haywire and we're, whoa, where did this come from? Doryn Wallach: Yes. Amy McCready: So, if we're not doing that, it's, okay, yeah, they're happy and easygoing, until they're not. Then, we're like, whoa. So, my encouragement for all of your listeners, is to, whether you're having struggles with your kids or not, this need, I'm telling you, is biologically wired within your kids, they really desperately need it. So again, I recommend what Doryn said, don't make it this big, ooh, we're doing mind, body and soul time before bed. Do it where you can in your day, but make it a thing that you do. Make it intentional, and find the time to do it, whether it's with the art or reading to them or whatever it is. But then, the other thing that I also recommend is, bookend it. What I mean by that is, when you're done, say, man, I loved hanging out with you. I loved having one-on-one time with you. This is one of the best parts of my week. Punctuated with reminding them of how special this time is. And, I am telling you that you will see a difference in their cooperation, their attitude, their energy. Things just get lighter and easier within a couple days of implementing this practice. So, if you do nothing else from what we talked about in this hour, just do this one thing, because it truly makes such a difference. So, that's the first of the 5 steps in the [inaudible 00:20:11]. Doryn Wallach: And, it does, honestly. My only advice, I think, goes, what you just said is, just make it natural. Amy McCready: Absolutely. Doryn Wallach: I'd love to spend some time with you, what if we take 10 minutes and go get an ice cream or go sit and watch a show or whatever it is. I do always say how much I love it, not just because you told me but because I actually really do, and want to make sure they know how much I love spending alone time with him. So many things that you have taught me, I practice all the time, and I'm very grateful for it. So, guys, this is who you should be listening to, Amy. I tell everybody about you. I do. Amy McCready: I love the endorsement. Doryn Wallach: Yeah, it's true. I've read so many books, and I've listened to so many people, most of them are poopoo. Amy McCready: I appreciate that. Okay, so here's the second thing, and this has to do with us, too. Let me just also say, guys, that we all know this intellectually, that you cannot change another person, right? You cannot change your kid, you cannot change your partner. You can try, but it's futile, right, you're going to end up in a giant power struggle. What you can do is change your responses to that person. That is how you will be successful in changing their behavior or their attitude. So, that's why so many of these things I'm talking about is really changing our responses to their behavior. This next step that I'm going to talk about is in that vein. So, the next thing is, I want us to think about how we are showing up for the other people in our family. So, I want us to think about our energy. So, when we pop into the kitchen, or in the family room, or wherever we are with our kids, how are we showing up? What is our energy like? If I asked your kids to finish the statement, my mom is always blank. My dad is always blank. How would they finish that sentence? Doryn Wallach: Oh, God. Amy McCready: My mom is always stressed, busy, concerned about work, concerned about what's on her phone. Or, would they say, my mom is always light. My mom is always present. Doryn Wallach: My kids would say I was always stressed and frazzled. Amy McCready: Yes. Yeah, I get that, because that's probably what mine would, too. Right? But, how do we want them to finish that sentence? My mom is always on my team. Right? My mom gets me even when I'm having a really bad day, which is what tweens and teens have all the time. My mom is with me. She gets me. So again, I want us to think about how we show up for our people, even when we're having a bad day. So, think about our energy. Are we light? Are we easy to be with? Are we difficult and heavy and stressed all the time? So, think about what you need to do to lighten your energy. Maybe, it's playing classical music or yoga spa music or lighting candles. What can you do in your physical environment to lighten your energy? Maybe it's meditating for 15 minutes before you come downstairs in the morning. What can you do? I'm terrible about that, by the way. Doryn Wallach: Yes. Amy McCready: I'm not a good meditator, because I'm so type A, I'm just terrible. Doryn Wallach: Me too. I've tried it so many times. I start it and that doesn't get pass the third session. Amy McCready: I know, we need to do a podcast. You need to bring in a good expert on that topic. I'm not the one. Doryn Wallach: Seriously. Amy McCready: But anyway, really, if we want to improve that energy between us and our kids, we need to show up as that lighter, easier person. Does that make sense? Doryn Wallach: This is why mom's drink wine. Amy McCready: Exactly. Doryn Wallach: That lighter energy comes after a few glasses of wine or whatever your poison is. Amy McCready: Unfortunately, that doesn't help us in the morning, right at 8 o'clock. Doryn Wallach: No, it doesn't help us. But, I think there are some moms that are doing that in the morning, but that's another issue. Amy McCready: That's another podcast, right? Doryn Wallach: Yeah, I'm actually, I think, in the morning, probably the most calm, except, well, when we're trying to get out the door in the morning. But actually, when I started implementing what you taught me and giving up that control of let's go, let's go, let's go, or caring if my kids said I'm not wearing a coat today, I'll be like all right, don't wear a coat. I think that it made mornings a little easier, giving up that control of trying to make sure that everything was right. Okay, that's amazing advice, and I think that whatever that is, I wish I knew what that was. Maybe, if you're listening to this and you have advice for how you stay calm before wine time, let us know. I would love to have this discussion. Amy McCready: Okay, the next thing is, give up control. So, we talked a little bit about this the other day, Doryn. You don't have to do something about everything. Decide what are the most important things that you need to do something about. There are so many things that come up, so many comments, so many whatever, you don't have to do something about everything, decide what you can let go and focus on the most important things. Now again, as we go on in this discussion, we're going to talk about a lot of different tools, I would also think about where can you bring your kids into more of the decision-making process. Let them have more say so in your family. It can be little things like getting them involved in planning the menu for the week, deciding where you're going for dinner, Friday night, when we're finally going back out to dinner at restaurants. Giving up some of the control so they can feel like they have more control in the family. Doryn Wallach: What are some other examples of that? Amy McCready: I know you're familiar with this, family meetings. Doryn Wallach: Oh, we do that. By the way, we do that. Well, we haven't in this time. We were doing that once a week. I forgot that, that was something you told me about. Amy McCready: Yeah, so super empowering. So, there is a problem in the family, right? There's an issue where we're arguing over something, whether it's technology rules, or whatever, well, parents can come in and decide what the rules are. Or, you can allow the kids to have some input in how this is going to go. Or, as I said, deciding what the menu is going to be or what, again, when we're all vacationing, what the family vacation plans are. We have this much to spend on activities during vacation. And again, if we're talking about tweens and teens, what an empowering thing. This is how much money we have for activities, you guys do the research and decide what activities we're going to do, while we're on vacation. Anytime that you can bring them into the decision-making process, that's super empowering for kids. The bottom line is, for most tweens and teens, their biological need is to have more independence and control, but, we, parents tend to be holding it all. Doryn, you're familiar with us, one of the things that we have parents do in our program, is go through a parent personality assessment, so you understand the natural bend of your personality. For many of us, our natural personality style is to be very controlling. That may be very effective for us in a work environment, but it is just very difficult in a parenting situation. Because, the more we try to control our kids, their natural reaction is to fight back. So, if you have a lot of power struggles with your kids, it's very likely that your personality style is naturally very controlling. So, just something to think about there. Step 4 is, for in the moment, to do a safe face and a redo. So, when you get that sassy remark in the moment, you do a safe face, like, I'm sure you didn't mean for it to sound that way. I'm sure you didn't mean to hurt my feelings. I'm sure you didn't mean for the comment to sound that way. But then, you do the nonverbal redo signal. So, if you can see me, I'm circling my finger in the air. So, ahead of time, you take time for training and you say, in the future, if a comment comes out that sounds a little bit rude or whatever, I'm sure you don't mean for things to sound that way, but I'm just going to do this circle with my finger in the air. And, that just means, let's try that again, right. Doryn Wallach: Does that work? Amy McCready: Will it work? Yeah, it totally works. Allow your child to save face. You know what, I know you didn't mean it to sound like that. You know what I mean? I know you wouldn't mean to hurt my feelings, it just came out of your mouth that way. Then, you give her the redo opportunity. But, here's the key thing, it has to be a two way street and she can do it to you. Doryn Wallach: Okay. Amy McCready: So, the next time you lose your stuff a little bit, she can do the exact same thing. She does the redo back to you, and you immediately say, you know what, that did not come out the way I meant it to, what I meant to say is, and then you restate it in your calm voice. That is super empowering for kids. Doryn Wallach: Then, when you're the controlling parent that you are, it doesn't matter, I'm your mother. It can't be a double standard. Amy McCready: Then, the last little thing for in the moment, is you refuse to participate. So, if they are tossing up that really sassy comment or they refuse to do the redo, you're not going to get into, excuse my language, a pissing match with them, right? You're not going to get into that. You're going to say, you know what, sweetie, I love you too much to fight with you about this, let's talk about this later, and you walk away. That, I love you too much to fight with you, I'll chat with you about this later, when we're both feeling a little bit more calm, and you walk away. But, it's like that tennis match analogy, right? If you and I were playing tennis, I serve the ball to you, you hit it back to me, then we have a game going. But, if I serve the ball to you, and you let it drop and walk away, now, I don't have anybody to play with. Doryn Wallach: You know what, I think that works really well with my daughter, especially because... My husband gets very offended if she does a run out of the room and slams the door or has an attitude or whatever it is. Sometimes it'll be like, don't talk to your mother that way. I think that's where you kind of get lost in between, how do I teach my kids to speak respectfully to people and make sure that they understand that, that tone's not acceptable. But, on other times where I've experimented and said, you know, I'm just going to let her throw this tantrum and go in the other room. And oftentimes, she ends up coming out later and apologizing on her own. Amy McCready: Does she ever speak that way to anybody outside of your household? Doryn Wallach: No. Amy McCready: No. And, she wouldn't, because you are her safe place, right? Doryn Wallach: Mm-hmm (affirmative)- Amy McCready: The thing with tweens and teens, is there is so much going on in their world. Right, it's not great that she spouts off like that, but, sometimes, it happens. I think we've talked about before, sometimes it just comes out, and you could go and make a big fuss about it in that moment and lay down the law and give her a big lecture and that whole thing, but by just letting it go in that moment, like you said, she comes out a few minutes later, she apologizes, and it's over with. That's a one-off. It was happening every single day, that might be a different thing, but you don't have to do something about everything. Doryn Wallach: So Amy, I know that one of the things that we had talked about together and that I try to implement, is something called asked and answered. Oftentimes with my daughter, and my son, they're negotiating a lot, and it's back and forth. One other thing you also taught me about, and this is separate, allowing your child to show what's their case for why they're choosing what they're choosing and convince me. I think that's what it was. And, see if you can be convinced or if you can't. My daughter, for example, the other day, she wanted to watch a new show, and I really didn't agree with that show. I've actually been very flexible on what she's been able to watch, especially in this quarantine. But, I know her and I've seen the show, and, for me, it made me super anxious and made me have bad dreams at night. I just don't think that she is ready for it, despite her age. I just don't think it's the right show for her. So, she asked me, I explained what I just said, and she came back at me again. I said, "Honey, I just don't think that this is the right show for you. I'm sorry." Then, she came back and explained her case, and I looked at her and I said, asked and answered. But then, she just kept coming after me. To a point where it's so irritating that you lose it. So, I would love to know what I was doing wrong in that situation? Because, whereas, I think, other parenting experts have said to me in the past, if you give in eventually or if you don't follow through with what you say, then they're going to always know that they can keep asking or negotiating. But, I don't do that. So, that's when I go to bed at night being, you're a failure as a mom, you don't know what you're doing. Amy McCready: No, you are absolutely not failing by any means. So okay, so the tool that you're talking about asked and answered, is a brilliant tool for combating what you describe, that negotiating. So, the child has asked for something, you've thoughtfully considered what they want to do, and you've given a thoughtful answer. So, in this situation, the TV show isn't right for her agent and development and you've given that answer. It's intended to avoid that back and forth, asked and answered. So, in this situation, you delivered the asked and answered, but then she wanted to do the badgering. But please, mom, come on, mom, everybody watches it, I want to watch it, why can't I watch it? Why can't I watch it? And, was probably following you around the house, right? Just wouldn't let up with that tool or wouldn't let up with the requests? Is that kind of, how that was going? Doryn Wallach: Yeah, 100%. Amy McCready: Okay. So, that doesn't mean that asked and answered was working. The key is, whether or not you do anything after you deliver the asked and answered. So, the key with asked and answered is you say, asked and answered, and then that's it, you stop talking. Because, if you keep talking, if you keep explaining, if you keep giving verbal feedback, then she gets a hit of attention and power with each additional word that comes out of your mouth. She's not getting to watch the show, that she wants, that's what she really wanted, but she's getting that hit of attention and power and she's pushing your button every single time. So, the key for that to be successful is you say, the asked and answered, and then that's it. Even if she's following you all around the house, you just go about your business, you go fold your laundry, you eat your lunch, you check your email, whatever you have to do, but you don't respond. If you continue to give the payoff for her continued negotiating and badgering, then, in her mind, she's, oh, okay, this behavior works. I'm getting the payoff, I'm pushing her buttons, so I'm going to continue to do it. The next time this comes up, I'm going to do the same thing again. Does that make sense? Doryn Wallach: Yes, it does. I think that's the part that I was missing. Amy McCready: Now, let me give you another tool that is also very effective for this age group. So, this is another example that you could teach your kids for something like, they want to watch a TV show, or they want to do something that might be outside the parents comfort zone. They want to go with their friends to the outlet mall in the next town, they want to go to a concert. Any one of those things that you're, oh, I'm not really totally comfortable with this. They want to start using a new social media platform that you're not totally thrilled with. So, as the parent, your natural tendency is to be, no, I'm not down with that, that's not going to happen. Certainly, that is well within your right. And, i you're just not comfortable with it, you say, no, I'm just not ready for that. The perfect example, was this TV show, you are not comfortable based on her age and development, and the answer is no, and sometimes that's the case. But, sometimes the answer doesn't have to be no, sometimes it can be yes. Or, sometimes the answer could be, convince me. That's what this tool is, it's called, convince me. Convince me is a great tool to balance responsibility and freedom for your kids. So, let's say the example is, they want to go with their friends to the next town outlet mall. You can say, all right, I can certainly understand why you would want to do that, but let me share with you my reservations for you going to the outlet mall. Of course, you would go through your reservations. Well, first, you getting in the car and driving with your friend, and you're going to be spending a lot of money, and whatever all of your reservations are. These are my reservations, but I understand this is important to you. So, why don't you think about my reservations and why don't you come back to me with your plan? Basically, why don't you come back and convince me with your plan for going to the outlet mall? Then, that's her job to come back and convince you that she has thought through her plan, she has a contingency if things go wrong, and then you decide, has she thought through everything you're concerned about? Do you think she's, basically, come up with a list of things that you think are safe, and whatever, that you think she can do this safely and all of that? Doryn Wallach: Yes, that makes perfect sense. Amy McCready: So, in that way, then your child gets some practice in coming up with a good plan, then you can work with them to make sure that they can implement their plan. If they can execute on the plan, they go to the outlet mall and everything goes well, then they've established some goodwill, if you will. And, the next time they want to do something that is somewhat outside your comfort zone, then you feel more comfortable about that. So again, it's another tool that you can use in your toolbox that gives them a little bit more responsibility that you don't always have to be the bad guy, you don't always have to be the one deciding how things are going to go, and you're working in concert with your tweener teen, to come up with ways to give them freedom and responsibility at the same time. Just very empowering for kids and for parents. Doryn Wallach: I can see that my son, the younger one, is really looking for independence right now even more so than she was at that age. I see how, when I give him that, it's super helpful. You know what, honestly, as a mom, it gives you one less thing to do. So, if they're looking for that independence, it's great. Amy McCready: Absolutely. I think too, as we think about our role as parents, I said in the very beginning, we often underestimate our job description, and that is to prepare them to be adults. Move them from being completely dependent to being fully independent. So, if your listeners might even want to just jot down this list, it's a list of skills. So, think about personal responsibility, decision-making, financial acumen, health and wellness, household tasks. Things like changing air filters and all the things that we do around the house, it takes to run a household. Social skills. All of those things that kids need to learn before they go to college or to the military or to their first job when they leave your house, those are a lot of things that kids have to learn, particularly for kids who want to be independent. Let's teach them all those things. Financial acumen, teenagers, let's get them set up with investment accounts. I'm sure your husband would be all over that, right? Let's teach them all those things. That's super empowering. You asked for an example of giving kids opportunities to make decisions, or give them control, let's set them all up with little investment accounts, that they can be investing money. How empowering for kids, and it's teaching them real life skills. There's so many things that we can do to prepare them to launch, where they're learning real life skills at the same time. Doryn Wallach: Coming off of that, one of the other things you taught me, when my kids... And, it's much more my older, she always wants things, always, even though she doesn't need them, and I'll say you have to use your own money. If it's something that's not a necessity, you must use your own money for that. She is running out of money. She's, "I can't afford that." I'll say, "Well, I guess you just don't get it." So, even that has been a wonderful lesson. But, also, this quarantine, my kids, not having as much cleaning help as I normally do or just being around all the time and the house being messier and things going on, they've both learned to do the laundry and to vacuum the floor. That's the one of the bigger blessings in all of this, is that they've learned so much independence around the house. They don't like it, and they think it's going to end when this all ends, but it's not. I think they just think we're just doing this right now to make mom happy, so she's not going crazy. Amy McCready: Oh, Doryn, one other thing I wanted to mention, we were talking a minute ago about cleaning and laundry and all of that, one of the biggest battles that parents face, is getting their kids to do family jobs around the house. You know, one of my big things, I don't like to call them chores, I call them family contributions, because it reminds kids that when they do help out at home, it is a contribution, it makes a difference. I think it's important to remind kids of that. But, that doesn't eliminate the eye rolls and the complaining and all of that that goes with it. So, there are a couple of things that parents can do to just minimize that a little bit. One of the things is, to instead of just nagging kids about helping out all the time, they can invite cooperation. So again, instead of saying, Come on, don't forget to unload the dishwasher. Or, remember you have to... they can invite cooperation by saying, I'm really busy with some things I have to do for work, anything that you can do to clean up or to help with the kitchen, would be so appreciated. Or, I've noticed the family room is just a wreck right now, anything that you can do to help out, would be so appreciated. So, anything that you can do to help out, would be so appreciated. You invite cooperation with a smile. It's so empowering. It's not requiring them to do anything, but 9 out of 10, they will actually help out and do something. Doryn Wallach: Yes, this works so well. Amy McCready: I know. Doesn't it? Doryn Wallach: So well. Recently, obviously, it's just overwhelming how much that we're all taking on, I think, especially moms, and my daughter helped me do a few things. It was actually work related. I said, "Will you help me count inventory?" I said, "I really need somebody else here with me." And, she did. She did not like doing it, but when she was done, I said, "I cannot tell you how much that alleviated my stress. You were so incredibly helpful. And, I just feel so much lighter now, because I had your help. So, I know you didn't like it, but thank you so much." Amy McCready: Yes, don't require it. Don't badger, don't nag them, just invite them. Anything that you could do to help, would be awesome. So, invite cooperation. Second thing is, when they complain about having to clean the bathroom or unload the dishwasher, just show empathy. I hear you. I know, it's no fun. It's my least favorite job, too. Just let them know that you get it. Show empathy without giving in. It creates that little emotional connection. It goes so much farther than giving them a big lecture and you'll get so much more mileage out of it. The next one is, when they have a job to do that hasn't been done, whether it's, again, taking out the trash or whatever, instead of reminding and badgering them about it, just say, what is your plan for taking out the trash or what is your plan for cleaning out the garage? Assume they've agreed to clean up the garage this weekend. What is your plan for taking care of the garage this weekend? That is so much more empowering than nagging or reminding them because it assumes that they have a plan in place. Because, even if they totally forgot about it, they can make up something in the spur of the moment and be, oh, yeah, yes, I'm going to do that. As soon as I finish my lunch, I'm going to go outside and start on the garage. You can be, oh, cool, I know you totally had that under control. So, empowering for them. What is your plan for? Doryn Wallach: Does that work for husbands? Amy McCready: I am not in the husband coaching business, but kind of, it does. Doryn Wallach: Okay, I'll try a different approach. Amy McCready: Super empowering. Then, the last one is, of course, our longtime favorite, the when then. When your family contributions are finished, then you can enjoy your technology. Of course, our technology curfew is 9 PM or whatever that is. A when then plan. When the yucky stuff is done, then you can enjoy the more fun parts. Doryn Wallach: I love when and then and it works really well. I've learned to keep calm when I use it. Another thing they caught on to, when we were listening to your book in the car from skiing every weekend, and we didn't think they were listening and they were, they're, "Don't pull that then and when stuff with us, it's so annoying." They don't know you. If they knew you, they'd love you, but they call you the crazy lady in the audible book. Yeah. Amy McCready: I am a little bit crazy, but that's okay. They don't have to like me. Doryn Wallach: Exactly. But, when and then works really well. Is there another word that we could use, or another way of phrasing that, that's not when and then? Amy McCready: No. Doryn Wallach: No, okay. Amy McCready: No. Because, here's why, it is a natural order in which privileges are allowed. When the yucky stuff is done, then you can enjoy the more fun parts of your day. It's a natural order of the way things happen. It's very distinct from an if then. It's not, if you get your homework done, then you can enjoy technology. That's very much a bribe. And, this is not a bribe. It's very much in keeping with real life, right? When you pay your electric bill, then you get to keep your lights on. It's just the way real life works. I would encourage you to continue the when then phrasing, because it's in keeping with teaching kids personal responsibility. They don't have to like it. They're never going to like everything that you do, but it works. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. Amy McCready: And, it's positive, it's empowering. I can't think of a different way to phrase it, that doesn't turn it into a bribe. Because, that's what we want to get away from. It's not a bribe or a reward, it's just the way that we structure things for personal responsibility. Doryn Wallach: Can I interrupt on the bribe and reward part? Can we just talk about that for one second? Amy McCready: You bet. Doryn Wallach: I stepped away from that for a while and we weren't doing it. So, the two things that we tend to threaten, are technology, and dessert for my son. I hate when I have to get to that point, because I don't like to threaten. But, if you've asked your child over and over again to do something, like, simply go to bed, what do you do that gets them to actually do it, I guess, is the question? I really hope you're going to make the right choice. I've tried doing that. Or, I know you're going to make the right choice, and then walk away from it. Amy McCready: So, I think it depends on what the behavior is. We've talked about this before. In the parenting success program that I teach, we do not advocate rewards at all. And, there's a tremendous amount of research that proves that the use of rewards actually undermines the behavior that you're trying to teach in the first place. We don't have time to get into that in this session. So, I don't advocate rewards at all. Or, the flip side of rewards, which is punishment. So, if we're dealing with bedtime, we deal with the bedtime issue. And again, that's a whole session we could talk about in that. Or, if it's technology, we would deal with that. I wouldn't tie dessert to it. I wouldn't tie technology to bedtime. Those are behaviors that we would handle separately. Because, what ends up happening is, I call that, desperation parenting. Because, it's like you're throwing a Hail Mary, because you don't know what else to do. Doryn Wallach: Exactly. Amy McCready: Right. So, that tells me that we need to dig in, Doryn, right? We need to sit down and say, okay, why are we having trouble with this bedtime thing, let's figure this out. We can always figure it out with other tools in the toolbox. And, if I can't help you, then we go to a sleep specialist who can. But, doing a Hail Mary and taking away dessert and other nonsense, that's not going to solve the root problem for you. Doryn Wallach: Not to get too much into my kids, but the sleep things have gotten much better. With my son now, we just let him read until he falls asleep. We'd say, you have to be in bed at 9, I don't care what time you go to sleep, just turn... he uses a Kindle... turn your book off, and go to sleep. That was life changing for us, rather than fighting with him every night. I think, great, if he goes to bed at 12:30 in the morning, but, whatever, he goes to sleep. Amy McCready: So, you may even back it in even earlier. So, in bed at 8 o'clock, maybe then he gets to sleep at 11. Gosh, that's so late, but anyway. Doryn Wallach: Yeah, I know. Amy McCready: So, we always go to the problem that we're having and find a specific solution for that, rather than doing these desperation parenting moves. Doryn Wallach: Okay. Then, as we talked about before, relating it back to more of the natural consequence of the situation, which I love. Amy McCready: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yep. Doryn Wallach: Okay. Amy McCready: But, here's the thing, for your listeners, I think we always just have to come back to that, misbehavior is always a two way street. So, we have to remember that we're not in this to fix our kids, we always have to look at our contribution to the behavior as well. So, how are we showing up? Are we doing that every day, that emotional connection with our kids? Are we looking at our energy? Are we trying to control everything? Are we also going to give our kids some control and decision-making opportunity? Are we going to give them the opportunity for the redo? Are we going to walk away from the power struggle? Or, are we going to get in the middle of it? So, there's lots of things that we can do, lots of tools that we can use, but, again, our long-term job, we're parenting for the long game, not the, in the moment short game, because our job is to prepare them to be happy, successful, fully-functioning adults, so they can go out into the world and do amazing things. So, we can look back and know that, yes, we did an awesome job, we created and launched successful human beings. Doryn Wallach: You just had a graduate, right? Is that your oldest? Amy McCready: That was my youngest. He just graduated, virtually, unfortunately. So yeah, I have one who's married and one who just graduated from college and is starting his real job in August. So, we will officially be empty-nesters. Doryn Wallach: I've always thought about, I want to sit down with her kids. Amy McCready: They're such nice people. Doryn Wallach: I bet. Amy McCready: In spite of me. Doryn Wallach: I know. Not in spite of you, because of you. Amy McCready: No, they're lovely people. I always say that, they're nice people that I think, if they weren't my kids, I'd love to be friends with them just because they're lovely people. But, I always think it. When I look back, when they were younger, and I was the crazy yelling mom, and I'm still a crazy mom, but I'm glad that when they were younger, I learned some parenting tools because I was a wreck. A train wreck. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. By the way, that is one of the reasons I started this podcast, because I think the overall message here is that we want to better ourselves at this stage of our lives so that we can live the later part of our lives in peace and harmony, right? We want to be able to take these tools now, so whether it's taking care of ourselves, whether it's taking care of our children, being a better mom, a wife, a partner, or in everything that we do, let's learn those now, so that we're not at a certain age going, oh, God, I wish I had known that. And granted, I know that every 10 years, we look back saying, I wish I knew this 10 years ago, but if we can do the work now, I think that's important. I think it comes back to parenting, too. I'm looking at it now, I don't have that many more years with my daughter at home, and I just want these years to be as good as possible, doing the best I can. Amy McCready: Absolutely. I think it's awesome to let your kids know that you are still working to be the best mom, best dad, you can be. Even if it's every other day, say to your kids, you know what, I messed this up, this interaction that we just had 15 minutes ago and the way I said something to you, I messed that up and I'm going to try to do better. Let them know that you're always doing better or you're trying to do better. It's such good modeling for them to see that. So, empowering for them. Doryn Wallach: So Amy, before you go, at the end of my show, I always ask everybody this one question. So, has nothing to do with parenting, but what would you tell your early 30-something self today, if you could give yourself a piece of advice? Amy McCready: Just to relax about everything more, just to enjoy it more, don't be so uptight about everything. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. Amy McCready: Right? Yep. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. Amy McCready: That's what I would tell every parent now, just enjoy it more. Doryn Wallach: It's obviously easier to say that, but even if you are losing it, if you're not enjoying it, if you are in that moment, it's a good thing even just to say to yourself, just as a reminder, even if you're not able to do it, just then. But, still, it's a great reminder. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. I know that we're going to get a million questions from this. Can you please let everybody know how they can find your books as well as your course online? Amy McCready: Yes, thank you so much. So, your listeners can find our 7-Step Parenting Success System by going to our website, which is positiveparentingsolutions.com. They can find my books, The Me, Me, Me Epidemic, and If I Have to Tell You One More Time, both on Amazon and I'm sure you'll have the links and everything. I thank you so much for having me, Doryn, this has been so much fun. We need three more hours. Doryn Wallach: I know. I just want to mention one other thing, if you sign up for the 7-Step Parenting Success System, it is something you are going to use for life. I'm not good at sales, unless I believe in something, and I truly believe there have been moments where I haven't looked at it in months, and then I refer back to something and it's a reminder, and it's always available to you. So, it's helpful. I will also link to it on my Facebook page, Instagram page, and eventually that website that I haven't gotten up yet, because I haven't had time. Amy McCready: All in good time. Doryn Wallach: Yes. Thank you again and I hope to talk to you soon. I'd love to have you back, if you're interested. Amy McCready: That would be so much fun. Doryn Wallach: Wonderful. Thank you. Amy McCready: Thank you. Talk to you soon. Bye. Doryn Wallach: Bye. Thank you again to Amy McCready for being on my show. Amy's information will be both on social media and Facebook at It's Not a Crisis podcast. Always, as usual, please email me if you need any follow-up information at itsnotacrisis@gmail.com. And, also feel free to send any direct messages or emails if you have questions for Amy. She's happy to answer those. Thank you very much for listening. I am your host, Doryn Wallach. I have a lot of great episodes lined up and ready to be recorded soon. So, I will let you know about those on social media. I hope you all hang in there, and I'll see you next time.

EPISODE 3 I can't tell you how many fad diets I have tried. Staring at skinny Moms I know on Instagram and they're posting their shakes, bran crackers and whatever else they are doing. After many years, I discovered that none of that is me and none of that works. Being healthy, enjoying food (I LOVE TO EAT) and just being confident in your body is the most important thing. I reached out to Amy when I was having a hard time with some health issues. She was practical, calm, understanding and the same age, so she just got it. Nutrition in your 40s isn't just about weight, it's also a mindset. So you need to be in the right place mentally to approach nutrition healthfully. Amy Shapiro of Real Nutrition NYC makes that possible... Products Mentioned: -Further Food Collagen https://shop.furtherfood.com/collections/collagen-collection -Nounos Yogurt https://www.nounoscreamery.com/ And remember: It's not a crisis! EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Doryn Wallach: Hi, everyone. Welcome to episode two of It's NOT A Crisis. I'm your host, Doryn Wallach. This is a podcast for women in their 40s who are navigating the joys and the challenges of midlife and learning to make the most of it. First, I just want to say that I hope everyone is doing okay. This has been a crazy rollercoaster ride, and I know it will continue to be. I've really just come up for air for the first time and feels good to be doing something, but it's been difficult. I'm just very grateful to be healthy and that my family is healthy. I also just want to thank anyone who's listening that's an essential worker. Thank you so much for doing what you're doing and allowing us to stay home. We really appreciate it. I haven't had an opportunity to do my thank you’s, so hopefully, there's somebody listening that knows how grateful we are. I also want to mention that you the listener has a very big part in this podcast. I do this because I want to give back to other women, so I want to make sure that this is the right place for you to be getting information. So, if you have anything that you want to discuss, please DM me on Instagram or Facebook. Feel free to comment in one of the posts, as well as email, itsnotacrisis@gmail.com, and please subscribe anywhere that you listen to podcasts. Your subscribing helps the podcast to be known to other women. So, it's really important you subscribe, you rate, you share, anywhere that you listen to podcasts. Also, you can find us on Instagram, It's Not A Crisis Podcast, or Facebook, same thing. We also have a private group. I would love you to join the group. We will use that place for discussions. Amy Shapiro: If we really put in an effort to eat really healthy, and nutritionally, and balanced, and to support our body throughout the day, there's always space for that indulgence. Doryn Wallach: Amy Shapiro is the founder and director of Real Nutrition, a New York City based private practice dedicated to healthfully and successfully guiding clients to their optimal nutrition, weight, and overall wellness. She is internationally recognized for her individualized lifestyle focused approach, which integrates realistic food plans, smart eating habits and active living. Through encouragement, education, and the right tricks of the trade, Amy believes that anyone can achieve their nutritional goals while still enjoying the foods and flavors that they crave. It's always really important to me to let you guys know where I find my guests, because they have some sort of connection to me, I know who they are. And when I work with anybody, I'm extremely picky about who I work with and I do a lot of research, so I think it's only natural for me to bring you the best of the best, and hopefully I will continue to do that. I found Amy through my gynecologist when I was experiencing a little bit of a hormonal crisis this fall, and I really wanted to get my nutrition on track. And in such a vulnerable time in my life, Amy was wonderful, and accepting, and kind, and patient, and not extremist. She didn't scare me about nutrition, and I just thought that, especially during this time right now, she was the perfect guest to speak to all of us. I think we're a few weeks into this and our nutrition has probably been all over the map, and at the same time, we're still the age that we are, so we still have to pay attention. So, Amy, welcome to the show. Amy Shapiro: Thanks for having me. I'm so excited. Doryn Wallach: Before we get into what we're going to chat about, we were talking and we felt that it was impossible to just talk about being in your 40s and dealing with nutrition alone, because we are going through what we're going through, and there are a lot of new nutritional challenges that we're all facing, with the lack of food resources, and having the kids around, and trying to give everybody meals, and this person's picky, and this one doesn't like this, and that one loves this, and then just kind of taking care of yourself right now. So, I think we're going to talk a little bit about that, but also at the same time, we're still the age that we are, and nutrition has become more of a challenge as we get older. Amy Shapiro: Yeah, for sure. I do joke with some of my friends that if you have a birthday during quarantine, that it doesn't count, so maybe we're not really getting older. Doryn Wallach: I love that. I also think calories count, but we'll talk about that. Amy Shapiro: Right. Doryn Wallach: So, I want to start with this. Two sides to this. First of all, I think a lot of us, as we get older, are finding it harder to lose weight, and yet we have these hormonal fluctuations that are making us crave stuff that's bad for us. So, there's that component. And the second part of it is, I personally, in this quarantine, have gone through a range of issues with food. So, I have to be really upset to not eat because I love to eat. So, for me, it started with not eating at all, I couldn't even look at food. And then I started to buy like 80s crap, just comfort foods from your childhood, then I went into that stage. Then I started to feel gross and wanted to eat better but was a little overwhelmed with the day to day because I'm trying to pack in grocery deliveries, as well as ordering stuff on Amazon, and then it just looks like a whole mess of things. And personally, I'm not that person that can creatively put things together. It's just not me. So, I think that's where I've been struggling, is just trying to figure out the next meal and then ultimately ends up, I just don't eat. So, I would like to get your thoughts on that and what you've even seen with your own self and family. Amy Shapiro: Yeah. It's a lot. I mean, it's a lot and there's a lot of feelings, and there's a lot of feedings, and there's a lot of emotions, and so I don't think there's an easy solution for anyone. I think now that the "hoarding period," I think has passed, where we all were just stocking up on dry goods we've never cooked before just in case we couldn't get to a supermarket, I think that period has kind of passed, and in most neighborhoods, you can probably get some food and Amazon has more food. But it's challenging to stock up on all the things that we usually recommend to stock up on, a lot of fresh foods, fill half your plate with vegetables at every meal, have lean, healthy, clean, organic, grass-fed proteins. These things aren't always accessible now, and even myself, I'm finding myself just saying, "I don't even know what label chicken cutlets this is, but it's here, so I'm going to get it." So, I think part of it is really prioritizing what's going to keep you sane. How can you feed yourself and your family in an easy, ideally, healthy-fashion, but also kind of stock your house with staples. So, I think it's really just getting the basics. It doesn't have to be gourmet. Some people are gourmet. I had a great friend email me that she was making quail the other day, or pheasants. And I was like, "Great, I'm grilling some chicken again." But I think stocking your house with some things that can make a meal. So, it would be some lean proteins. That can include anything from your pantry, like lentils, and garbanzo beans, it can be chicken, it can be yogurt, and then having some vegetables, fresh or frozen, or having some fruit, and then having some sort of a whole wheat slice of toast, if you can find it, or some grains. So, I really think it's just kind of looking at the basics and making sure that you have something to put together. I don't even know if that answers your question because there's just so much going on around all of this. Doryn Wallach: Just to step back a little bit, what are things that we should be incorporating in our lives? Pretend this is not happening right now, and then I have a follow up question for that. But in our 40s, nutrition changes. I don't want to be deprived of things I love, and I used to like going to restaurants, but that's gone. I still want to be able to indulge in things, and I think for me, and I think we talked about this when we met, there's this anxiety or this all or nothing thing that when I start eating healthy, I feel guilty if I eat something else. But I want to know what we're supposed to be eating at this stage of our lives, and how much we're supposed to be eating, and realistically, when we can indulge. Amy Shapiro: So, I think that it really depends. First, let's like talk to me indulgent part, because I think that it depends on what do you as an individual feel or crave as an indulgence, right? So, some people want to indulge in alcohol, some people want to indulge in pasta, some people want to indulge in chocolate, so it really depends on that. And I think at the time like this, or anytime no matter how old you are, I think there's space for indulging lightly, not overeating, but really having what you love every day. I think that it just comes with balancing out, "Am I having everything that I love at the same time or am I choosing to have one thing that I really love today and tomorrow's another day?" So, I think that's kind of where indulgences can get people into trouble or can make them feel guilty, is kind of when they're saying like, "Well, this is all or nothing, and now I'm indulging in my thing, and I got to do it all right now," or saying, "I'm going out to dinner," back in the day, "and I want to indulge in a couple of glasses of wine, because it makes me feel great, and I really love that, and I'm going to edit a few other things out of my meal so I can really indulge in that thing." So, I think it's important to kind of hone in on what you truly want to indulge in in that moment. Does that make sense? Doryn Wallach: Yes, that does make sense, and I think that's kind of what I do. Yesterday, all I wanted was brownies. Actually, instead of making them, which I even have a box, I ordered brownies online from this place that I really liked their brownies. So, I ate really healthy all day knowing that I was going to have that brownie after dinner. Amy Shapiro: Yeah. And also, though, if you're indulging, it should be you are worth the best, right? So, if you're going to indulge, it's great that you didn't make the box brownie because you wanted this great place's brownie, and that is truly an indulgence. You're indulging yourself, and you're indulging your taste buds, and you're having something that's worth it. So, I think that's also a really important component, because it's easy to eat the brownie that you make for your kid that's stale for two days in your kitchen because you're walking through, or you're consciously saying like, "Woof, I really want that brownie. I'm going to order it and I'm going to have it." Doryn Wallach: But the box brownies are so good. Amy Shapiro: Right. True. But if they're around in the kitchen and they're not fresh and gooey anymore, you might still eat it because you're walking through and it's there. Whenever I talk to my clients about indulging, especially in your 40s, it's A, you're worth the best, so wait for something that's really worth it. Don't eat off of your kid's plate, don't have a bite of your kids crappy chocolate bar, really elevate. "What do I want? Because that's what I deserve." So, it's kind of when you indulge, you're making yourself feel good about it too, and I think that's important. Doryn Wallach: Yeah, I agree with that. Sorry. Go ahead. Amy Shapiro: I was going to say, and then also, it's how do we eat overall, which is the first question that you kind of tuned to, and if we really put in an effort to eat really healthy, and nutritionally, and balanced, and to support our body throughout the day, there's always space for that indulgence. I know we can get more into that, but it's also saying, taking the time to think about how you're going to set up your day as best as you can, especially right now, to allow for that indulgence, which might just be what you need at the end of the day, or in the middle of the day, or at homework time. Doryn Wallach: Yeah, exactly. So, just getting back to age, I feel like the most important thing for me with every passing year is keeping my blood sugar level throughout the day, and I used to not eat breakfast, and fast until two o'clock, and I know that works for a lot of people, for me, that just didn't work. I would be really irritable, and even doing it for a long term, it just wasn't feasible for myself. But I do feel like, though, that if I don't keep my blood sugar up, it affects me, like everybody, but it affects my mood, and it makes things harder. So, with that being said, today, I feel like... I don't know, I feel like I'm busier now than I was before, in some ways, and then some days I find myself tapping my fingers on my desk like, "What do I do?" But I'm sure there are a lot of things I could be doing. How do you feel about that? I feel like you're not a big fan of snacking in between meals, if I remember correctly. Is that right? Amy Shapiro: Well, ideally what I try to set up for my clients is, you want to eat balanced meals so they can sustain your satiety for at least three to four hours between meals. And then I do usually recommend one snack a day, and that tends to be between lunch and dinner because that's a longer stretch than between breakfast and lunch usually for most people. Now, this isn't my recommendation, of course, when we're not stuck in our homes and have access to our pantries 24/7, but you might be eating dinner earlier now that you're home with your family and you don't have to get home from work. So, if you are eating balanced and balancing your blood sugar levels, because that's what will control your hunger and your mood, then you should be able to go three to four hours between meals. So, snacking is optional. If you're not hungry then you don't have to have it, but I do recommend a snack in the later afternoon because, one, it helps that three or four o'clock slump that most people hit because their blood sugar is low, that's why you reach for that coffee, or that soda, or that candy at that time, but also it helps you to show up to dinner not ravenous, so you can mindfully go into dinner without overeating. So, I do recommend that afternoon snack to help you meet your goals and to power through the rest of your day. Doryn Wallach: What are super easy ideas for that snack? Amy Shapiro: So, that snack, to me, is usually anything from whatever fruit you can get your hands on these days, so let's say an apple with 10 walnuts, or it could be an apple with nut butter, if you have that in your pantry, because it is definitely shelf stable, it could be a cup of berries and a scoop of yogurt, it could be some rolled up turkey slices with carrots and celery. So, what you can hear me saying and all of these recommendations is you're going to be pairing some sort of carbohydrate, which is anything plant based, with a protein or fat to slow the digestion and to help your blood sugar to remain stable. So, if you just had the apple by itself, which is a very healthy snack, you'd be hungry again in 45 minutes, because an Apple has natural sugars in it and it's the carbohydrates, so you digest it very easily and quickly. So, great, if you're eating it right before you go out to dinner, and you just want to curb your appetite, but if you need to sustain yourself for a couple hours, you're going to be starving in 45 minutes. Pair that Apple with a protein or a fat such as some nut butter, or some nuts, or some yogurt, you'll go longer because you'll slow down the digestion and you'll be able to withstand a couple hours. So, that's kind of your magic bullet for meals and snacks, it's just going to be the portion which really makes it different for what makes a meal and what makes a snack. But that's kind of the equation to help you sustain your energy. Doryn Wallach: It's funny. I always tell my kids to have an apple when it's getting close to dinner because I want them to eat their dinner and I know it won't fill them up, and they're like, "I don't want an apple, I want Cheddar Bunnies," or whatever they want. Amy Shapiro: Same difference, I mean not nutritionally, but they'll still be hungry. Doryn Wallach: Right. Exactly. Amy Shapiro: Yeah. I give my kids cucumbers. They love those mini Persian cucumbers, so I give them those right before dinner, because then it's like, A, I got the vegetables, and B, they're still showing up hungry. So, if you're "dieting," that's a great snack, but not by itself, because you too will be very hungry. Doryn Wallach: Right. By the way, the other advice that you gave me, which has been life changing for me is full fat yogurt as opposed to the low fat, and I was eating low or no fat for years, and then I started buying full fat, and it really makes a difference in how much it fills you up. Amy Shapiro: And it also makes a difference in what it tastes like, right? So, you and I and anybody listening to this probably grew up in the age of fat free, right? It's like an old habit just like cardio, excess cardio workouts. If you eat a fat free yogurt, you can eat so much more because you just don't get as full, but if you eat full fat, A, the mouthfeel is better, the texture is better, the taste is richer, and you just can't eat as much, and it's satisfying, right? The fat is there, along with the protein of the Greek yogurt, in this case, to really hold your appetite, because your body has to process the proteins and the fat, and that takes a long time. Additionally, both protein and fat don't have any carbohydrates in them, so they don't manipulate your blood sugar levels at all. So, a half a cup of plain full fat Greek yogurt with some berries in it can possibly hold you for a good two to three hours. Doryn Wallach: I also put a little chia, a little flax, and some pecans. My husband doesn't. He puts sugary granola in his and he's like, "I'm still hungry." I'm like, "Well, you just don't put that in there. Put nuts or something else." I feel like that [crosstalk 00:18:54]. Amy Shapiro: Yeah. But there's also that sweet flavor of the granola with sometimes your brain is like, "Ooh, I want more of that." Right? So, he's pairing it correctly because it's paired with the Greek yogurt, which has protein and fat in it, but it's that flip the switch craving where your brain is like, "Yum, more and more and more," whereas the chia, flax, and pecans, delicious, but more decadent, so you're kind of like, "I'm good." Doryn Wallach: Right. But it's actually vanilla yogurt, so there's sugar in it already, so it's probably not the best for him but it works. It's a good brand. It's Nounos. Have you ever had theirs? Amy Shapiro: Yeah, Nounos is good, and the portions are really small, they're very moderate. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. They actually ship, so they deliver out here, so- Amy Shapiro: Directly. Doryn Wallach: ... you have to buy 12 of them, but they'll deliver right to your door. Amy Shapiro: Oh, see that? Look at all the things we're learning [crosstalk 00:19:45]. Doryn Wallach: I know. I'm learning so many things Important. I'm actually keeping a list. They are all crucial things. So, just getting back to this kind of midlife stage of lives, let's talk about what is important ingredient-wise or food-wise to incorporate into every day. Amy Shapiro: Yeah. This is nothing new, but what's really important to make sure you're incorporating into every day are plants, right? So, fruits and vegetables are so important. One, they help us with blood sugar regulation, which is something we've been talking about through this whole podcast. Two, is they have all vitamins, minerals, and antioxidants, and those are the things that fight disease. So, it's kind of scary to think about it now, but we're at that age where we want to prevent illness, especially where we are current day, but we want to prevent illness. So, all of those antioxidants fight free radicals, which are what cause anything from cancers, to illnesses, to inflammation, but also wrinkles, skin integrity. So, these are all important... not ingredients, but they're important compounds that we only find in plants, in these fruits and vegetables. And you can tell what they are through the colors, right? So, we always say, "Eat the rainbow," and that's because all different colored fruits and vegetables have different antioxidants, which are super powerful in protecting your skin from sun damage, helping to repair your skin, helping to improve your inflammation, helping to improve your digestion, helping your cells to regenerate, so there's so many things. So, that's always my first go-to, I don't think anybody needs to be a raw foodist, but I do think that you really need to make an effort to fill half your plate, at least, with fruits or vegetables at every meal, and vary the colors, which is great now. I just went to the supermarket and they only had red peppers, so I bought them, but there were no green or yellow peppers in sight. Great, I'm covered in that color area, right? But then I bought pineapple because I already had the reds, now I have the yellow. But it kind of forces you to try out different varieties of items. So, that's one reason why we want to eat plants. The other reason is, let's face it, we don't want to be bloated, we don't want to have a [poopy 00:22:02] belly, and high fiber plants help us to be regular. So, the more fiber we have in our diet, the more we eliminate and go to the bathroom, and that's great for vanity sake, but also it's great for preventing illnesses that come up later in life, like high cholesterol or type 2 diabetes. Because what the fiber does for our bodies is, again, it's going to help regulate our blood sugar levels and it's going to capture those toxins and remove them from our body. So, one, it helps us to go to the bathroom more regularly, two, it helps to remove toxins, three, it helps to lower cholesterol, four, it helps us to stay full. And they're super low in calories but really high in water and really high in nutrients, so they're like a more bang for your buck food, right? So, if you're going to fill up most of your plate with vegetables, you're going to feel satiated but you're not going to fill out, you're just going to fill up. Does that make sense? Doryn Wallach: Yeah. It's funny. Vegetables are hard for me. I can eat tons of fruit, but when it comes to vegetables, it's difficult for me to eat them, which is so funny. There are just a few I love, and then I have allergies to peppers, which is a weird allergy, but a real one. I found vegetables very difficult in this time right now. I feel like I have to get like a [crosstalk 00:23:24] or something like that at some point. Amy Shapiro: Well, they are difficult. And also, what makes vegetables great, if you're somebody who doesn't really love them or you have some restrictions is preparation, right? How do you make vegetables taste great. Sometimes they can be a lot of work, especially if you go to the supermarket and all they have are carrots and parsnips, like, "Yay." So, it's what are you dipping them in? What are you cooking them in? How can you jazz them up in a really easy fashion? Or just focusing on what works for you, because I also like to point out that fruit and vegetables have a lot of the same compounds. So, if you love fruit, then you can make sure to eat some fruit, and then just have your staple vegetables that you can get by. If it's spinach, eat spinach every day, if it's not peppers but it's- Doryn Wallach: Broccoli, I eat a lot broccoli. Amy Shapiro: ... [crosstalk 00:24:10]. Doryn Wallach: Sorry. I eat a ton of broccoli but then I get so sick of it. Amy Shapiro: Of course. I mean, a ton of anything, you get really sick of it. So, again, it's going to be how are you preparing it? And that can be hard. I mean, we are also in our 40s, so we're grown up, and it's kind of like, "All right, listen, I got to eat vegetables at every meal. It's just something that's got to happen and I'll make sure the rest of my meal is something that I really love," or something to that nature. And even what you're doing with breakfast by putting chia and flax and pecans, you're also getting a lot of important compounds. Chia and flax have omega-3 fatty acids, which are really important for our brain, our heart, and our skin, and then it also has fiber in it. So, there's that component of helping with bathroom regularity, toxin elimination, cholesterol balance, and all of that. So, fruits and vegetables are ideal if we can get you to eat them or if you can even get your hands on them, but if not, there are definitely other nutrients too. But that's always been my first recommendation. And then, just to kind of go along with that, and since we're talking about fruit, unfortunately, as we get older, we process sugar a little bit less efficiently, and a lot of my clients who are in their 40s or older love fruit because they've given up a lot of their other intelligences, so fruit is their go-to treat because they've given up candy, and they've given up bacon, and they've given up chocolate. And then I have to point out, and this is where people are like, "Oh, I don't know if I like you so much." I like to point out that sugar, sugar, sugar, and if we're overeating fruit all day, if we're eating a banana and mango and our smoothie in the morning, and then we're having an apple for snack, and then we're going to snack on some frozen grapes at night, and then we're going to eat a few figs, all of that is really healthy and plant based and providing us with lots of different nutrients, but at the same time, what are your goals, right? If your goal is weight loss, that's not going to work for you because it's just too many carbohydrates and too much sugar throughout your day. So, you're going to want to make sure to reach for lower sugar fruits that you can eat more volume of throughout the day and meet your markers. So, there is that piece. But once I do make that switch, and I'd say if weight loss is your goal, depending on how active you are, two to three servings of fruit a day max, and I cut people back on that, they'll start to see a huge shift. And I wouldn't say like when people are like, "Oh, I don't eat bananas or I don't eat beef," I'm like, "How many people do you know gained weight eating a banana?" Nobody. That's not the issue. But when I have clients who come in... because most of my clients are fairly educated about nutrition and they come in and they're saying, "I'm doing it all right. I know what to eat, I don't live in a food desert, I'm buying good foods, but I can't get my weight to budge." And oftentimes, it's just I call it you're over-fruiting. Are you over-fruiting. And there's a few things that people overdo that are "healthy," which they are, and they over-fruit and they over-nut, and those are two food groups that can keep you at maintenance, or slowly over time, again, depending on your activity level, can start to cause weight increase if consumed in excess, just like anything else. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. So, I find the other big topic question is carbs. So, many women I know, many friends that I know won't go near a carb, they won't eat bread, they won't eat anything, and I honestly don't know how anybody does that, and I love bread. It's something I've tried many times to do and I just can't do it. I just can't. And I feel like it's funny, the older I get, the more I'm like, "Fuck it." Amy Shapiro: Yeah. The less willpower you have against the things that really move the needle for you. Doryn Wallach: And I understand, by the way, I understand how carbs make you gain weight, I really do, because I feel like if I have an indulgent week of carbs, it goes right on to my hips, and I see a difference in my body at this age. So, I think it would be helpful to share how to keep carbs in your life, even if they're somewhat processed, but whole wheat or whatever it is, but I think being able to... and I know everything is moderation, but I think some people are a little bit confused about what moderation means. Amy Shapiro: Yeah. I mean, I think the whole world is confused what moderation means, and I think that's really a hard concept, which is why when people come to me or people talk about nutrition in general, they kind of want quantities, measurements, and "How much can I have something?" Even if they're a moderate eater, what does that mean? So, let's just go back a little bit to talk about what the big group carbs, what is it made of, right? So, it's made up of dairy, it's made up of fruits and vegetables, it's made up of grains, and cereals, and breads, and then it's made up of desserts and sugars, right? So, nobody thinks about... all of these individuals who are like, "I don't touch any carbs," and this is where the weight gain from fruit comes in... is those are all in the carb family, so we're going to process them and break them down the same. So, that's why when I start to eliminate some of the fruit or limit the fruit, it's because it's a carb, and how many carbs can your body digest and break down without storing them as fat, right? So, they all come together. So, how do they all work out in your favor to consume them all? So, someone might ward off whole wheat bread, and let's not get into the gluten conversation just because it's a carb, but they might be eating two bananas in their smoothie. Guess what? You could have two pieces of toast with some avocado on it, and it's just going to be that your body's going to break it down the same, right? So, carbs across the board, it's how many of them are you eating in your day, and that's one of the big aha moments for people no matter where it comes from. So, if you're going to put oat milk into your coffee because it's dairy free and it's all the rage right now, you have to consider that a cup of oat milk has 21 grams of carbs in it, right? It might be dairy free, yay, but it still has 21 grams of carbs. So, if you're drinking a latte, guess what, you just had one and a quarter servings of carbs from oat milk. So, it's one of those things where these carbs sneak in, and so some people might omit the obvious carbs to make room for these healthier carbs because they prefer them, or on the flip side, you can make room for the bread in your day because you just say, "Hey, you know what, I'm not going to have an apple for a snack, and I'm not going to have a latte, I'm going to have a cappuccino, so I can have that piece of toast in the morning." So, it's just kind of making swaps. Does that make sense? It's like a very long introduction to carbs. Doryn Wallach: Yeah, no, no, it does. Actually, I had two pieces of sprouted bread with avocado this morning. It was actually pretty satisfying. Amy Shapiro: Very. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. And why is it that carbs are the enemy to our bodies as far as gaining weight or putting weight on in places that are typical for women, hips, thighs, stomach, butt? Amy Shapiro: Yeah. Well, carbs, one, let's just talk about what they do for our body. So, they provide energy, period, the end, right? We eat carbs, they break down into sugar in our body, we either use them for fuel, or we store them for later use. That's kind of how carbs work. So, there's just so much of them that we can store without starting to store them as fat. So, if you have a day where you're just kind of... or if you live a pretty sedentary, and in your 20s you were able to eat whatever you want because who cares and you burned everything up, but then in your 30s it's starts to trickle, but I'm really not changing what I'm eating, and then in your 40s you are like, "Wait a second, it's all coming out to my hips but I'm not doing anything different." We need to burn what we consume of carbs before we store them as fat, and we burn less efficiently as we get older unless we're maintaining muscle mass. So, carbs, we need to burn them in order to not use them. So, that's where our activity level comes in, or our limits come in. I think that's one piece. The other piece is that when we break down carbs, we break them down into small sugar molecules called glucose, and then we store those, because this is a stored form of energy, and this is getting a little scientific... we store it in our liver and our muscles for later use, but we store it with two molecules of water. So, that's why when you go on the Atkins diet and you cut out all carbs, you lose 10 pounds really fast because you burn up your stored energy but you also flush out all the water they're stored with. Doryn Wallach: I don't think anyone's really explained it that clearly. I've just seen on Instagram recently, or it's TikTok, I just started looking at TikTok because my daughter's on there, but there's this one woman who has this virus... maybe her husband's doing it, she puts this green face on him and he looks scary, and to me, that's how carbs, I think, are to so many women. It's the enemy. And I think it's good to be able to understand why, but also to be able to understand that we still can. So, thank you. I think many times when I talk to a nutritionist, it's like, "Cut out all the carbs," so often, and you were the first one who didn't do that, and so I appreciate that. Amy Shapiro: Well, I mean, there's a time and a place for cutting out all the carbs. And I always say like, "Are you going to walk down a red carpet? Are you getting married in two weeks? Are you trying to fit into a dress last minute?" I get it, and it works, but it's a short term solution, and you're also going to be hungry, you're going to be grump, all of those things, they come into play. But if you have an overindulgent week of carbs, sure, you're going to feel puffy because you're storing them with water, but if you stop the next week, you'll feel back to your normal self. So, it's also taking a minute to think about your day. If your snack in the afternoon is usually popcorn, and for lunch, you guys are having sandwiches, and for dinner, you guys are having rice and grains, rice and beans, that's a clean but carb heavy day. And if we're stuck in quarantine and we're not really moving as much as we might, especially as New York City people, that slowly creeps up because we're not burning what we're consuming. It's not bad, we just need to make space for it, which brings the moderation piece. Doryn Wallach: Do you think it would help all of us right now to kind of plan out in our heads even? Honestly, I can't do anything in the future right now, but I think at night, I could plan the next day, and that's about as far as I've been able to go. It's just been difficult. So, do you think it would be helpful to kind of think about, "Okay, what am I going to do for breakfast and lunch, and then what are we going to do for dinner?" Amy Shapiro: Yeah. And I usually say breakfast is the easiest meal to edit probably on your own, because even if you are sitting down as a family to eat breakfast, it's kind of the easiest meal to piece together. It's like you have yogurt, you have cereal, you have this, I'm going to make eggs or whatever, right? We all have a little bit more flexibility, maybe not, but in general, I find that. But I do think planning ahead for what are we going to have for lunch and dinner tomorrow will help the individual focusing on their nutrition to say like, "Okay, cool, if we're going to have sandwiches tomorrow for lunch, I'm just going to have mine open face. So, I'm only going to have one piece of it because I know we only have pasta left in the pantry before I go food shopping." So, I would focus on what's happening for the family meal, if you are cooking as a family, or if you're cooking individually or just for you and your partner, what are we eating together that I really can't edit that much and what can I have complete control over? If that makes sense. So, I think it's kind of thinking ahead to the next days first. Which, with our food shopping capabilities right now, and our emptying fridges, and our visits in the supermarket. I think that that makes sense as well. And then something I also say to everyone across the board is, you really just have to nail breakfast, right? Breakfast is either you don't eat it or you do, but it's the most in your control. So, if you nail breakfast, you have more wiggle room for lunch and dinner. This plays true right now in quarantine, this plays true when you're on vacation, right? If you nail breakfast, you might not know what's coming out for lunch and dinner but you've had a little bit more wiggle room. So, I always say breakfast is a no excuse meal. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. And listen, I just want to say to everyone listening, this is an extraordinarily overwhelming time. I know that there's a kind of a moment that we've all hit where were some ways getting used to this, but it's very overwhelming. I think one of the gifts that I've been given in this is that I'm not being so hard on myself as I used to be, because you just can't, because everybody's going through this at the same time and everybody's experiencing. You don't need to be doing X, Y and Z right now. If you just want to sit with yourself, that's okay. And I think when it comes to food, for me and I'm sure other women, it's very overwhelming. I'm a person who's used to ordering takeout, or eating out, I order lunch to my desk at work a lot, I eat breakfast at home, and I cook a few nights a week, but this new normal is even hard with nutrition, and I think being able to give permission to not be so organized, and at the same time, one day... I think we should all start with one day of planning in our head, and I think that that's a good starting point. Amy Shapiro: Or one meal, right? Doryn Wallach: One meal. Amy Shapiro: It's really one meal at a time, or just thinking ahead. But also some people in this time are looking for something to control, because everything feels so out of control. So, maybe this is a good time for you to kind of focus on planning your day, because that might give you some peace and calmness about like, "How am I going to meet my needs and my goals while I'm preparing all this other stuff for everybody else." And then two is the flip side, there are some people who are just like, "I don't have the brain space for this right now." But I say to those individuals, just make sure that you're eating food that makes you feel good, because who cares if you put on five, 10 pounds during quarantine? Maybe that's going to happen. It's not permanent, you can definitely get it off later, but you don't want to be eating the Oreos and the ice cream because their comfort foods because they're not going to do anything for your health right now, if that's you're just like, "Screw it. We're all eating mac and cheese, we're all ordering pizza, we're all doing this." Because now we need to think about other things. So, even if you just say, "Hey, I'm going to eat vegetables, not for weight loss, or not for vanity, I'm going to eat it because it's going to help me feel better once this ends," right? So, sometimes we have to take the focus off of vanity and weight loss and look at our hormones, how we're going to behave to our family, how we're going to feel when we go to our next doctor's appointment and get some blood work done, how we're going to boost our immunity. Doryn Wallach: That's exactly what I was going to say. I actually have probably been eating a little bit better because I want to keep my immunity up, because I want to be healthy. Amy Shapiro: I always say sometimes it's great to be vain, but vanity only gets you so far. And let's say it's like those 10 pounds that I want to lose, a lot of times I hear like, "I'm ready, I'm ready, I'm ready. Oh, but I went out with my friends, or I had a Zoom call with my friends. We had three cocktails, we did all these things." So, sometimes it's really important to find something that holds a little bit more "weight" than just vanity. And right now I think the health, the wellness, the longevity, how do we stand up and support our entire family? I know that I'm working harder than I've ever worked before because I'm carrying everybody's emotions, and cooking three meals a day, I'm cleaning, I'm talking to my husband at the end of the day, I'm working, I'm doing all these things. So, how can I do that if I'm running on fumes, right? So, maybe we just think about that too. And sometimes then we have a double goal, which kind of at the end of the day where I go, "Hey, look at that. Look at me now." Doryn Wallach: Yeah. I have a couple of followers that had asked a question about collagen and I thought it would be a good thing to bring up, because obviously, that's just going on a different topic, but how much collagen should we be consuming? I know there's collagen that you can put in a smoothie, but I don't know if you're supposed to swallow, take a vitamin for collagen, or how important it actually is. Amy Shapiro: Right. Well, collagen, our bodies are made up of it, so it's in our skin, it's in our joints, it's in our muscle fibers and tissues, so it's important because as we age, our collagen tends to break down. So, it is important to consume it. However, the research on consuming collagen to boost collagen is really still much more is needed. So, when I look at collagen, I look at it for a few reasons. One, I look at it for, if you want to see results in your hair, your skin, and your nails, you can't just be a one off, "I'm just going to put collagen in my coffee today." Right? It's got to be a real consistent thing that you do every day to see if you do have growth there. So, it's something that I would recommend if you're going to start doing collagen for results like that, then you want to be very consistent with it. So, I would say a serving a day, which if you're doing a powder form into your smoothies or into your coffee, I would say whatever the serving is of the products you're using. I really like Further Food Collagen. It's very clean, grass-fed, it dissolves very easily into everything, and they have plain, and then they have chocolate and vanilla flavors with very clean ingredients that I think are very easy to incorporate, so one package or one serving size on the container. Then collagen can also be found in supplements, but you tend to have to take way more of them, so like six collagen pills a day to get your your fill. And then you can also get it through bone broth. Bone broth has had a big uptick recently, because when we cook bones for that long, we pull the collagen out of the bones, and then when we consume the broth, we eat that. So, a serving of bone broth every day would be adequate. Collagen has been shown to help heal the gut lining. So, people who have a lot of IBS, or have maybe gluten intolerance, or sensitivities, or have leaky gut syndrome, or they just feel like their guts are off, it's very soothing and healing for the gut. So, that plays a really important role too. So, I would say one serving a day is great. I use collagen. As an example today, I had a really busy morning, and I threw collagen into my coffee, because I knew I didn't have time to eat breakfast, but each serving of collagen provides about seven grams of protein, so that's about the equivalent of what's in the egg. So, therefore, it will help to maintain my hunger, prevent me from getting really hungry, without me having time to make a quick meal, which is great for hormone regulation or somebody who wants to push off... I'm not pushing up breakfast, just enough time, but if you want to push up eating a meal. You can also use collagen just as a source of protein too for you know your appetite. Doryn Wallach: Interesting. I didn't know that. Amy Shapiro: Yeah. So, people will put it into their smoothies instead of a protein powder, as the protein equivalent. The important thing to note is that collagen is not vegan, right? It comes from animals and there is no vegan variety, so if you are plant based or somebody who follows a vegan diet, there are no collagen substitutes currently, so just as an FYI. Doryn Wallach: Okay, good to know. Okay. I have two last questions to ask you. One is, what would be age and quarantine friendly, if you can give, let's say, three easy lunches in quarantine based on available...? Amy Shapiro: What we have available. Okay. Doryn Wallach: [crosstalk 00:44:48] everyone's working and lunch tends to be something you can do pretty quickly and not think too much about, but I'm asking that question because I'm running out of ideas. Amy Shapiro: Yeah, lunch is tough, especially making family lunch. So, I would say a couple things that are super easy. One of my quick hacks for any meal are eggs, right? So eggs, you can keep in your fridge for months at a time. They're a really great complete protein, which means they have all the essential amino acids that we need. They have choline for our brain, they have some vitamin D, which is great for immunity. So, eggs are great because they're an easy protein. So, if you eat eggs, you can quickly fry some eggs and throw it on toast, put it over salad, put it over some roasted vegetables, reheat leftover vegetables and rice from the night before, make a quick bowl, or even if you're in a total pinch, scramble up two or three eggs and call it a meal. They're going to help to fill you up. You can add some cheese into them, you can add some fruits and veggies. They're just like an easy hackable ingredients. So, I think having eggs in your pantry, in your fridge helps you to band aid pretty much any meal if you don't have ideas. And then therefore, I would have scrambled eggs with probably some veggies but I could quickly make my kids french toast and therefore they're having a very balanced carb, balance with protein meal that just seems like a treat. So, that's one thing, always have eggs on hand if you eat eggs. Another thing I would say would be if you have vegetables, that's great. So, you can have fresh vegetables so you can make your own sweet green salad. Look up the recipes, look up what goes into them. Make sure you have those ingredients on hand. I have a lot of clients who miss those sweet greens so much, so you can do that. And then whatever vegetables you have, the one thing you need to totally move the needle on your salad is a good salad dressing, right? You could simply have romaine carrots and cucumber, but if you put on like a really yummy ginger dressing, your salad is amazing. Doryn Wallach: So true. Amy Shapiro: Right? So, make a good salad dressing or buy a good salad dressing and be okay with those calories, be okay with that fat because it's going to elevate your salad. Give them whatever you have. So, I think That's another good one. So, have one good sauce or dressing to elevate whatever quickie you're going to throw together. That's another good one. And then I think there's nothing wrong with making a smoothie for lunch, because your freezer, in my mind, is your new pantry, right? We need to buy extra everything and keep it in our freezer. So, if you buy frozen berries, and you freeze some overripe bananas, and you have some frozen spinach or cauliflower, and you have those chia seeds in your pantry, you can make a very balanced smoothie for lunch that you don't really need or require much time for. You can throw that collagen powder in there. It's a great vehicle from very nutritious foods that you don't know how else to incorporate, right? Like, what else do I do with flax seeds? How do I get my collagen? And how do I get my fruits and vegetables and in one bite that also has sweet flavor? So, making a smoothie I think is another really great hack. And I often will make a smoothie for my family paired with the French toast or the eggs, like it's just breakfast or lunch. So, I think those are some three quick hackable ideas that are balanced, high in all of the phytonutrients and antioxidants that we talked about, full of fiber and good for everybody in the family. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. Amy, you would be mortified at what I'm giving my kids right now, because they have to make their own lunches and it's like pizza bagel, hot pockets... God, hot pockets, which I haven't seen since I was getting Lunchables. It's bad. But you know what, it's easy for [crosstalk 00:48:37]- Amy Shapiro: You know what? It's quarantine, right? Yeah. Don't worry. I have bought the Uncrustables, I have done it. The Smokers Uncrustables are in my freezer. Doryn Wallach: I've been looking for those. Amy Shapiro: And the kids have that with a yogurt and they call it breakfast, they call it lunch sometimes, and that too is okay. And this is a moment in time, and we also have to remember that, right? Hopefully, this is temporary, and so if their lunch sucks, then their dinner is going to be amazing, just like us. If we have one bad meal, we're going to have a better meal next time. And that's just thinking forward a little bit. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. Okay, good. All right. My last question I asked every guest. This is unrelated to nutrition. This is just a general question. What would you tell your 30-something self? Amy Shapiro: Oh, that's a great question. I think I would tell my 30-something else that it gets a little crazier, and crazy is good. Truthfully, I would tell my 30-somethings to enjoy the freedom that I had then and not be so serious. I went back to school in my 30s to become an RD and I had all my kids in my 30s, and I remember being so strict about the food that my oldest son ate, right? I made everything, everything was organic, there were no M&Ms or none of these things, and now looking back, it's like the first play date they go on that you're not there for, all hell breaks loose and they go eating Cinnamon Toast Crunch [crosstalk 00:50:16]- Doryn Wallach: It's so true. Amy Shapiro: ... peanut butter with caramel sauce. So, it's kind of like, don't be so serious. This is all going to flush out in the end, and it gets harder, but it gets better, so just enjoy the moment. I think that's what I kind of would say, even though that was very long-winded. Doryn Wallach: No, I think that's great advice. Okay. And then also, tell everyone where they can find you both on social media or personally if they wanted to. I assume you're doing Zoom consulting right now, if you just want to let everybody know. Amy Shapiro: Yeah. So, I use I use Healthy, which is a HIPAA compliant RD platform for consulting. So, I am at realnutritionnyc.com is my website, and then on Instagram, where I'm the most vocal, is just @realnutrition. So, I can be found in those places. Yeah. Doryn Wallach: Great. Thank you so much for doing my second podcast. Amy Shapiro: Oh my God. Yay. It was awesome. Doryn Wallach: It felt good to do something, and I feel like I haven't done much, so I'm glad we could get this done and get this out, and I'm sure you're going to help a lot of people. I will post all of Amy's information on social media. And Amy, if you would be okay with it, if anybody has any follow up questions, I could forward them along to you and we could [crosstalk 00:51:44]. Amy Shapiro: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Doryn Wallach: Okay, great. Thank you again. Amy Shapiro: Thanks for having me. Doryn Wallach: You're welcome. Be well. Amy Shapiro: You too. Talk soon. Doryn Wallach: Thank you so much for listening today. It really means a lot. I know that most women have incredibly busy schedules and it's not easy to take a little time for yourself and listen to something that's going to help you, but I promise you that you will gain a lot of knowledge and information from this podcast as time goes on. I've created a Facebook page as well as a Facebook group: It's NOT A Crisis Podcast. I also have an Instagram handle: It's Not A Crisis Podcast. I don't think I realized what I was creating when I came up with the idea for this podcast, but as I've grown my following on social media, I realized that there really needs to be a place of community for women in their 40s, or even 50s, that are experiencing much of the same things but maybe a little bit afraid to express other feelings. So, please feel free to keep DMing me and let me know anything that you want to hear on the show, but also reach out. I'm here. I can't always promise I'll get back to you right away, I do have another job, and children, and all the things that we all have, but I appreciate that women feel comfortable enough to reach out to me. If you also want to email me, my email is, itsnotacrisis@gmail.com. Until next time, I am Doryn Wallach, and this has been It's NOT A Crisis.