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EPISODE 28 In this episode I am honored to be joined by author Ada Calhoun. You won't be able to put her book down if you're part of Generation X. In this interview we touch on the specifics of Gen X, why they’re considered ‘the middle child of America’, what defines their dynamics now and we also talk about their marriage, parenting, affairs, singleness and much more. ​ Journalist Ada Calhoun is the author of NYC History St. Marks Is Dead, essay collection Wedding Toasts I'll Never Give, and Gen-X-defining New York Times bestseller Why We Can't Sleep. In addi­tion to writ­ing her own books, Cal­houn is an A‑list ghost­writer, hav­ing col­lab­o­rat­ed on fif­teen major nonfiction books, includ­ing sev­er­al New York Times bestsellers.

EPISODE 27 Welcome back to another episode on relationships where, this time, we talk about boundaries. I’m joined again by Mazi Robinson, who was also a guest on episode 5, and this time she shares her wisdom with us on what boundaries are, how you can set them in different types of relationships, how sometimes lack of reaction is can be a boundary you set and what the role of forgiveness is in our conflicts. Mazi Robinson is a Licensed Professional Counselor in Atlanta specializing in helping women discover their true voice as they navigate women’s issues, healthy relationships, self worth, personal growth and development, leadership development, living with purpose, life stage transitions, and motherhood. She is so wise and insightful and I’m grateful to have her back on the show. You can get in touch with Mazi at mazirobinson.com, cultivateatlanta.com and @cultivateatlanta Also check out the book she mentions: Beyond Boundaries

EPISODE 26 Money is such an important part of our society and lives that you can’t really avoid it. Sooner or later you’ll need to address it with your partner, roommate, sibling etc. In this episode I’m joined by Jenn Uhen as we discuss how to approach discussions about finances, what to do about investments in our 30s and 40s and even about retirement plans. Jenn Uhen heard from many women that they will start investing “someday,” or that growing up they were taught to save their money. They weren’t taught the benefit of “investing in themselves” or investing on their own. Jenn built The Pledgettes to democratize access to financial experts, build a supportive space for women to evolve their relationship with money, and create connections so no woman is going after her personal financial goals alone. ​ You can reach out to Jenn via email at jenn@thepledgettes.com and check out their website at thepledgettes.com

EPISODE 25 Today, we discuss an interesting form of therapy, that has proven effective in dealing with past trauma, among many other things. Natalie Ryan Hebert is joining me, as we dig into what Rapid Transformational Therapy is, how it can help with many of the issues we face as women in our 40’s, including inner child work and mom guilt. Natalie shares the story of her struggles and how her life was changed when she discovered RTT, by stumbling upon Marisa Peer online one day. ​ Rapid Transformational Therapy (RTT) is a super therapy developed and fine-tuned over thirty years by world-renowned therapist Marisa Peer. It combines the most effective principles of Hypnotherapy, NLP, Psychotherapy and Cognitive Behavioral Therapy to bring unparalleled results in one to three sessions. ​ Natalie was one of the first in Denmark to become certified as an RTT Practitioner, trained by Marisa, and she continues ongoing coaching and development with her and her team. She also works closely with a group of Psychologists, coaches and Psychotherapists who all agree this is the most effective method they have ever used or encountered. EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Doryn Wallach: Welcome to It's Not A Crisis. I am your host, Doryn Wallach. I'm an entrepreneur, a mother of two, a wife and a 40 something, trying to figure out, "What is happening in this decade? Why is no one talking about it?" I created this podcast to help women in their late 30s and 40s to figure out what is going on in our mind, body, soul and life. We may laugh. We may cry. We may get frustrated. But most importantly, my goal is to make this next chapter of life positive. I'm also full of my own questions, and I'm here to go on this journey with you. So, let's do it together. Hi, everyone. I cannot believe it's almost February. How did that happen? Don't you feel like March happened and then everything else is fuzzy until then? That's how I feel. Anyway, today's episode, I have a really interesting guest. She does something I've never heard of before. I had to have her on, because not only am I having her talk about what she does, but she has worked with PMDD patients because she had it herself and cured it through this type of therapy. But many other things for women has she cured through this therapy. So, when I contacted Natalie, we had our first conversation. I said, "Okay, here's the deal. I want to interview you before. And then I want to go through this therapy with you. I want to talk about the experience after." So, this is our initial interview. She talks about what she does. And then I'm going to go through the program and hopefully come back a new person after all of this, but you're going to love Natalie. Her voice is so relaxing. You'll understand why she does what she does and maybe get sleepy, but don't fall asleep because then you'll miss the podcast. Natalie Ryan Hebert is a Rapid Transformational Therapy practitioner and coach. What is that? Well, you're going to have to listen to hear a little bit more. She was born in Australia. She now lives in Copenhagen, Denmark with her husband and four kids. Working with clients all over the world via Zoom, Natalie helps people to rewire their minds and in turn change their lives using RTT, a hybrid therapy combining the best of hypnotherapy, parts therapy, inner child work and NLP to bring transformative results. Natalie has worked with all sorts of issues from weight release to money blocks to confidence, fear of flying, quitting smoking, but the area closest to her heart is helping women with premenstrual mood issues, primarily PMDD or premenstrual dysphoric disorder. Hi, Natalie. Welcome to the show. Natalie Ryan Hebert: Hi, Doryn. Doryn Wallach: I am so excited to have you today, Rapid Transformational Therapy. So, you had contacted me through Instagram as I've mentioned before in the intro, but I'm really excited to start doing this process with you. I've never heard of it before. So, I'm glad to have you here giving information about it. I just want to start with, how did you even get started in this? Natalie Ryan Hebert: Well, so I had a psychology degree, which I'd never actually used. I always knew I wanted to go back to therapy. I did a whole singer-songwriter thing. I worked in marketing, did all this other stuff. But I was burning to get back into therapy, I knew that I probably had a real knack for. I'm the one that everyone would talk to in the lunch breaks about all this stuff. Doryn Wallach: That's me. I'm that person. Natalie Ryan Hebert: Yeah, I go, "I shouldn't be in marketing. What am I doing?" So, I always knew I wanted to get into it. So, I came across Marisa Peer, who developed Rapid Transformational Therapy. She's an amazing, very inspiring woman. She's the one that Hollywood calls if they're having problems with their actors. They need to get them sorted out right away so they can get back on set. So, she's the best at what she does really in the world, I think. The results that she gets with this therapy are almost miraculous. You almost can't believe it to start with. She developed this Rapid Transformational Therapy, RTT over 30 years. It combines the most effective principles of hypnotherapy, NLP psychotherapy, the timeline therapy, inner child work. All the best of that is rolled into one. It can clear stuff that you might have been dealing with for years like depression, anxiety, phobias, smoking, addictions- Doryn Wallach: Oh, wow. Natalie Ryan Hebert: ... within one to three sessions. Doryn Wallach: Wow. Natalie Ryan Hebert: Yeah. So, I actually saw a video of hers. And then I went, "Bloody hell. This is unbelievable." And then I just went down this Marisa Peer rabbit hole. You just keep watching more. Doryn Wallach: You just get obsessed with something. Natalie Ryan Hebert: Yeah. I just kept watching her and watching her going, "Okay." And then I discovered that, "Oh, she's actually teaching this therapy. Okay, that's it. This is what I've been waiting for. This is what I'm born for." So, I trained with Marisa and learned her therapy. It's changed my life. Personally, it's changed my life. All the crap that I quit being carrying, that I had been working on for years, doing all the personal growth and the self-help books and the meditation, the yoga and all that stuff just cleared everything in a very short space of time. If anything does come up, if I find I'm triggered by anything now, I go, "Oh, what was that?" I would have just have RTT to sort it out, whether it's money blocks, receiving issues. I mean, it's not just for depression, anxiety, PMDD, things like that. I mean, any blocks. Even as you keep moving up and growing, you think, "Oh, why do I feel a bit scared to do a Facebook Live?", for example, something as basic as that. Well, you've got visibility fears, honey. So, you can have RTT on that. Why am I afraid? So, it's an incredible therapy. Doryn Wallach: Explain exactly what it is, because there's so much out there today that I find it extraordinarily overwhelming, but I am very open minded. Not that this podcast is going to be about PMDD, but I had read that it had really cured your PMDD. So, as I've mentioned before, I have tried everything. I will continue to try anything and everything if it works. So, tell us what RTT exactly is and how it differs from other types. I mean, you just went over it a little bit, but what is the process of RTT? Natalie Ryan Hebert: So, hypnosis is the vehicle, because really, we need to get to the subconscious. You can do all the conscious work you like, but you will not get to, not likely, the real root cause of what's underneath. The best way I can probably explain it is with an example from a client. So, my client, let's call her Maria. She came to me because she said, "I have been trying to lose weight for years. I'm about 40 pounds overweight. I get the first 10 pounds off and then self-sabotage kicks in every time. All my good eating habits go to the dogs. I don't feel like exercising and then all the weight piles back on again." I thought, "Okay, well let's find out what's driving this self-sabotage, because there's a subconscious belief." That's why it's willpower versus subconscious. Doryn Wallach: By the way, when that happens to me, I'm like, "Oh, I'm so skinny. I can eat now." Natalie Ryan Hebert: Yeah, I mean, that's probably part of it that's just in nature that says, "Okay, go and have that cheesecake." But for her, this was an ongoing battle. She thought, "I want to lose this weight." Willpower wanted to lose the weight. Consciously, she wanted to be 20 kilos lighter. Her subconscious said, "That isn't happening, sister." So, she went, "Okay, why? What is this?" She said to me, "Look, I think I know what it is." I said, "Oh, yes. What do you think it is?" She said, "Well, I think it's because my mum was really jealous of my figure when I was younger." I said, "Yeah, it's not that." She goes, "What do you mean it's not that?" I said, "Well, you're aware of that, Maria. So, if it were that, you would have fixed it by now, wouldn't you?" She goes, "I'm not a teenager anymore. I don't care what my mom thinks now." She goes, "Oh, gosh." She goes, "Well, what can it be?" I said, "Well, we'll find out, won't we?" So, the process is I put her into hypnosis, which is very easy. It's just a light. It's a light hypnosis. You're in control. You could open your eyes at any time if you really wanted to. I take it back to three to four scenes from her life that have everything to do with the route, the cause and the reason for why you are sabotaging your weight loss efforts. Every scene she went back to and the subconscious will just pop the scene onto the screen of your mind. I said, "Okay, where are you?" I'm at home. How old are you? I'm five. What's happening here? My dad's taking pictures of me in my swimsuit. Okay, how are you feeling? Uncomfortable. So, the same goes on. Nothing bad's happening in particular, but it's just like, "He seems to think I'm too attractive. I don't like the way my dad is looking at me and taking pictures of me." So that's the first thing. Next thing, she wins a trophy in swimming. A granddad says to her, "Oh, Maria, would you give me a picture of you in your swimmers holding the trophy, so I can put up a memento piece?" Again, she gets the same feeling of, "Ew, I don't like this attention I'm getting for my body. I don't want him to be looking at me in my swimmers." Third scene, she's at a family birthday party. There's some "uncle" in inverted commas there, some friend of the family, some old guy. Oh, come on, Maria. Come and sit up on Uncle Harry's knee. She's like, "I don't want to." Her dad's going, "Go on, go on. Go sit on Harry's knee. Go on." So, she's six years old. She goes over and she doesn't want to. She doesn't like it. He's touching her thigh, going, "Oh, you're a lovely little girl, aren't you?" Nothing all that bad happens, but again, it's this feeling of, "Ugh, I don't like the attention I'm getting for my body." So of course, our clever little subconscious says, "Well, I know, if we make sure that if you're not too slim and you're not too attractive, you won't get that unwanted attention, will you?" That's what was underneath. Doryn Wallach: She wasn't aware of that at all until you- Natalie Ryan Hebert: She wasn't in the slightest way aware of it. So, then we have to undo it. That's the next part of the process where she has her adult self goes back to little Maria and says, "Listen, honey. When you're older, this won't feel this way. You know that you're not in danger. You're safe. I've got you and I'm always going to look after you. I'm always going to protect you. I won't let anyone come near you who you don't feel safe with. So, you're completely safe. You can run around in your swimmers. You can be slim and beautiful and gorgeous. I want that for you." So, she has a pep talk with her younger self. It's like going back in a time machine and fixing everything back in time psychologically in your mind. So, that you don't have that belief. You undo it. And then she also is able to remove the part that is running that sabotage and say, "Listen, I don't need you. Thanks for your help, but I want to look hot in my bikini. I'm 47. My dad, he's welcome to pervert me all day long. I don't care," right? There's a difference. So, then it's like shift, and her mind changes. When she comes out of that hypnosis, she's got a new set of beliefs. And then her behavior changes, because the beliefs run the behavior. Doryn Wallach: So, I can't even meditate. I barely can focus. My head is all over the place. So, anytime I've heard about hypnosis and I'm sure somebody else is thinking this, I'm like, "Yeah, yeah, whatever. There's no way anyone could ever make me get to that place, because I'm typically somewhat anxious and my mind is processing." Is that a common fear of your patients? Natalie Ryan Hebert: Yeah, definitely. I work with a lot of women who have PMDD. Anxiety is a huge part of that. So, I'm used to having clients come to me and they're like, "Oh, what if it doesn't work?" I say, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, listen to me now." But I can't visualize. I go, "Okay. Do you know the way back down to the front door?" They say, "Yeah." I go, "How do you know that? Because you're seeing it, aren't you?" Oh, yeah. Yeah, actually. I think the thing that people are afraid of with hypnosis is they think they're going to lose control. They have this idea of this stage hypnotist making them and turning them into a chicken. Doryn Wallach: All right. Well, I think that's my other thing. I'm a control freak. Natalie Ryan Hebert: I think that's the thing, I'm not going to be able to let go. So, look, all hypnosis is self-hypnosis for the first thing. Second thing is you cannot do anything, unless you want to do it. Even people who get up on stage and act like chickens, they're chosen because they are up for it. The stage hypnotist knows that. It's like if I said to you, "Look, from tomorrow, you're going to dye your hair green," but you're not going to because you don't want that. Your mind works for you. You're the gatekeeper. So, you're going to be able to say, "Actually, I don't want that." The hypnosis won't work. The suggestions will not work unless you want what I'm telling you that you want. So, if I say you are confident, you are amazing, you feel so great, you're not going to go, "Well, I don't want that." You're going to go, "Yes, please. Bring it on." And then you are the one commanding your subconscious mind saying, "Are you listening? Listen to that. That's what I want. That's what I insist upon for myself now." So, all the power is with you. I think it's important to let my clients know that you are the one in control here. I'm just a humble facilitator, helping your subconscious and conscious mind have a little chat. So, that you can upgrade your operating system. But I'm not programming you. You are and you're the only one who can. So, that tends to help people to say, "Okay, yeah, I want that. I want to let go and I want to have this experience." I think you can resist me if you want to and it's not going to work; or you can just go with it and then it will work. Just let go and it will work. Doryn Wallach: Do you find that this is working better now for women over 40? Because I think we are at that age where we're letting go of a lot of stuff and we're becoming more open minded as we get older. Natalie Ryan Hebert: I think the reason that so many of my clients are 30s, 40s is because it's taken that long to work out that they have PMDD for one thing. Women go undiagnosed for years with it. Yeah, there is that readiness to heal. That's another thing. There are four stages of readiness to healing. It begins with victimhood and ends with, "I am willing to do whatever it takes." That's where I want my clients to be. I don't want to drag them out of victimhood. I don't want to force or try and drag a horse to water and make it drink. That's not what I want to do. You're the power. I'm there to help you use that power. Thirties and 40s is when a woman starts to go, "I'm ready. I got to sort this out. I do not want the next half of my life to be carrying all this baggage." Doryn Wallach: Yes, the whole point of my podcast. Exactly. Natalie Ryan Hebert: Yeah. Doryn Wallach: Can you talk us through what happens in a typical RTT session? I know, you went over it a little bit, but a little bit more in detail. Natalie Ryan Hebert: So, it starts with the induction. So, basically, we create rapid eye movement. That actually induces an alpha brainwave state. It's a bit of a brain hack, I suppose. Because when the eyes are up, your brain thinks, "Oh, oh, Doryn's about to start dreaming." No, you're just not, but the brain thinks, "Well, the eyes are doing REM." So, now, the brain is going to move to an alpha brainwave state. It's a slower, more suggestible brainwave state. It's actually the brainwave state that children are in up until about the age of seven. That's why they are so suggestible little sponges. They learn languages really easily. So, that's where we need to get you back to. So, you can edit the program that you laid down in your first seven years of life. So, I put you into hypnosis, walk you down some stairs. And then we test for suggestibility. I have a few little tests to see that your subconscious is responding the way we need it to. Doryn Wallach: Then what do you do? What are those tests? Natalie Ryan Hebert: I tell you, you've got a really heavy bucket in your hand full of wet sand and then your arm feels like it's made of lead. It'll start getting pulled down. You're like, "Whoa." So, your eyelids are sealed shut. They're locked tight. They're closed together. You can try to open them, but you're going to find their seals are shut. They are too, I can't even open them. So, because the subconscious is believing. Or I'll tell you, you've just taken a bite of a lemon. Now, your mouth is filling with saliva, because there's a lemon and your mouth does fill with saliva. So, it's just testing that the subconscious is listening to the suggestions and responding. And then we regress back to three scenes, where we go through and I find, "Okay, what's the belief being formed here?" And then it becomes pretty clear. Then I get you to say, "Right, here's your life today. You got this problem here. Here are the scenes that your subconscious brought to you to tell you here's why. Now put that together. What do you understand?" Client understands that. Of course, the subconscious is right there to help them. I do lots of other things. If someone's done something wrong to you or a parent or anyone in your life who's hurt you, there's dialoguing with the hurt that we do. So, you can really release a lot of stuff that you may never get to say. Sometimes I've had clients whose parents have passed on, and they've never got to have this conversation. They can have that in hypnosis. It's very healing. What else do we do? Upgrading the child's mind; going back as the adult self; talking to that little child; saying, "I'm becoming a loving parent to you now. I know just how to meet your needs. Listen, I know you thought you weren't good enough when this happened, but you are good enough. You've always been good enough." So, having that talk with your younger self, bringing your younger self back to where you are now, saying, "Look how different everything is. Look at all the food in the fridge. We buy that for ourselves now. You have the control now. Look at all the clothes in the cupboard. They're all yours that you've bought." Showing the child that you do have power now. You're not the dependent child who you used to be. You end up growing up to be strong and independent. And then at the end of all of the upgrading and the releasing and the dialoguing, then I create a recording. That's called the transformation. All that's in it is just a whole lot of awesome positive suggestions, because the mind rewires through repetition. Neural pathways for neuroplasticity is that the neurons that fire together wire together. So, we fire a thought when I give you a suggestion. I'm telling you, "You feel amazing. You feel alive. You feel confident." I give scenarios of what that would look like. You're visualizing that. Your mind's moving towards it. It starts to wire that in as your reality, and then you listen to the recording for 30 days. That's RTT, yeah, the best explanation I can give of it without you actually having this. Doryn Wallach: No, that was a great explanation. What happens if somebody doesn't come up with something? What do you do then? Natalie Ryan Hebert: I've got all sorts of tricks. Doryn Wallach: Okay. Okay, that's good. Natalie Ryan Hebert: Yeah. Yeah, I can take them back to the bedroom that they were in when they were a child. I can have a talk to that child. Gosh, that just so rarely ever happens that something doesn't come. Maybe 1 in 100 clients or something where nothing comes. And then I say, "Okay, you know what? You're going to have a primary recording to listen to. You're have a little practice with that for a week. We're going to come back, and we're going to try again." It's going to go great the next time. And then it usually goes great the second time. Doryn Wallach: I want to ask you about sleep, because I can't explain my sleep situation. I can fall asleep. I do wake up a couple of times. I can go back to sleep. I have vivid, vivid dreams that I have my whole life. I've never woken up feeling rested. I've tried everything under the moon for that. Is this something that RTT can help with? Natalie Ryan Hebert: Yeah, sure. Because anything that you're basically just like, "I don't want this," but the behavior is there. Consciously, I just want to sleep through the night, but something inside of me thinks it's important or necessary for me to be hyper vigilant all night long. Why is that there? Well, you don't know why, but your subconscious does, because it's running it. So, that's what I would say. We're going to go back now to the root, the cause and the reason for why you wake up during the night. And then your mind will go, "Oh, sure. I'll tell you why I'm doing that." It'll take you back to why that's an issue. It'll be different for everybody, but there's something there that it thinks it's protecting you. It's always about protection, keeping you safe. Doryn Wallach: You just triggered something, which is really funny. It's not that funny. My parents got divorced when I was nine, but my dad snored a lot. My room was right near my parents. All night long, I could hear my mom going, "Larry, stop snoring. Stop snoring." That would keep me up, because I would hear her doing that all night. Now, I'm starting to understand what you're talking about, because that randomly popped in my head. I haven't thought about that in years. Natalie Ryan Hebert: Exactly, because your subconscious is always on. You don't necessarily have to be in hypnosis to have the subconscious pop up with a clue. Doryn Wallach: Right, right. Natalie Ryan Hebert: In the program I have for PMDD, I teach a process that you can do for yourself to give yourself a little Rapid Transformational Therapy. What's triggered this? What's the feeling? Where do I know this feeling from? You'll just be talking about that. Your mind did it. It probably has something to do with that, where you sense your mom's agitation and then you became hyper vigilant going, "Oh, I hope dad doesn't snore, because then mom's going to get upset." So, you as a baby started to switch on, trying to make sure that their relationship would be okay. Because if their relationship isn't okay, then I'm not okay. So, there was a hypervigilance that came in the night that could be around your dad snoring. It could easily be about that. It could also be something else that your subconscious will show you in the session. And then you go, "Oh, that's why." And then you realize, "Well, I'm not that nine year old girl. I don't live with my parents anymore." Doryn Wallach: Now, I just live with my husband who snores. Natalie Ryan Hebert: Yeah, well, our history repeats, doesn't it? Doryn Wallach: Right, exactly. Natalie Ryan Hebert: Yeah. I guess yeah, there is also a little bit of that that we carry down things and we repeat things too. Doryn Wallach: Oh, for sure. So, I know that for you, this cured your PMDD. I've done quite a few episodes on PMDD now. Explain exactly how it helped you. What were you like before doing the therapy and what were you like after? Natalie Ryan Hebert: I would just make mountains out of molehills and feel I was completely right about it. Get very, very upset, get very, very angry. Just drama, drama, drama, drama. And then my period would come and then I go, "Oh, well, that wasn't over. Why was I even upset?" I couldn't get in the same mindset. I was like, "I cannot understand why I made such a big deal out of that." It was just such magnification of the smallest things. Do you want to hear what I now understand about PMDD? This is what PMDD is, according to me in my humble yet very experienced opinion. PMDD is a hormonal shift. There's three things that create PMDD. These are the three things, hormonal shift, unresolved trauma, and higher than usual sensitivity. If you have all three, then good chances, you're going to experience premenstrual dysphoria. Doryn Wallach: Check, check, check. Natalie Ryan Hebert: Check, check, check. You've got them all. So many of my clients are nurses, artists, yoga instructors, ridiculously, so many. They're all creative, empathetic beings, therapists, nurses, primary school teachers, artists, like yourself. You do jewelry design that requires creativity. So, creative empathic women who have a cycle because the hormonal shift dropped it. The estrogen just goes, "Bye-bye. That's the accommodating hormone. Once the estrogen goes and the progesterone peaks, now you've got truth serum. Anything that's been stuck below the surface before is now right at the surface. I use a lot of metaphors. It's like a box of pain opens up that's just usually hidden to you, but the box of pain opens up. It's like a magnifying glass goes on top of that. That's all you can see and feel. You can go and take antidepressants if you want. That will dampen the sensitivity. So, that's one way. You can just get rid of your monthly cycle, have a hysterectomy, and get rid of it that way. Or option three, which is what I do, you can heal the trauma that's being triggered every single month. Because if you look at what's triggered and if you sit with it, what's actually happening is your childhood wounds are being pushed upon. That's definitely true for me when I look at what I'm angry about and what meaning I'm assigning to, for example, my husband's actions. Oh, he's late. He hasn't even texted to tell me he's going to be late. Well, that can only mean he doesn't even care about me. No, it could mean 100 other things, but I'm focusing on the one that's going to hurt me the most. That's pointing to my wound. That's what I work with women on. What story are you telling yourself about what this means? Because that is a direct link to where you are wounded. You're not upset about your husband being late. You're upset because you think he doesn't care about you. You think he doesn't care about you, because your dad didn't care about you and your parents divorced. He left and he didn't call for six months. That's why you're so upset right now. That's what we need to heal. Not that your husband didn't text you, whatever. It's nothing. It's the wound and there's a grain of salt hit the wound. Now, you're getting angry at the person who threw the grain of salt. No, the wound is the problem. That's what we're here with RTT. Doryn Wallach: I'm actually really happy that you bring this up, because I think that there are women who don't want to get to the root, cause of some of their anxiety, depression. I had actually interviewed my doctor who's a reproductive psychiatrist. I had asked him, is trauma commonly found in women with PMDD? He said, "Absolutely, we've definitely found a link to that." Until maybe two years ago, I never did my real inner child work and therapy. I was very, "Whatever." Natalie Ryan Hebert: It's all right. It's a long time ago. Doryn Wallach: Right, I'm the type of person that's like, "It's in the past. I'm just going to ignore it," which is the worst thing you could do. I mean, it's intense when you start going into it, because you get to a point where you're like, "I don't want to think about this anymore. Do this." However, it does heal you in ways and help you move forward from things. So, I love that that's part of this. I think it's a really important thing. Everybody should do it. Also, by the way, it makes me very nervous as a mom that I'm screwing my kids up and then they're going to be doing inner child work, which they will be. Natalie Ryan Hebert: That's right. You have to say, "Darling, you're going to have to become the loving parent to yourself eventually, one day." Yes. The other thing, Doryn, is the things that you think, "Oh, gosh, I'm sure I've messed them up from that," that's probably the thing that's not messing them up. The thing that is going to mess them up is some interpretation they make, which is completely out of your control. So, look, we do our best. That's all we can do. We can say to our children, "Honey, guess what? I'm not perfect." The best thing you can say to your child is, "I'm not perfect." Doryn Wallach: I say it all the time. Natalie Ryan Hebert: Yeah, I do, too. Doryn Wallach: I tell them it's not a word. There's no such thing as perfection. It's funny this morning, I said to my son... He was watching Pokémon. The mom said, "You know what? Being a mom is the hardest job in the world or something." He goes, "Mommy, she said being a mom is hardest job in the world." I said, "Yeah, it is. It's pretty hard." I said, "Most nights I go to bed feeling like I failed you guys or I did something that may affect you." He looked at me very confused. He's like, "You're a great mom." Natalie Ryan Hebert: That's right now. Doryn Wallach: Right, but my kids have never... I hate to say this. They don't often tell me I'm a great mom. It's not that they're like, "You're the best mom." I don't hear that often. So, to hear that today was like "Oh, okay, that's good." Natalie Ryan Hebert: Yeah, yeah, something about mum guilt, I think, is so important. Don't we all have it? Here's something I've learned about mum guilt. I had a friend. She's a singer. She had to work a lot of nights, I mean, a few nights a week. She felt such guilt about this. So, I remember seeing her one day talk to her daughter. She was so full of guilt. She's saying, "I'm so sorry, darling. But yeah, I've got to go out tonight and I've got to sing tonight." The thing is her daughter was probably not going to think anything of it, but the child looks to the mother. When the mother's saying, "I feel so bad about this," the child says, "Oh, is this really bad? Is it? You're doing something awful to me, aren't you?" Now, the child's going to think something's wrong, because the mother is modeling, there's something wrong. I spoke to her and said, "You're such a great mom." There are plenty of moms... I have to start work earlier in the morning. I have to have my child in after school club, because I don't finish work until later, but you, you get to have breakfast with her. You get to pick her up right when school finishes. You have all afternoon together. Because you work in the evenings, you have so much more time with her. She goes, "Well, I didn't think of it like that." I said, "That's how you present it to her and say, 'We're so lucky. We're so lucky. Because mommy sings at nighttime, we get all this other time that other children don't get with their mommies.' Now, she's going to feel good about you going out and singing and how different that is." We can maybe convince ourselves if I just feel guilty enough, I'm controlling or undoing the hurt, but actually you're creating it. Doryn Wallach: No, I do. I mean, I'm sitting here with my mouth open. It's amazing and how have I never thought of it before. You think about all this. I mean, I'm like, "Oh, God. I've said things like that so many times." Natalie Ryan Hebert: Yeah, the mum guilt, it's you're telling them something. They would otherwise have gone, "Oh, I'm fine." I remember being a kid. My mom was working a lot. We owned a kindergarten actually. We had our house upstairs and the kindergarten downstairs. My mom was so stressed. She was working her butt off down there in this kindergarten. It was killing her. She's like, "Oh, God." The mom guilt was eating her up. I don't remember feeling neglected at all. I loved it. We were down there playing with all the other kids in the kindergarten. I got to use all the crafts things and the pencils and the glue and the paper. Meanwhile, my mom was eating herself up inside mum guilt thinking we were being neglected. That were some of the best times in my life, I remember when we lived in that kindergarten. She goes, "Oh, my gosh. I felt so guilty." I said, "Oh, you didn't need to do that. I didn't feel the least bit of neglect at all." But had she said to me, "I'm so sorry, darling. Oh, I know, I'm not there for you." I'd be like, "Oh, aren't you? Oh, gosh. Yeah, this is bad, isn't it?" But I was completely oblivious otherwise. So, yeah, mom guilt. Doryn Wallach: This is so, so, so great that you're talking about this, because last night in our Instagram Live, a couple of women were responding to mom guilt and how awful it is. I said, "Oh, that's a podcast idea. We need to talk more about guilt." So, I think that's a beautiful way to look at it. Just with that little piece of advice, you could change a lot of women's mothering. I wish I hadn't just heard that from you when I have a 13 year old. It's too late. Natalie Ryan Hebert: I know. I've got four kids. If I knew back on child number one what I knew by child number four, things would be a lot better. I wish I could go back with what I know, but that's life. We just learn as we go along. Doryn Wallach: Right. I think that's a good thing to hear out loud, because I think if anyone is listening with younger kids, I think it's part of being human, right? Exactly what we just said, we're not perfect. We're learning. I think the only thing that we can teach our kids one day is that "Listen, life is a lesson. We learn things as we went along." So, I'm glad you said that. I'm glad you have four kids to make the rest of us feel better. I'm only screwing up two. Natalie Ryan Hebert: Yeah. Doryn Wallach: I think we got a little off track about the session, because I knew that we went through the hypnosis process. What comes after that? Natalie Ryan Hebert: Oh, well, then I do the transformation at the end, which I was talking about, which is all just the positive stuff. I've made that as a recording. And then you listen to the recording for 30 days to solidify. So, yeah, that's everything. And then we will follow up. Doryn Wallach: Every day for 30 days? Natalie Ryan Hebert: Every day for 30 days, because the mind learns by repetition. So, the more you hear the same thing over and over, your mind says, "Oh, okay, I may as well wire this in, save you saying it all the time." It's a bit like riding a bike. To start with, you have to concentrate on where I put my feet on the pedals, but then it becomes automatic. That's what we want to do with the thoughts that I'm good enough, right? You want that to be your automatic wired in setting. Doryn Wallach: Do you remember there was an old Saturday Night Live... I don't know if you watched Saturday Night Live. Natalie Ryan Hebert: I'm going to say it depends, because I didn't watch all of it. Yeah. Doryn Wallach: There was this character. I forget, it was something handy or something. He used to go, "You're good enough. You're smart enough." Gosh, darn it, people like you or something like that. He used to say it in the mirror over and over again. Natalie Ryan Hebert: Affirmations, yeah. Doryn Wallach: Using affirmation, God, I don't remember what the character's name, but it's actually funny. There's truth in that, into hearing something over and over again. Just the way you hear something negative over and over again, you're going to start to believe it as well. Natalie Ryan Hebert: Oh, yeah. Most people's thoughts are negative all day long, playing that old record over and over and over again in the background. We're maintaining the wiring with the negative thinking. So, that's why it's important to have this recording to come and undo that, because the mind can't hold two conflicting beliefs. That's another rule of the mind that we work with, with RTT, that if you've got a belief that says, "I'm not good enough," and then a recording comes in everyday and says, "You are worthy. You are lovable. You are enough," over and over and over again, the mind starts going, "Cannot compute, which one is it? Because I'm hearing them both." It will keep the one that it hears the most. So, that's why it's important. There's a really good video, Joe Dispenza's TED talk that shows this actually, the neural pathways and exactly what happens. Once you see that, you just go, "Oh, my gosh. Mind blown, I can actually change my brain." You'll understand why RTT works the way it does that you really are rewiring your brain. And then once you've rewired it, it works better for you. Doryn Wallach: What's been your most successful outcome with a client? Is there one that sticks out in your mind? Natalie Ryan Hebert: There's so many, I'm just going to pick one. This is a PMDD client. She'd attempted suicide several times. She was on medication, quite strong medication. She'd been seeing her psychiatrist for two years. She was on the waiting list for a hysterectomy. She came to me saying, "This is my last hope before I have my uterus and ovaries removed." So, she was really ready to do what it took, which isn't that much. RTT is a good experience. It's not like I'm dragging you over hot coals. This is a good experience. But she did have to go back and revisit and heal some heavy stuff from her past. There was sexual abuse. There's quite a lot of that I find in my clients. The more I've done this work, I've thought, "Damn it. It's rife, isn't it?" This whole #MeToo Movement, I see why it's there, because it's a problem. So, we did a lot of healing work. I mean, the moment for me, where I just got goosebumps and tears, was she sent me a message from Disneyland. She sent a picture of her with her husband and her daughter. She said, "This time last year, my family went to Disneyland without me, because I was in hospital after attempting suicide. Here I am now. We're having the best time. I'm due in my period any day and I just feel great. I just feel like my best self." Her whole life changed. She's gone on to study a master's in psychology. She's going to be a therapist herself by next year. She's up out of bed every day 6:00 AM with her daughter. She couldn't get out of bed for weeks at a time sometimes. That's completely finished. She's just healed all of the stuff that was creating all these issues. She doesn't have PMDD. She doesn't consider herself to have PMDD anymore. Her psychiatrist went, "I do not understand what just happened here." She's not on any medication at all. She's just healed. She's a healed woman. Doryn Wallach: When do you make that transition? Natalie Ryan Hebert: Well, I think you could feel it in yourself. Of course, I don't say, "Right, go off your medication." That's not my job and I would never. That's a choice between her and her psychiatrist. But he said, "Oh, my. I can see that you physically look like a different person. Okay, well, let's taper it off. Let's see. If you're feeling confident, let's taper it off." So, that's what she did. She just tapered off under his instructions. Now, she doesn't have any medication. Her marriage too was hanging on by a thread. Now, we're Facebook friends. I mean, of course everyone's Facebook looks amazing. Doryn Wallach: I'm not on there for that reason. I got over it many years ago. Natalie Ryan Hebert: I can see how things have really, really shifted for their relationship to. They're out on date nights. You can just say things are really good for them. So, that's an amazing story, but yeah, there's just lots and lots of them. It's an amazing job. Doryn Wallach: Well, I am grateful to you for doing what you're doing and helping women, especially the women that do have PMDD. I know that's just one thing that you treat, but thank you for dedicating your time to doing this, because it's something I actually never heard about. I'm very excited to get started when we do. I mean, at this point right now, I'm on birth control. I'm on antidepressants. I take something for sleep, but I don't want to be on any of those. This is the first time in my life, where I've allowed to get on all of these things. So, I am a good candidate for you. Natalie Ryan Hebert: Yeah, I'm excited to start our work together. Yeah, it's going to be fascinating. You're going to find it fascinating because I do. It's new. Even though it's the same therapy every day, it's a different story all the time, because everyone's life story is different. What's the puzzle that we need to put together? It's so fascinating and fun and emotional and beautiful. Doryn Wallach: For sure. Natalie Ryan Hebert: But no, I mean, I have to do this work, because I know the pain of it. I thought it was the worst suffering. It is hell week, it is. I couldn't just keep it to myself. I had to share my story. I have to share other women's stories and keep spreading this message that it's not a life sentence until menopause. You don't need to have a hysterectomy. You don't need to stay on strong antidepressants. There is another way too. I want to give women that hope. You got to be ready for it. Like I said, there are stages of readiness. I certainly went through a stage where I just wanted to say, "No, I've got PMDD. That's why. The diagnosis explains everything. That's my get out of overreactions free card." But in the end, my husband said, "You're going to have to master this." I felt like, "You try mastering it. It's so hard," but he was right. That was a turning point for me when I realized, "Well, no one's coming to save me. It's going to have to be me." And then when the student was ready, the teacher appeared in the form of Marisa Peer in a YouTube ad before. I didn't press skip. All because I didn't press skip ad, like I usually would have done, the rest of my life has completely changed. So, you never know how you're going to stumble across what you need. Doryn Wallach: That's wonderful. Thank you so much for coming on and explaining this. Obviously, after we've done our work together, you are going to come back. Natalie Ryan Hebert: Yeah. And then we can interview you and say, "Okay, Doryn." Doryn Wallach: How about you interview me? Yeah, we're going to have to reverse the interview. You're right. Natalie Ryan Hebert: No, you can tell us all about it and hear it from the client side. So, that'll be really interesting to hear. Doryn Wallach: Okay, where can everyone find you? Natalie Ryan Hebert: So, I'm on Instagram on @natalieryanhebert. So, Hebert is H-E-B-E-R-T. It's not Herbert, which everybody spells it that way, even my bank. It's H-E-B-E-R-T, Natalie Ryan Hebert. I've got a website, natalieryanhebert.com. I'm on Facebook. I have The Red Tent program. If you search The Red Tent for PMDD, you'll find me. I'm on the internet. Yeah. Doryn Wallach: I'm pretty sure you're there. And then I will have everything on my website. I just launched a new website, which is nice and organized. We'll also have it in the show notes. So, thank you very much again. I'm looking forward to our follow-up podcast. Natalie Ryan Hebert: Wonderful. Thanks so much, Doryn. Doryn Wallach: Okay. Have a good day. Natalie Ryan Hebert: You, too. Doryn Wallach: Until next time. Thank you for joining me once again for another episode. We'll have a lot more exciting things coming up. Keep your comments and messages coming to me about what you want to hear more about, because that helps me to find the best guests and make the best episodes. Thank you so much for listening. Remember to give yourself permission and know that you are not alone. Don't forget to subscribe, so you don't miss any episodes. Reviews are always appreciated. You can reach me by email at itsnotacrisis@gmail, Instagram, @ItsNotACrisisPodcast. Please join our Facebook group as well. Until next time. Just remember, it's not a crisis.

EPISODE 24 In this episode, I am joined by Laura Murphy, who is a Director of Education and Awareness at IAPMD - International Association for Premenstrual Disorders. Laura has been kind enough to share her story of struggling with PMDD for 17 years until she was diagnosed. She has been through dark times, like many of you may be experiencing even now, but her story is one of positivity, support and a newfound passion to help other women. We touch more on PMDD, PME (Premenstrual Exacerbation) and PMS and how they affect lives in different ways. ​ IAPMD is a great resource for women going through PMDD - a resource that has helped me a lot through my journey. I knew I wanted to share this with as many women as I can, so I invited Laura on the show. IAPMD was founded in 2013 as the National Association for Premenstrual Dysphoric Disorder by Amanda LaFleur and Sandi MacDonald. Their mission is to inspire hope and end suffering for those affected by premenstrual disorders through peer support, education, research and advocacy. They have programs that you can be a part of, as well as many support groups and other amazing resources. ​ Check them out at iapmd.org EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Doryn Wallach: Welcome to It's Not A Crisis. I am your host Doryn Wallach. I'm an entrepreneur, a mother of two, a wife and a 40 something, trying to figure out what is happening in this decade. Why is no one talking about it? I created this podcast to help women in their late thirties and forties to figure out what is going on in our mind, body, soul, and life. We may laugh. We may cry. We may get frustrated, but most importantly, my goal is to make this next chapter of life positive. I'm also full of my own questions. And I'm here to go on this journey with you. So let's do it together. Hey everyone. Thank you for joining me today. I am always grateful that people are out there listening to me gab away. So thank you for being here. Today's guest is Laura Murphy, who is the director of education and awareness for IAPMD, which I was so grateful to find that is the international Association for Premenstrual Disorders. She lived for 17 years undiagnosed with PMDD, and is now passionate about raising awareness and standards of care for those with PMD, D, PMDs, I guess there are a couple. Anyway, I had such a huge response when I came out and talked about my PMDD, and then I had my episode with Dr. Cohen and I got even more emails from all of you. And I was kind of blown away by it. To be honest, I felt really alone and I felt alone honestly, until I discovered IAPMD. And as soon as I have time, I am going to help them raise awareness. That is on my list of things to do, but it's a wonderful, wonderful organization. And Laura has had the experience and now works to advocate for PMDD, for women. So I think you'll find this interview really interesting. I do have to tell you, in the middle of the interview, her husband fell off a roof and he was fine. Totally fine. But there were a few distractions and Laura held it together and we finished the podcast. So if you feel that there's some choppy parts, that may be why, but my wonderful editor usually can put this together. And so you won't even know, but thankfully Laura's husband is okay. Hi, everyone. Welcome to another episode today. We're talking again about hormones, but I promise you that with each of these episodes, there's a reason that we're doing that. We're touching on different of hormones, and I'm very excited today to welcome Laura Murphy to the show. Welcome Laura. Laura Murphy: Hi, thank you for having me. Doryn Wallach: I'm so happy that you decided to come on. And I want to let you know that I discovered the IAPMD organization from Facebook groups, a very desperate time. I was looking for support and group support and I started to follow the group and then I followed you guys on Instagram and I was so relieved to learn that there was something being done about PMDD, because I think a lot of people aren't even aware that it's a thing. So, at first I want to just go dive in a little bit and tell me about your own journey with PMDD and what got you involved in this. Laura Murphy: Yeah, sure, no problem. So my PMDD, I now know, started when I was around 17 years old. I'm now 41. I took the contraceptive pill for 21 days. And on the 21st day, when you switched to the sugar pills, I just had this almighty drop and was having panic attacks for the first time I was hyperventilating. I went into very deep depression for about six months. And from then on and for the next few years, it was longer periods of depression, panic attacks. I was diagnosed with panic disorder. I knew I got really bad PMS and I knew that something was up, but I thought it was more a personality flaw than anything else, really, in my twenties, it became a bit more pronounced. I remember my ex partner saying to me it's like different with living with a different person for one week a month and still the penny didn't really drop. I honestly just thought I had bad PMS and I was just a really bad person. I couldn't control this rage. It was kind of happening. And I still didn't quite pin it to the cycle. It's really strange how looking back that it didn't occur to me. Doryn Wallach: By the way, you're not alone. Do you know how many women will be like, I'm acting crazy this week and I don't know what's wrong with me. And then I'm like, and I'll say, are you getting your period? And they'll say, Oh yeah. I mean, these are women in their forties who have been getting their periods since they were 12 or 13. Laura Murphy: And I think if your period. You know, my periods was all fairly normal, whatever that is. But they came when I took pain painkillers, the actual sort of period was nothing out of the ordinary. I didn't have severe pain or anything it wasn't fun, but it was okay. So they just kind of came and went and I didn't kind of patch it together. It was in my thirties when I had the Miriena coil fitted, it was kind of forced on me really. And for the first couple of years it was kind of, okay. And then I just had an almighty crash and was suicidal actually for about 18 months. I was very poorly. I began to experience anxiety, which I've never had. I've had panic attacks before, but I've never had anxiety. And yeah, I was on nerve numbing medication. I was waking up every morning shaking and I was going to the doctor and she was saying, no it can't go into your bloodstream. It's very localized. There's no way this can happen. So again, I just thought it was me. I thought I was depressed because I was in my thirties and I'd never really got anywhere. Career-wise and I just happened to live back with my parents because I wasn't very well all the time. And it was only through, I'm going to see a counselor, actually, she's the one that picked up on it. My doctor, I saw her and she said it's just PMS, something everyone has, you just has to learn to live with it. And it was my counselor and therapist through seeing her that she said I'm seeing you every month and this isn't just PMS. And you know, I went home and I go on Dr. Google and I found out about PMDD and that we call it the light bulb moment. And I began reading about PMDD. And like you say, I joined some Facebook support groups. And through there, it's kind of where this sort of learning journey started reading. Doryn Wallach: I've already covered this on other podcasts, but can you give a quick definition of what PMDD really is compared to PMS? Laura Murphy: Yes, sure. So PMDD stands for Premenstrual Dysphoric Disorder. It's a hormone based mood disorder, which affects around one in 20 women. And those who are assigned female at birth it's essentially a severe form of PMS, but the two can't really be compared PMDD is life disrupting by definition. It interrupts and interferes with your work home education and relationships. It's different for everybody. People do have different timeframes and the way it affects them. So it only affects people in the luteal phase. So that means from between ovulation until around the time of your period. So some people suffer for the whole two weeks a month. Some people, it might be longer if they have more regular periods or a longer cycle, but there is always a symptom-free patch after your period until you next ovulate, it's a spectrum disorder. So some people have mild symptoms, some people have moderate and some have severe. Doryn Wallach: I want to go back to your story too, before we get into talking a little bit about IPMD, which is the organization that you're involved with. Before I get to that, I just wanted to say that I was so glad to hear what your description just now, because I was never able to explain it to friends or family, because I typically start feeling really bad around ovulation, like four days around ovulation and then get maybe a few days off and then PMS starts. And at different stages of my life, it's been worse than that. It's been really a whole month of feeling miserable and having two days where I felt normal. That was before I got a grasp on regulating my cycle awhile ago, after children, it does disrupt your life. I had moments where I like, literally couldn't go out anywhere, do anything social, or be around people. And that's not me. And sometimes I would push through and then I had to learn what no plans. And I think that I don't think people really got it. And I still think it's something that people are not aware of, or women themselves are not aware of within their own bodies. Laura Murphy: And it's so hard to explain, I think probably with so many conditions, unless you live with it and you live through it. It's incredibly difficult to explain to other people I think really bad PMS, doesn't do it justice. There's the whole PMS on steroids that one comes up a lot. Doryn Wallach: I'd say crack. Laura Murphy: Oh, crack. Yes, someone did say that. That's inappropriate. Doryn Wallach: Yeah, that's on crack. Laura Murphy: I tend to say for people you have no clue about, and it's not very detailed, accurate, but I say, Oh, it's a bit like bipolar, but with hormones. And then people are a bit like, Oh, okay, it's serious. Doryn Wallach: And a lot of women with PMDD get diagnosed with bipolar. I know that I was diagnosed a few times with bipolar and I kept saying to doctors, I don't really fit that description. And I think it was just kind of a blanket. Well, I don't know what's going on with you otherwise. Laura Murphy: I think the menstrual cycle just isn't taken into account and we see that a lot, people are either misdiagnosed with PMDD or sorry, misdiagnosed with PMDD when they actually have bipolar. There's people that are misdiagnosed with bipolar when they actually have PMDD. And some people have bipolar disorder and have PME, premenstrual exacerbation, PME is the exacerbation of an existing disorder. And that occurs within the premenstrual phase. So that can be any other, any condition. It can be borderline personality disorder, fibromyalgia, MS, ME, bipolar disorder, absolutely anything skin conditions that can flare in that phase before your period. So we do see people, it could be really hard to unpick whether you have PMDD or PME and bipolar, or you could have both. There's nothing to say you couldn't have both so it's really important to see a qualified psychiatrist in that instance to get a proper differential diagnosis. Doryn Wallach: Okay. So let's go back to, you looked up PMDD. What happened then after you discovered that's what you had? Laura Murphy: I did lots of reading and I think I also buried my head in the sand a bit. I was still having good tweaks and just trying to ignore it and probably a bit self-destructive still, going out and enjoying myself in the good weeks and probably self-medicating a bit too much in the bad weeks going out and partying. But I think I just liked to read, I was one of those people, I was like, I want to understand it. And I joined a UK specific PMDD group. And like you say, connected with other people, realized that I wasn't a bad person, that this was a real thing that these stories and experiences, it just so aligned with other people looking back the relationship, breakups, the not being able to hold down a job. So being in the work toilets, and I think I saw the doctor again and was sent away with a PMS leaflets, which is really helpful have your evening Primrose Ireland, try and have a nice bath kind of thing, time to yourself, which really just did not cut it. It just kept getting worse. I was in my mid thirties by that point. And I tracked my cycle I downloaded the tracker information and I tracked my cycle. And then I hit a real low point. At that point in my thirties, I was sort of losing well over a week, every month. And it was getting worse all the time to the point where it just felt like someone had died every month. It was literally like going through a bereavement. It was exhausting. Everything just would tip on its head. And it would just, I don't even know how I think the only way I can describe is if you've ever got that phone call with bad news and your heart drops and your world is just pulled out from under your feet, it would just feel like that. And you knew it wasn't real and it was hormones and it would pass. Doryn Wallach: I always explained it as just kind of waiting for like you kind of at the top of the rollercoaster and then going down. And my other description is, it's like crawling out a quick sand every day, it's like you're trying but you keep getting pushed down. Laura Murphy: Yeah. The fatigue was a lot. I used to get hypersomnia so sleeping too much. Like I couldn't stay awake for a day. I'd have two or three naps. I literally just couldn't keep my eyes open. It was the kind of, sort of tiredness you can't push you with caffeine. And if you did try that, then the anxiety would ramp up [crosstalk 00:14:36]. You know, your body's kind of like fighting against itself, just utter exhaustion. And I hit a real low point and didn't know how to describe it safely, but almost took my life. I'm very much on the spur of a moment. And it was at that moment, my partner sort of said, "We really got to get you to the doctor." And I went to see my GP and she's all finally lessened. I found the name of a specialist in the UK, Dr. Benet who's very well known internationally, and I got a referral to him. So he way it works in the UK and three months later sort of sat in front of him. And it was very much, I actually just listened to your previous podcast. When you said you sat in front of the doctor and it was the first time anyone had ever said yeah, this sounds all very on the ticket you just let me talk for about five minutes. And he said this is very textbook PMDD, like tick, tick, tick, tick started in adolescent, worsened as you got older, reacted badly to the progesterone, to the Mirena. I personally didn't do very well on all the contraceptive pills. I did okay on SSRIs for quite a while. I think that held it back a lot in my twenties. I saw him as a he's based in London and through that, then I started on like cycle Suppression using HRT. So I tried that for about a year or so. Doryn Wallach: Can you explain what that is? Laura Murphy: Yeah. So essentially it's the next step up from taking the pill. You want to suppress your ovulation. So with PMDD, should've mentioned, this is a hormone sensitivity to the natural fluctuations that occur in your luteal phase. So what they're trying to do is flatten out that ovulation so it's just a straight line. You know, you want your hormones to not be up and downing. So if the pill doesn't work, then the next stage in the UK, it's still not quite there rolled out in America yet, but under some providers in the UK, you go to using HRT, so estrogen patches, or gel, and then a form of progesterone add-back usually for about 10 days a month. So, I tried that at different levels and unfortunately it didn't work for me. It didn't suppress my ovulation. So then I went on to GnRH-a treatment so that's chemical menopause, where you are given injections. In my case, monthly to come put you in a temporary and reversible state of menopause. Unfortunately, that didn't work for me either. I ovulated through nine months worth. I had a very bad reaction to the chemical menopause and was pretty poorly and had to give up work. It was a very, very hard year, very difficult. I was having about three good days a month and sort of 24, 25 bad days of PMDD like symptoms. So in the October of that year, I had the surgery, which is the last line of treatment for PMDD. Doryn Wallach: And surgery. You mean hysterectomy? Laura Murphy: So the hysterectomy is the important part for the surgery is bilateral oophorectomy so that's ovary removal. So it puts you into surgical menopause, if you don't do well on progesterone, like I didn't, then you have the hysterectomy in addition, but say someone did well on progesterone HLT, then they would, I say only it's not minor by any means, but they would only have ovary removal. So you can't be on, it's called unopposed estrogen. So you couldn't just have estrogen if you have a uterus, because it can be really dangerous. It can lead to hyperplasia like the buildup of the uterine cells, which can then lead to cancer. So if like me, you don't do well on the progesterone. And it brings back PMDD like symptoms. Obviously it would be pointless having the surgery. Doryn Wallach: Right. Laura Murphy: And it could take your ovaries and then put back the symptom manually I had, it's called a total abdominal hysterectomy with bilateral salpingo oophorectomy. So that's your ovaries removed your tubes, your uterus and my cervix as well. So again, I didn't need progesterone treatment. So pretty major, pretty invasive. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. By the way, I've called my doctor and said, "Take it all out, take it out. I can't do this every month." So I understand if you get to that level I'm not at that level yet. When you had the surgery, did you find relief? Was this the answer? Laura Murphy: The actual surgery is only about 50% of the treatment as it were for PMDD, the others of 50% is on the other side. So it's time patients and it's about getting a steady dose of hormones at the right level to protect you and protect your bones and your lungs and your heart health. So for me, it's definitely been a bumpy journey. So I'm three years post-op now I have no regrets. It was the only thing left for me. And my tank was empty. Like I had nothing left to give. And by the time I had the surgery at 37, I was losing half a month every month and was getting so low that I couldn't get out of bed and I couldn't work. I couldn't function. And it's certainly not something to be taken lightly. I want to stress that. It really is when for me, it was like, there's, there's nothing else left. And I have no energy left to keep fighting this. So if it works then awesome, I can't keep going on the way I'm going. That was kind of the decision made for me. I mean, it's a big decision. It puts you in surgical menopause, which has to be managed long-term as well, and much the same as PMDD. It can be really hard getting the right help for that. Doryn Wallach: But you feel better than you did? Laura Murphy: Goodness, yes. Doryn Wallach: Good. Laura Murphy: Yes. It's still... Doryn Wallach: So happy to hear that. Laura Murphy: It's still has moments. I still cycle a little bit. They don't quite understand why that happens. I still cycle to my exact dates and which isn't uncommon. Doryn Wallach: And when you say you cycle, meaning that you feel symptoms even though you have... Laura Murphy: Yeah, there's no ovaries sending the signals. It's more like PMS now. Like I get hungry and I have cravings and there might be a couple of days a month where I get really tired and I just have to really sleep, anxiety and sort of irritability, but nothing like PMDD, like nothing. Doryn Wallach: I'm so happy to hear that. Laura Murphy: Yeah. It's a better place to be for sure. Doryn Wallach: I just told Laura that I never ever want to say that something's working until it's been months because I feel like I'll jinx it. So, and I've done this before, but I just started taking the pill continuously and it's the first month I haven't had a period and I like, actually, it should be day five today. And I woke up with energy. And so I'm like, maybe this is going to be the answer, but I need to get through that three months first to see if I'm really, if it's helping, but it must be such a relief for you, even though you still have some of it. But just to know that it was something that you could tackle and good for you for advocating for yourself and for going through that, because that is not easy stuff to go through either with the PMD or post. Laura Murphy: But it's really strange. I think it's probably one of the only conditions in, like you were saying about all the peer support groups on Facebook. I don't know many conditions but when you get approved for the surgery, everyone's like, congratulations, that's amazing. You know, it's at the time I remember being really annoyed when people are like congratulating me and I was like, this is like... Doryn Wallach: This is hard. This isn't something that's taken lightly. Laura Murphy: No, but it's like, it's an end in sight I think. That's what people want to cheer. And I totally appreciate that, but it's not a good place to be having to choose between the fertility and your life, your mental health, your wellbeing. And thankfully for me, already at 37, I've made the decision. I didn't want to have children. It was a lot easier. But for other people who are making the choice between being well and losing fertility, I mean, that's huge and we need better options and more research so that people don't have to keep going through this. You know, it was my journey and bought a space in time where that was the only option left, but we're hoping in the future that people don't have to go through that because it is invasive and is dangerous and surgical metaphors is not a fun run either. So yeah. Hoping improvements are to come. Doryn Wallach: Oh, good. Okay. I do want to get into that and in a minute, so it's interesting. I know that you didn't have kids. And I have two kids and I've mentioned this on a solo podcast, but when I got pregnant with my daughter, after three months of pregnancy, I had never felt that good in my entire life I had, my anxiety was low. Things rolled off my shoulders, I was sleeping better than I ever had. I was constantly struggling with constipation and that was no longer a problem. I was calm. I had no irritability and I was naive because I was like, "Oh, pregnancy is great." This is great. I feel terrific. I didn't... Laura Murphy: Yeah, this pregnancy has fixed me. Doryn Wallach: It was more like, I wasn't thinking, why has this pregnancy fixed me? I just felt like, "Oh, maybe I was so euphoric about having a child." And very shortly after I gave birth, somebody had come in to talk to me about postpartum depression. And I looked at them and said, "Oh, I don't need that information, I'm fine." But four days later, when my milk came in, my world shattered and I struggled for two years with that. So when I got pregnant again with my son, I went through the same experience, again, feeling wonderful. And at that point, I said to my doctors, I'm not breastfeeding when I'm done. I'm taking the pill in the hospital and I'm going to take it continuously. And I'm not going to like, I now know that I benefit from these hormones. So I need to mimic those in my body. And that actually did help me a lot. I was much better off after my son and my husband at one point, joked that he's like, "Well, maybe you should be a surrogate." And I was like, "That's not funny." Like, [crosstalk 00:25:23] I understand his logic too. But at that time in my life, I did not think it was funny, but... Laura Murphy: We hear that a lot. We do hear that a lot that people and I mean, not everyone with PMDD has the same experience I have to say, but a lot of people do have the experience. You know, the pregnancy is a really happy, calm time because there's no fluctuations. Yeah. Your hormones are all high, there's no monthly ups and downs and surges everything is just riding high. And then once cycle starts back again, like you say, once you have your ovulation or hormone drop, then that's when the issue occurs. Doryn Wallach: So tell me a little bit about the organization that you work for. You're the director of education and awareness for IAPMD. What is IAPMD? What does that stand for and what got you involved in this? Laura Murphy: Okay. So we are the International Association for Premenstrual Disorders. So that covers both PMDD and PME, which we talked about earlier, premenstrual exacerbation. We focus on the exacerbation of psychiatric disorders. So borderline personality disorder and schizophrenia, anxiety, bipolar, anything that's under the sort of the psychiatric umbrella. It started back in 2013 when two people met each other, Amanda Leffler and Sandy McDonalds met each other, both talking to each other in [CloSYS 00:26:56]. One in Colorado and one in Canada up in Halifax, met on a peer support group, got talking. We're just both very passionate about creating something that needed to exist for them as patients at the time, because there wasn't really anything representing them. So they formed the national association of premenstrual dysphoric disorder, so NAPMDD, and that then evolved over the last few years. And in 2018, we went international. So we're now the international association for pretty much total disorders. I became involved about three and a half years ago. I had started a patient awareness campaign called Vicious Cycle. And through that, I then started chatting and getting involved with NAPMDD at the time I joined their board of directors, and then I started volunteering. So I used to run the social media, and then I started running the social media. Then I helped with some other projects going on predictable donating and then director of education and awareness. So yeah, we offer peer support, which is invaluable to people with PMDD and speaking to other people that understand it. I don't think anyone can understand it unless you've been through it. So we have trained peer support providers that can talk people through that journey, give them the tools they need, resources, information, and a friendly, essentially our website is a really good hub of information to help get yourself diagnosed, to learn more about PMDD. Which is building out sections for younger people with PMDD, because you know, that journey is a bit different to being older relationships and dating and education, et cetera. So we're very much trying to work with providers and the scientific community to push for more research or push for better patient outcomes. So we're working on some advocacy at the moment and we have some really exciting news, which I cannot tell you yet because we haven't released it. But we've got some massive work coming on about patient outcomes. Doryn Wallach: Do you feel that there's been a movement in treatment for this? That you feel, whether it's research or from what you have discovered through clients or the women that come to you guys. Are we going in a direction where there's something maybe less drastic than surgery? Laura Murphy: They are working on I think the first part of call, they are trying to locate the biomarkers. So PMDD could be diagnosed by a blood test, which would be amazing. That's not going to happen in the really near future, but people are working on it. There's also some work going on about brain scans to be able to see what is actually happening in the brain when that switch occurs. So when that feeling less, I'm sure you the feeling well, but when you come on your period or within a few days of coming on your period and that mood just kind of lifts it just that you kind of feel yourself going back to normal, like the Color returning, they're trying to sort of figure out what's actually happening in the brain when that happens. And Sweden just did a massive piece of work on a drug called sepranolone, which targets exact area in the brain, the exact mechanism that causes PMDD so that just went through second stage of clinical trials. And in April they announced that they weren't continuing with the developments due to a high placebo rate in the second phase. However, I think it is a really, really good step in the right direction. I think better times are definitely coming and you have to remember PMDD has probably existed forever. Doryn Wallach: Oh yeah. I mean, obviously, and you know it's so funny. I say this all the time, I'm like men had erectile dysfunction and all of a sudden there were pills and treatments that I would imagine multi-billion dollar industry, women are just kind of looked at like, you're crazy. I feel so empowered to learn that there are women that are... What you guys are doing and, and fighting for this for other women, because it's just and I talked about on my podcast with Dr. Cohen, I said, I really feel that medical providers are in the dark on this they just don't understand. Do you do anything to help educate medical providers? Laura Murphy: We do. So we're just working on patient outreach programs at the moment, very exciting. And that will tie into the big announcement that we have coming. But yeah, we're definitely working on, I think as our clinical advisory board lead has said we are doing a really great job of making like thousands of patient experts, but that's no good if they're going to providers and getting turned away if they're not getting the right care. So, I mean, that happens so much. And I think PMDD it's existed for years only became an official diagnosis in 2013. So it's still relatively new. The process needs accelerating, which is what we're working towards because you know, it will happen, but we want it to happen quicker. Doryn Wallach: Right. I was so happy when it became a diagnosis. Laura Murphy: It was controversial at the time. But I think it does. And it's now since I think it was this year as well, maybe I think it may be last year added to the ICD-11. So it's now an international diagnosis. Doryn Wallach: Yes. Why was it controversial? Laura Murphy: Because it's a psychiatric book of diagnosis and there's lots of people and there's papers on it, people felt that it was more... Doryn Wallach: Physical. Laura Murphy: Pathologizing. Pathologizing is such a bad experience. So you're putting women with PMS in a psychiatric book they're doing, it's just PMDD, isn't real. It's just women being hormonal some women can't cope with PMS it's, there are some interesting papers out there about it. Doryn Wallach: If you look at your message boards, you see that there are hundreds or thousands of women who are not just complaining about PMS and the support on there is so wonderful. I mean, I've seen women on there get to a point where they're like, I feel suicidal and that's obviously when they're reaching out to a message board, that can be scary, but that group has been so supportive. And this isn't a bunch of women coming on here to just bitch and moan for no reason I am on the board. Sometimes I get a little, like when I'm having a good week, I'm like, I don't want to see everybody's comments because I just I'm feeling good. Laura Murphy: Of course. Who wants to be reminded in their good time? You know, that's perfectly understandable and the supports are there. So IAPMD runs seven Facebook support groups, and we also have one that's non social media. So for people who don't do Facebook, don't want to do social media called Inspire, which you can find on our website under the support tab. It's more like an old school forum. So you can go in, you can interact anonymously. You can ask questions and find out information and connect with people without being on Facebook and it being all social media that, but I think, yeah, it's perfectly understandable that you don't want to remind you and your good weeks and I think there's also this kind of really, I don't know, people compare it to childbirth like in the good weeks you kind of think, would a condom been that bad. Can't get that bad. It can't. And then you hit the bad weeks again. And you're like, Oh my God. Yes, yes. It can. You know, and things get really, really dark again. Doryn Wallach: You know what I couldn't find it, which I think there should be is online face-to-face support groups or in person when we can go back to that. But like where you're actually in a group talking. Laura Murphy: We're working on it, keep your eyes pale. So we're just changing the way that we run our peer support. We're changing over the programs, sorry, we're changing over the tech platforms at the moment. So we are looking at different ways of rolling out peer support so that people can use it in different ways to suit them because there are people that are just going to want to dip in and out in an anonymous basis. There are people that would prefer to sit in a Zoom call and chat with other people perhaps Doryn Wallach: I looked many times. It would've been great to go to a place where I was understood by other women. And it was something that we could talk about privately and in a safe environment, but it doesn't exist in New York that just very telling of hopefully it will, at some point. Laura Murphy: I think it will totally at some point, and it's something I've seen many people try and start. However, with the nature of PMDD, trying to run something regularly people are either going to try and run it in the good weeks and they don't want to be reminded of it. So it falls apart pretty quickly, or they try and rearrange it and people don't want to go in there with good weeks or perhaps it's not the best place for them when they're really in that bad weeks. Doryn Wallach: Right. It's so true. It's almost like you need AA meetings when you can just pop in when you're having a hard time. Laura Murphy: Yeah. But we do have our peer support services, so they can do video calls. So you... Doryn Wallach: Tell me more about that. So who are the people speaking to the women in the peer support? Laura Murphy: The program is run or it's the brain child. And it's the love of her life. It's a Sandy McDonald, who's our chief executive. So she's a professional peer support expert. And so she started up this program. I think she started some of the bigger peer support groups on Facebook back in the day, back in 2013 and in 2017, we started up the peer support service, which anyone anywhere can contact there's trained providers. So I think we have about 70 active trained providers at the moment. So they are people that live with PMDD themselves, or have previously lived with PMDD who can just connect with you, hold your hand through it, pass you resources. You can ask them questions. You know, we've got a whole database of information to pass on. Lots of questions, clarify things and just be that kind of safe space. It's not crisis support. It is you know, meeting each other on an equal level to discuss any concerns or very common questions and very common problems. You know, I can't find anyone to help treat this. So we have searchable provide a map on our website, which we're always trying to grow. So if anyone has seen someone who is amazing at treating PMDD, please do submit them. We have loads of resources. We have symptom trackers, which is currently the only way to get a diagnosis of PMDD by tracking your cycle for at least two months. Doryn Wallach: I'm sorry, just to go back to that when you're tracking your cycle and then who do you see? Is it a gynecologist or a psychiatrist? Laura Murphy: It entirely depends. I wish there was a straight answer but there's not you might see a general practitioner who has an amazing knowledge of PMDD and you might see a psychiatrist who has never even heard of it. So that's why we're trying to build this provider directory. So for me, I think I was very clear cut and easy PMDD, very on off symptoms, sorry, nothing within the sort of molecular phase. I think it was a pretty straightforward diagnosis. So if perhaps, like we were saying earlier, the confusion around PMDD and bipolar, perhaps if you have concerns, if you're have PMDD or PME or another condition, then you would perhaps need to see an experienced psychiatrist who has an interest in women's health, who can help make a diagnosis. So me personally, my provider is a gynecologist. It's really weird because it sits in the middle. It sits in the middle of site psychiatry and gynae. A lot of the treatment is cycle suppression, quashing down that ovulation. So we would recommend just getting on the provider directory and finding someone new you've been recommended by another patient. Doryn Wallach: Wonderful. Well, I appreciate you coming on and sharing your story. I know that that is not an easy thing to do. I did that for the first time recently, and it was scary, but the more women that do share their stories, the more we're going to learn about this and be able to help. So thank you for coming on the show and thank you for bringing more awareness to this. Please tell the listeners how they can find your organization and the website or Facebook or anything else you want to plug. Laura Murphy: Yeah, of course. We're on iapmd.org. We're across all the usual social media, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, et cetera. So I think PMDD awareness is just so important because so many people, so many patients are unaware of its existence and daily, absolutely daily hear stories about people who thought they were broken, who thought they were weak, who thought it was a personality disorder. In some cases this is backed up, unfortunately by healthcare professionals who should have been fighting fights in their corner. But you know, there's so many people that are missing out on a good quality of life because they don't know it exists and what you know exists and what it's a real thing and it's a biological cause you know, it's not a choice. It is something that happens in the brain. And I think once you know its existence, you can actually start self-advocating, you can start finding out the best way to look after yourself. You can research treatments, you can learn and advocate for yourself. And I think it's just so important. It's important to note this condition isn't PMS, it's recent research that we did show that it had a 30% suicide risk. You know, we have lost many people of the community to this disorder. I think it's just so important that people aren't left out there on their own in the dark. There's a really, really supportive online PMDD community that does bring people in is really caring. And no one, I think understands it like someone else who's gone through it. So I think it's just important to find all those people out there who are living alone with it and just bring them into the fold so we can look after them and nurture them and give the information and resources they need to make this journey. However, they want it to be, people need the information to make informed choices. Doryn Wallach: Absolutely. No, I am grateful to you guys, which is why I reached out to have you on the show because I just was so happy to see that something is being done because there are those days where you kind of just want to give up. You're like, I can't do this anymore. And- Laura Murphy: And I think it's so difficult when you're looking around thinking, I remember certainly I did when I found out about the diagnosis and I was looking around thinking, "Where's all the people fixing this, Where's all the people doing something? What is actually happening?" And you're very much... Thankfully social media makes it so much easier to, and the internet makes it easier to find out who's doing something, but I was a bit like where's the kind of collective body fighting for us, because I don't see it and I really need that to exist. And so I'm really delighted to now actually be part of that and see behind the scenes daily. The organization runs on passion, it's pretty much everyone involved other than the clinical advisory board all have lived experience with PMDD or PME and the work that's done every day is kind of your own passion and wanted to make things better for people because we know how bad it can get and you want to make it better for other people. So I'm really pleased the organization exists and I'm very lucky I get to be part of it. Doryn Wallach: Wow. Well thank you again. And by the way, I would definitely be interested in being one of the peer support people. Laura Murphy: Amazing. Doryn Wallach: Especially if I can figure out a way out of this, which shows I'm getting closer to, I want to be able to help other women if I'm in a good place. Because I think it's just something I'd like to do. So, at one point in my career, I started my master's in social work. So I do have a little experience in counseling and talking to people. Laura Murphy: Oh, amazing. Okay. Yeah. We'll nap you Doryn Wallach: Okay. All right. Wonderful. Laura Murphy, thank you again for coming on the show today. And everybody else, thank you very much for listening again. And if you have any questions, please feel free to email me or message me on Instagram or Facebook. And until next time. Thank you so much for listening. Remember to give yourself permission and know that you are not alone. Don't forget to subscribe. So you don't miss any episodes, reviews are always appreciated and you can reach me by email at, itsnotacrisis@gmail. Instagram, itsnotacrisispodcast. And please join our Facebook group as well. Until next time. Just remember it's not a crisis.

EPISODE 23 Welcome back to another episode! This one is as interesting and educational as it is fun. Have you ever wondered why your mentality is so different from other generations? We’ll try to find out how we can manage to understand and communicate within the relationships that we have in our lives, with our children, our parents, coworkers, employers and so on. Generational expert Meagan Johnson is joining us in this episode to share her analysis and insights regarding each generation’s sign posts - basically what defines their thinking. You’ll learn more about the behavior of Baby Boomers, Gen X’s, Millennials and even our beloved children, Gen Z’s. ​ Meagan is a “Generational Humorist” and challenges her audiences to think differently and act decisively when dealing with multiple generations. She is also a talented public speaker and each one of her presentations is packed full of amazing information and the funniest jokes. EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Doryn Wallach: Welcome to It's Not A Crisis. I am your host, Doryn Wallach. I'm an entrepreneur, a mother of two, a wife and a 40 something, trying to figure out what is happening in this decade. Why is no one talking about it? I created this podcast to help women in their late thirties and forties to figure out what is going on in our mind, body, soul and life. We may laugh, we may cry, we may get frustrated, but most importantly, my goal is to make this next chapter of life positive. I'm also full of my own questions and I'm here to go on this journey with you. So let's do it together. Hey everyone, I think I forgot to wish you a happy new year in my last episode. So happy new year. I don't know, what is this year going to hold? It's got to be better than last year. It has to be, right? I mean, it can only go up from here, we hope. Anyway, I have a really interesting podcast today. I have always been fascinated with generations and it kind of started with a couple of books that I read, one of which I have on one of my other podcasts with Lindsay Gibson. But I recently found that in having a child who is ... two children of one generation and having parents of another generation and now being gen X and doing this podcast, I feel like it's really fascinating to me to start to understand everybody and not be so close minded. I think it's important that we all understand different generations because a lot of times it helps you in work. It helps you in relationships. It helps you in all aspects of your life and it's really important. So today, I am bringing you a guest who is a generational expert. I bet you didn't even know that existed. Meagan is known as a generational humorist and challenges our audience to think differently and act decisively when dealing with multiple generations. Educating through entertainment since 1998, Meagan has worked with a variety of organizations and associations to build multi-generational effective relationships. Meagan's strategy for success is not thinking about how people are different, but thinking about how people are the same. She helps her audience find common ground and build on generational strengths. Meagan and her baby boomer father Larry Johnson are the authors of Generations, Inc: From Boomers to Linksters—Managing the Friction Between Generations at Work. And Meagan is so funny. She does kind of these standup acts when she speaks in public. I'm very excited. You will definitely laugh and you're going to learn a lot. Meagan Johnson, welcome to the show. Meagan Johnson: Thank you Doryn. I am so glad to be here. This is exciting. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. There's so much I want to unwrap with you. First, I think the biggest question for the audience is what exactly is a generational expert and humorist and what made you get into this? Before you say that, you're a gen X too, right? Meagan Johnson: Yes. I am gen X and the big question I get from many of my audiences, which generation is the best? And I say, "Well, you know, we're all equal, but if we had to be honest, gen Xers are just, we're just a little bit better. We're the best generation." Doryn Wallach: Agreed. Meagan Johnson: So yeah, I got interested in the generational topic and the generational divide back in the early nineties after I graduated from Arizona State University. I got my first corporate job and I was really excited and it was with a big well-known company. You might see their oatmeal when you walk down the grocery store aisle. But it was thrilled. I mean, because we were in the middle of a recession in the early nineties, and many of my friends couldn't find a job and I found a job and I wanted to do well. I wanted to be successful. I wanted my parents to be proud that they had sent me to college and that I had a job and I was going to move out of their house and it was hard. It was harder than I expected. And the skills that seemed to serve me when in the part-time jobs, I had worked through college, that skillset didn't seem to serve me as well. My bosses who were two baby boomers, an older baby boomer and a little bit of a younger baby boomer, but they were still a different generation than myself, they seemed to have a completely different attitude about why I chose to work for the company, what I hoped to get out of the job and what motivated me and we just seem to have this disconnect. Now on the flip side as an older person, older than I was then, I can look back and see it was not entirely their fault. I didn't understand a lot of office politics. I didn't really understand how important appearances played in the corporate world. So it was a disconnect on both sides. And that's how I became interested in talking about the different generations, because at the same time, the media was complaining about generation X and how difficult generation X was to work with. And I thought, well, I'm generation X. I don't think we're that bad. And so that's when I began researching and writing and talking about the multiple generations and how every generation comes to either work or the marketplace, or even the dinner table with a different set of expectations from the people around them. Doryn Wallach: I love that and I'm so happy that you're doing this because I think each generation almost thinks very black and white about their own generation. And I am fascinated about this, and I found you because as a mother, I'm trying to understand my kids' generation. As a entrepreneur and having people work for me, having had a lot of millennials working for me, I had a lot of issues in the past that I couldn't quite understand the disconnect. And as well as understanding now, as my parents are getting older and trying to do my own personal therapy and work to try to understand where they were coming from. And I think it's so important for everybody to really understand these generations, because I think that we have to adapt and we have to understand as stubborn as us generation Xers are, we do think we're the best and we feel like ... but everyone else hates us. Meagan Johnson: I always say to audiences, I said, "If this were the Brady bunch generation X, we are Jan. We are the middle child. We are squeezed in between the two mammoth generations, baby boomers and the millennials. The millennials are like Cindy and the baby boomers are everyone's favorite sister, Marcia, Marcia, Marcia. Doryn Wallach: That's so funny. I've actually heard something similar to that before. It's funny, one of the most popular memes that I had posted, it got 800 likes, I posted generation ... And I feel terrible because I don't even know what the source was. It could be you. Generation X women who as children lacked cell phones and helicopter parents came up relying on our own wits to keep ourselves safe. We took control. The comments on this were pretty amazing and I think a lot of my audience said both positive and negative things about being like, I had heard you talk about being a latchkey kid and a lot of women saying that we literally can survive anything, we're so resilient, yet still recovering from therapy. I'm trying to look through some of the comments. This is why I'm so equipped at being single. I'm managing COVID successfully. I learned to fend for myself, provide my own entertainment, handle my own emotions. Anyway, so I had a few people actually reach out to me after this and say, "Can you post more memes like that?" And I'm like, "Well, it's not that easy to find." Maybe you can help me with that and you can create some funny ones since you're funny. But the conversation was amazing. So I think that I have heard myself and I'm sure we all have, I've heard myself go, "These millennials are .... My kids and they don't get anything and they're so spoiled and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." But I think before any of understanding any of that, I think it's important for us to understand the boomers who raised us. So I'd love for you to start first with that generation and just a little bit more about it. Meagan Johnson: My framework is that each generation is defined by generational signposts and generational signposts are events that are specific to one generation and what generational signposts do. Because when you start talking about generations, a lot of times people say, "Well, you're stereotyping." And obviously I never intend to stereotype people, but what generational signposts do, they explain how events, technology and the economy shape various groups of people. Clusters of people born during a certain timeframe have experienced similar situations and can be differentiated from other generations. Here are the baby boomers. Here come the baby boomers and their parents, the baby boomer's parents are the traditional generation. Those are people born before 1945. I always say that for me, that's my grandma. And they grew up with the attitude of children should be seen and not heard. Then this generation, the traditional generation, they come home from world war II. They begin to have children and Dr. Spock releases this completely generation changing book about raising your children, completely changing the attitude that especially people in America had about raising their kids, that kids should be heard, that we should talk to our kids, we should include them in decisions. Doryn Wallach: I have to interrupt you because I got a text from my mother today and because I'm telling her what I was doing. And she said, oh, if I could find it. She said, "In 1960, when boomers suddenly revolted over anything, the older generation professed war, hate, punishment, racism, ways to dress, overly conservative, blah, blah, blah. The sexual social revolution started and sexual freedom. The older generation blamed it all on Dr. Spock and his books about freedom raring and children. They proclaimed it Spock's fault." Meagan Johnson: Yes, they did. When you saw the baby boomers protest the Vietnam war and try to avoid going to war, you had a lot of people blaming Dr. Spock's for that. Doryn Wallach: What was his primary focus? Meagan Johnson: His primary focus was baby and childhood, raising your children with more of an empathetic approach, a little bit different than that approach of that my grandmother, the environment my grandmother was raised in which I think it's interesting because that really has progressed throughout. As you look at the way children have been raised, it's sort of, it's progressed more and more that we see our children as people and that they have opinions and that we want to involve them in decisions and they're part of the family unit. Even though the shape or look of a family unit has changed over the years, that idea of that we involve our children in our daily lives is still there. So yeah, that was Dr. Spock just kind of really turned the idea that children be seen and not heard, kind of turned that on its ear. Is that a phrase, turning something on its ear? I don't know. Doryn Wallach: I don't know. My mother also wanted me to know that Dr. Spock smoked a bit of dope. Meagan Johnson: That's so funny. I thought she was going to tell me like Dr. Spock like smoked a pack a day. That's so funny. I don't know about Dr. Spock's smoking or drug habits. I don't know, but that was funny. Doryn Wallach: Well, apparently she does. Apparently she does. Meagan Johnson: That's something I'm going to have to probably add to my program. Thank you. Doryn Wallach: Well, yeah, let me ask you something because I think that's so interesting. So they were fighting against this notion and yet our parents, at least for me, our parents were pretty hands-off compared to our crazy generation who I think goes over the top and gave us more freedom. I mean, obviously [inaudible 00:12:56] times and safety and everything else, but I wouldn't say I was a latchkey kid, but well, I came home alone a lot of days after school and I pretty much watched TV from, I don't know, 3:30 until 6:00 when my mom got home and I had a snack for every hour and I would go through the TV guide and pick which show I was going to watch. I mean, that's what I did after school. And I was happy by the way. I was happy. I didn't have to talk about my day. I didn't have to [crosstalk 00:13:29]. Meagan Johnson: I was a latchkey kid and I loved it. I tell audiences, "Here's the unvarnished truth about being latchkey kid. It was awesome. It was awesome." I mean, who thought this up? I want to meet them. I want to shake their hand. I want to thank them for giving me the best childhood ever. Yeah, it was great. You came home, this was even before beepers. There was no electronic tether. So 3:00, school was over. They opened the doors and you sauntered on home when you felt like it. You let yourself in the front door, there might be a list of things you had to get done that your mom or dad had left on the counter, but yeah, you planned your snacks. I knew what show came on when, and from 3:30 to about 6:00, you watched TV. It was terrific. Doryn Wallach: I for many years went to this family camp in Vermont called the Tyler Place, best vacation ever, because basically what happens is your kids go to camp during the day and you kind of get to go to camp as an adult, but they're in group from 8:00 till 1:00. You pick them up at 1:00, you don't have any meals with them. You have to go for a week straight. They eat with their friends in their group. And after you drop them off at nighttime, you go to the happy hour, you have dinner with adults and then you pick them up and put them to bed or get a babysitter, whatever. And then they have adult activities. And it's a wonderful trip because you get a few hours in the afternoon with your family. But as parents of little kids, you really get a vacation and it's not all about the kids. And when I had asked the Tyler family who still runs it, I said, "How did this concept come up?" And they said, "Well, we owned this property and we used to rent out the cabins and our grandparents, it was martini time at like 4:00 and they needed the kids to be occupied. So they didn't want the kids anywhere around them. This was not about them. This was about their vacation and their time and it was just so interesting. And just going back to just starting, I only want to touch a little bit on the generation before the boomers, which I don't even know what that was called. Meagan Johnson: The traditional generation, talking about the parents of the baby boomers. I call them the traditional generation. Sometimes you hear silent generation, world war II generation. Tom Brokaw's coined the name, the greatest generation, which I absolutely love that name. That's the generation of I say my grandparents, but yeah, the people that they're born before 1945. Doryn Wallach: And what were their beliefs? Because according to my mother, another text she just sent me is that she had surgery as a little girl, a kidney surgery and horrible, thick needles all the time. She was nine years old and she can remember the nurses and doctors telling her to stop crying and stop being a baby and to not ... that it isn't okay. And that is very typical of her parents, of that wonderful generation. So I'd like to know a little bit about that. Meagan Johnson: Well, that generation, I mean, they experienced the great depression. Even if they were a small child during the great depression, their generational signposts are cumulating during that time, world war II. And you're right, there was a certain kind of exterior toughness. We came out of world war II when the United States experienced a level of prosperity. And the idea that traditional generation had was that you worked hard and you provided for your family. And I always say, if you think of Maslov's hierarchy of needs, the traditional generation satisfied that bottom of the pyramid for every generation that followed, food, shelter, clothing. And with the help of the GI bill, the traditional generation could buy a home. This was the first generation of large numbers to be able to afford a home. But the idea was that I'm going to work very hard and make sacrifices so my family will be safe. My family will be secure or fed and watered. Prior to the baby boom generation, education was unusual. My grandfather from the traditional generation, he did go to college, but the generational difference being is he went to college following world war II with help of the GI bill. College was nothing. He said, "We never talked about college growing up. It was out of the question." But for baby boomers, education became an expectation and baby boomers were expected to go to school, complete high school. Something like 50% of our public education buildings today were built in the fifties just to accommodate all these baby boomers. We had this ... I mean, we talk about large classroom sizes now, but I mean, baby boomers had 30, 40, 50 kids to a class. I actually had an audience member tell me earlier in the year that he had 70, that's seven zero, 70 kids in his first grade class with one teacher. Doryn Wallach: Wow. My mother had 1200 in her graduating senior class. Meagan Johnson: Oh my gosh. So you say that your mother said that her mother told or the nurses said that you need to toughen up. Yeah. It was kind of a much different attitude. My mother talks about crying and that her grandmother at the time stuffed a dish cloth to make her stop crying. Doryn Wallach: But what exactly is that about? Was it just that they had hardships and they had a tough go through them and they felt that their kids should be tough too, or? Meagan Johnson: I think it's a different version when we hear employers say, "When I started my job, I would have never asked for when I was going to get a corner office or when I was that age, I would have never asked how much vacation time do I get?" So it's just a different reflection of what often we say about the younger generation, because we expect the younger generation to behave the same way we behaved when we were at that age. And that's just impossible because generational signposts change and generations change. So you had the traditional generation who, yeah, there was a certain level of certain events like I described, the great depression, world war II, kind of that bottom of the pyramid wasn't being satisfied. And so they worked to satisfy that bottom of the pyramid of Maslov's hierarchy of needs and it's sort of like, well, gosh, I had to work so hard to get to this point, but a new generation doesn't appreciate that. Often, sometimes baby boomer women will say to me, "These young women who are entering the workforce now, they have no idea of what it was like working professionally in the late sixties and the early seventies. It was completely different." As the younger generation enters be it the workplace or the dinner table, they're coming to the place with a completely different set of generational signposts and expectations. Doryn Wallach: I think my mom, her boomer generation, my mom is 73. I've often heard her say, she was a stay-at-home mom and she said, "Women worked, but if they did, they were nurses, they were teachers. They had jobs where they could still kind of be there for the kids." There were obviously women that worked, but she said, "It wasn't really like expected of us. It wasn't something that we felt we needed to do." Whereas our generation was told that we can do everything and we all have anxiety and depression because we feel like we're failing all the time. I mean, she's empathized with that. She's like, "I feel badly for you guys because we didn't actually, we didn't have that same pressure." And that could just be her social demographic and where she grew up. I'm sure that varies across different economic backgrounds. Yeah. Meagan Johnson: Yeah. It does vary. And also, I mean, there were careers that were considered careers for women and you mentioned it, nurse or teacher that was the big one. I point out to audiences, in the fifties, if you looked at a classified ad and I bring it up on the screen, I said, "They would actually have jobs for women and jobs for men. There was different categories and you could list the same job in both column with two different salaries. That was perfectly legal." You're right. It was a completely different attitude about women working for the baby boom generation. But then you come into the late sixties and the early seventies and baby boomers really started to question society norms and really push against the boundaries. And so we began to see the desegregation of schools. The job market began to open up for women. And so you had a more generational shift right there. Doryn Wallach: Feminism as well. Yes. Meagan Johnson: Yeah. The whole idea of equality. You can't list the same job with two different salaries. Doryn Wallach: Okay. So we've covered a little bit of those two generations and now our parents are raising us- Meagan Johnson: Generation X. Yeah. Doryn Wallach: Gen X. I've been told I fall in the middle. I'm a Xennial I guess, I don't know. I'm 77, but I have always considered myself X. Meagan Johnson: After 1980, the millennial generation begins. But when you start talking about generations, there are of course going to be some generalizations and not every generational signpost that we talk about applies to every single person in the generation because you're born at a different time during those years. As you get closer to the demarcation line, you're what I call a cusper. You're on the cusp of two generations. Doryn Wallach: Right. So what were the expectations of our generation from our parents? Meagan Johnson: You touched upon it. The expectation is that we were latchkey kids or even if you weren't a latchkey child, it was okay that according to society, it was okay that you came home and you let yourself in or you made your own snacks. You planned your own time. Even if your mom or your dad was a stay-at-home parent, they might come and go a little bit more than you would see a stay-at-home parent today do. That idea that you were on your own, that that was okay. I know that when I was a kid, I took the city bus. I live in Phoenix, Arizona. So it's not like I live in a tiny town. I live in Phoenix, Arizona, and I took the city bus everywhere because both of my parents worked. And so the expectation from my parents was like, if you want to go anywhere after school, you want to go to the mall or you want to go to your friend's house, you're going to have to figure out a way to get there because mom and dad are at work till 6:00. And it was okay that I was 10 years old and I was taking a city bus somewhere. That was not a weird thing. But I know I mentioned that to a friend of mine. She's a millennial parent. Her little boy is three. I mentioned that, her jaw just dropped. She was like, "What?" Because she didn't have that experience growing up. Her parents who were also baby boomers, because baby boomers had two waves of kids. They had a wave of gen X kids, then they jumped on the bandwagon again and had a wave of millennial kids. She didn't have that experience. And the whole idea of letting her child go off and do things on his own at nine or 10 years old, that was just foreign to her. So for gen Xers, there was this expectation that we manage our own time and that if there was a problem, we kind of got to figure, we got to figure it out. I always say that when we gen Xers we came home, mom and dad had left a list of tasks. We had to figure out how to get it done. And if something went wrong, we had to fix that problem so we could get the task done and move on. Doryn Wallach: Right. And the reason that they allowed us to sort of have that freedom, is that based on anything specifically or just like we're working, times are safer. Meagan Johnson: Many families had both parents working outside the home, so it became so acceptable. We called it latchkey kids. It was an acceptable way to behave. It wasn't frowned upon. So as I said, even if your mom was a stay-at-home mom or your dad was a stay-at-home dad, the fact you were on your own for a certain amount of time, that was okay. It wasn't anything that anybody got real freaked out about. And I know we talk a lot about safety and obviously safety of our children is paramount, but it's interesting if you take out the whole school shootings, if you take that out of the equation, violent acts against children, that hasn't been increased. I mean, we just are more aware of it as a society because we have more access to information. So I mean, one violent act against a child is too much, but that percentage hasn't changed over the decades through the generations. But our perception has changed because we have so much more information. We hear about these things that happen to children, which it's horrific, but we hear about it. It's all over the news. We have access to that more information than we did when back in the seventies, when I was a little kid. Doryn Wallach: We used to just have the milk box, the milk carton. I did a post about that recently just saying, I remember eating my cereal and just staring at the back of the milk carton just thinking about who was this kid, how did they go missing? It was kind of a scary thing to sit there as a kid and stare at it. Meagan Johnson: Yes. Yes. It's so interesting you brought that up because some time over the summer, I was watching a show about that first child that was put on the milk box and that whole case behind the kid on the very first milk box picture. Yeah. Doryn Wallach: Where did it come from for generation Xers that especially women that we had these expectations put on us to kind of be and do everything? Because from what I've experienced as a gen Xer, I feel that, and I think the worst enemy is women at each other. I just feel that we can do no right, no matter if we're working, if we're staying at home, if we're doing a little bit of both, if we're over-parenting, under parenting, if we're giving our kids freedom. And I think that it's caused a lot of anxiety and this constant feeling of failure. So where did we even get that from? How did that begin? Meagan Johnson: That's a very interesting question because I agree, I always say we are always our own worst critic. I mean, we're more critical of ourselves than anybody. When gen Xers started to enter the professional world, the baby boomers before us really had done a lot of heavy lifting for women. As I mentioned, fighting for equality in the workforce. I hate to use a phrase we hear often, but the glass ceiling, trying to break that glass ceiling, that really began in earnest with the baby boom generation before us. So many of us had mothers or female figures in our lives that said, "Hey, we did a lot of this heavy lifting. And so it's important that you get out there and make something of yourself." And yeah, it's such an interesting question. And then we have children and then a girlfriend of mine who she went back to work after her child was born and she said, "Do you think he's going to be mad at me because I went back to work?" And I said, "No." I said, "You have to remember that by going back to work, you are providing him with things that he wouldn't have if you didn't go to work." I mean, there's a give and take on either side and what I think is really interesting is that I know I've interviewed some gen X women that feel guilty because they don't want to be a stay-at-home mom. Doryn Wallach: Yeah, they just want to work. I was just about to say that. I actually have a podcast coming out this weekend about how to get back into the workforce after staying home with kids. But there are moms, me included, I did stay at home with my kids and I'm so happy I had that time with them, but I'm a lot happier working and using my brain every day. But financially, do I have to work? No, but I choose to. So there's that guilt. I'm sure there are other women in that position too, or- Meagan Johnson: Yeah. I agree with you that I don't really have an answer to that, but I'm intrigued to hear the next podcast that you mentioned. Yeah. I don't know why for many women it's either or like I have to be a stay-at-home parent and feel guilty about not working or vice versa. I think sometimes we can be ... I always say guilt is a wasted feeling. It's like- Doryn Wallach: I love that saying but I wish I could learn how to implement that saying. I will say as you get older, it gets better. As I go into my forties, I feel a little bit more independence from guilt and I care a little bit less about things that I used to feel guilty about. So I'm looking forward to aging and for that matter and feeling less guilty about things. Meagan Johnson: Oh, no, I was going to say right along with worrying. Someone said to me once, it was one of those statements that I still use. They said worrying is using your imagination to think about the worst case scenario. So it's like when you worry, and I kind of feel the same way about guilt, it's like we're using our thought processes, our imaginations to visualize the worst thing that could happen. Doryn Wallach: Exactly. Well, let's talk about millennials. So I no longer have anybody working for me full-time, but I did a few years ago. And at the time she was in her early twenties and I all of a sudden found myself saying, and she was wonderful. She really was. But there were disagreements and differences in our ages, but that's when I started hearing myself say, "Oh my God, these millennials ..." Now it's like all of a sudden, you're this old person. However, there were a lot of things she taught me that I found really interesting also. And I think that, I think it's important for us to instead of blame the generation as being lazy, and by the way people said that about us too or that they just want instant success, I think we have to understand why they are the way they are. I went to a summit and they had a bunch of millennial entrepreneurs get up and speak and say, "We want to talk to you about our generation because we're sick of hearing that we're lazy and we're this and that or quite the opposite, we actually, we're developing things. We're trying things. We're not sitting around doing nothing. We're not expecting things to just fall in our lap." And it was actually a very valid point, but still I still hear my friends, I hear my colleagues and it's like those damn millennials. They just ... [crosstalk 00:32:15]. Yeah. Why are they given that label from us? Meagan Johnson: Well, I think you hit the nail on the head when you said they said the same thing about us. So yeah, and I make that point to audiences is that the same thing that baby boomers said about gen Xers back in the early nineties, now gen Xers and baby boomers are saying the same things about millennials. And really what we're describing is a youthful generation. And when I say youthful, I mean, they just have a ... they're younger, so they have a different set of experiences than you do. And I call those experiences, generational signposts, which we talked about. But yeah, so they just have a different set of experiences, but you brought up this whole thing about being lazy because I hear that a lot. They're lazy. Many millennials came into adulthood in the middle of the great recession and worked their asses off and I think that's so interesting. I'm like, "So we're calling this generation lazy when they were graduating college or graduating getting their masters or PhDs, and they entered a job market in 2008, 2009, when everything was just crashing. And so they jumped right in both feet in figuring out a way to make it work. So they are not a lazy generation, but they do work differently." And I think that's where you see some of the older people say, "Well, they're lazy because they want, and this was pre-COVID, they want to work from home." Everybody knows what that means. That means you're not really working. Or they want to work at a Starbucks or fill in the blank, whatever your favorite espresso place is. Doryn Wallach: Become an influencer. Meagan Johnson: Yes. And they just want to be online all day. Well, no, they don't want to be online all day. They're online all day because that's where the information is. We don't go to the encyclopedia anymore. We don't go to the library and look up things. We're online because that's where the information is so that we can gather that information and do our jobs. And millennials we're just ... millennials have been doing that since they were in college, since they were in school. It's a different way of working and so that's where you see the older generation calling them lazy when they're not lazy at all. Doryn Wallach: That's interesting and that's a good thing to note because I do think I hear it a lot and I've learned over the years to try not be so black and white about my opinions. And this is exactly why I want you here, because I think it's important for us to understand why everybody is the way that they are. So most of our generation now, our children are gen Z. Meagan Johnson: Yeah. So gen Z are born between 1997 and 2012. Are your kids gen Z? Doryn Wallach: Yes. They are 2007 and 2010. Meagan Johnson: Okay. All right. So don't make me do math. How old are they? Doryn Wallach: 10 and 13. Meagan Johnson: 10 and 13. Oh my gosh. And are they both ... you have a boy and a girl, right? Doryn Wallach: I have a 10 year-old boy and a 13 year old girl. Meagan Johnson: 13 is the beginning when I became the nastiest person on the earth to my mother. Doryn Wallach: I know. Everybody keeps ... I mean, we talked about this yesterday on the podcast. I know, I know. She's not that bad. She really isn't. But there are days where I go in my head and I go remember 13, remember 13, remember 13? You have to try to remember what it was like to be that age and say, "Okay, I'm going to bite my tongue." But so far she's been okay. Tell me what you know. I know they're not that old yet, but what do you see of generation Z? Meagan Johnson: So it's interesting gen Z comes on board. And I think a lot of times people, if someone's young, they call them a millennial like, "Oh, that millennial." And it's like, well, how old is the person? 21. Well, they're not a millennial. So you've got gen Z. So here comes gen Z. Right now there's about 74 million of them. They're 25% of the US population. What I think is interesting is they watch about 68 videos a day. Doryn Wallach: Oh my God. Four more. Meagan Johnson: So when we say that gen Z is truly a true digital generation, and the difference between them and millennials is that you can have a millennial who could remember that when they grew up, their house had a landline, maybe when they grew up, they actually had to have dial up. Remember dial up to get on the internet? Doryn Wallach: Yup. Meagan Johnson: They might even remember dial up. In school, they might've held textbooks. But now you have gen Z. So you can have a gen Z person truly live in a home that never had a landline, live in a home where their parents do all their banking online. So never write a check. And also when they go to school, they're doing the work on tablets. And especially now with COVID, now they're online. They're doing their education completely online right now with COVID. So they really are the first group of children who are growing up totally digital. And the interesting, interesting thing is that the internet has become the expert. So whereas in the past, even with millennials, there was the idea that hey, maybe the parent or the teacher was the expert. But now with this gen Z, since that the internet and all that information has been there since moment one, the internet is the expert. Doryn Wallach: Oh, I know nothing [crosstalk 00:37:47]. It's all online and the internet knows, and I know nothing. Meagan Johnson: Yes. And really what parents are becoming, not just a parent figure, but also kind of, they have to be that guide. You I'm sure struggle with or I would struggle with it but I'm sure you deal with this is that you have to become the guide to kind of help them understand the internet. Like when you say everything just because it's on the internet doesn't mean it's true or just because you saw a video about it, doesn't make it's true. So you kind of have to be that guide to help them filter out the information or understand the information, but really the internet has become the expert. And so it's interesting because employers are struggling with it because they've got these younger people joining their organizations. And just because you're my employer, just because you're my manager doesn't mean you're the expert. I might know more about this than you do. Doryn Wallach: Oh, that's rough. That's rough I find it overwhelming parenting a generation Z kid because of the internet, because of how much they're exposed to, because my word while I know they're listening, I do know that they hear me. This is a very silly example, but my daughter watches this guy on YouTube who talks about skincare products and she's obsessed with skincare products. And she will literally go through my cabinet and be like you ... His name's Hiram, "Hiram doesn't like that. He says that's really bad. You shouldn't be using it." I'm like, "Well, I've been using it since 1990 and everything's been fine. My face has not fallen off." But it's like things like that and I'll try to educate her and say, "Honey, just because one guy is popular online, I'm sure he is very knowledgeable, but his word isn't the only word. That's not the only ..." So parenting this generation is difficult because they are exposed to so much. And then we pull in this pandemic, we've all loosened up on technology and allowing them to be online as much as they want because of just having to deal. Do you have any, I know you're not a psychic, but given your line of work, I'm wondering if you've ever had this conversation in any groups or ... I was a sociology minor, actually major and I think about this constantly, how this pandemic is going to shape our children. We talk about the depression, well, this is our depression. What is going to come of our children from this time? I mean, do you have any thoughts? I'm not taking your word as what it is, but- Meagan Johnson: Well, yeah, it is just devastating. And I have to say, I've thought to myself, I am so glad I am an adult when this is happening. I'm so glad that I'm not 12, 13, 14, 15 years old. Because on one hand, even though children, we talked about children being very resilient, but that's just, this is a pretty, what I call big piece of bummer pie. This is- Doryn Wallach: Traumatic. Traumatic. Meagan Johnson: Yeah. So I think what's going to be interesting is that you're going to have a generation that really identify with causes or organizations that help us through this process. So they'll identify with either influencers, companies, leaders that say, "Okay, here's how we can help get through COVID or here's how you can help your neighbor or here's a way that you can connect with others." What's interesting is in the corporate setting, the generation that's missing going to the office the most is generation Z, is that the youngest generation on the spectrum, they're the ones missing that human connection the most. Because I think we think, oh gosh, they're so digital. They don't care. They must love it. They don't ... but no, we're all human beings. And even the most reclusive of us still desire human connection, some kind of human connection. And so I think this younger generation, I think they'll be very pragmatic, they'll be very practical, but they also will definitely identify with organizations, leaders, people who are outspoken about this is the way we get through a tough situation. The two generational signposts that generation Z identify, say are the top generational signposts of their generation is the Coronavirus and black lives matter are the two that they say that these are the most significant generational signposts of our generation. Doryn Wallach: Absolutely. I always tell my daughter, I said, "I can not wait ..." This is kind of in the beginning of the pandemic when I was losing my marbles. And I said to her, "I cannot wait until one day, you're a mom and your kids are like, 'I'm bored of staying at home. What do I do?' And you're like, 'Do you know what I did when I was your age? Do you know how many days I had to stay in the house and entertain myself? And I didn't get to see my friends and don't complain.'" I mean, it's so interesting. I can't wait. I hope I'm around to see her and my son talking to their kids about it. I do think even I see a change in my kids from the beginning of the pandemic. I mean, we're going to be going on a year in March and hopefully it gets better after a year, but this is a big year of their lives. And I've noticed that as moms, we have learned and as gen Xers by the way, we have learned to not be so controlling, we have learned to let go a little bit. We have learned that we can't tackle every situation on our own. And I think that that's been good for our kids, because I think I've seen our kids gain a lot of independence. And part of it is like really just like, I can't do it anymore. I can't do this anymore. My kids joke is when I say I'm done, they're like, "This is mommy. I'm done. I'm done. I'm done." You get done and you just don't want to do anything. You're like, "I don't care what you do. If you want to put your feet outside the window, dangling upside down on your iPad, that's cool." Meagan Johnson: It's funny you said that because my husband and I had the same, similar conversation. Over the summer, we were out walking and one of the little kids in the neighborhood, he's just a little typhoon of energy, but he's younger than 10. He comes sailing by me on one of those little like scooter boards, it's got the handles. He just comes sailing by me. He's in his pajamas. He doesn't have shoes on and his parents are nowhere to be found. And I said, "That's just something you would not have seen a year ago." Doryn Wallach: No. It's so true. It's so true. It really isn't. So that's actually interesting because I think that, I don't think we're going to go back to our ways. I think that we've all learned a lot from this. And honestly, I think we kind of needed this shift us as parents, because we're crazy and the helicoptering and the control and I think we needed this wake up call. Sometimes I say it was a blessing in disguise. It'll just be so interesting to see how that goes forward and how our kids parent because of this. And I don't know. I find it all fascinating. Meagan Johnson: It is. And you've talked about it is coming in March, it'll be a year. A year to you or to me is one thing, but when you're 10 or 13, a year is a huge part of your life. Yeah. I think the magnitude of this will be much bigger in the mind of someone who is 13, 14 years old, just because a year, that's a long time when you're 13 years old versus when you're in your forties or like me, when you're 50, a year is like it's nothing. Doryn Wallach: Right, right. And also there will be after effects for a very long time. It's not like the vaccine is going to come out and the whole world's going to be back to normal. There's going to be a lot of, there'll be a lot of positive that comes out of this. There's going to be a lot of negative and it's just all so interesting. Is there anything that you feel that you wanted to cover that I didn't bring up? Meagan Johnson: Well, you brought up everything. Doryn Wallach: I know. I'm telling you, I just find that so interesting. Meagan Johnson: I think we all have to remember and you touched upon it when we feel so guilty if we don't do X or Y or Z. I just think I have to remember that at any moment, no matter what generation you belong to, we all do what we feel is best for our children. And we all do what at the time, at the moment that we chose that course of action, we made the best decision we felt with the information that we had at our fingertips. And that we have to kind of ease up on ourselves, as you were saying, not feel so guilty because we're not doing every single thing all the time, that we're doing the best we can with the information we have at hand and we're making the best decisions that we feel that are the best decisions in that moment and that's the best we can do. Doryn Wallach: And then I would also say to everyone listening, spend some time reading about your parents' generation, spend some time reading about your own generation and spend some time reading about your kids' generation, because I think ... or millennials also who you're working with. I think it's really important to understand it from a psychological point of view and to be more open-minded and I'm guilty of that myself. And I feel that it's important. It's important to educate yourself. Meagan Johnson: I heard a speaker talking about unconscious bias. It's sort of just being aware of how uncomfortable you might feel and same thing when it comes to generations. It's like, okay. So I just kind of have to feel what I'm feeling for a moment. And why is it I'm upset by someone's behavior or why is it that I'm uptight about the situation? Just sort of feel, kind of allow ourselves to feel what we're feeling at that moment and then think about our response. Doryn Wallach: I'm going to leave with this one last thing. When I had my employee that worked for me, a millennial, we worked in an office building where on the floor of our building was this huge group of guys who worked for this advertising firm and they were all millennials. And anytime I would go, and I was like the old, I mean, maybe I look a little younger than my age, but I was like the old woman on the floor. And anytime I'd go to the elevator, they would just walk in in front of me and they would never hold the door and then they'd walk out when they were leaving. And I was once leaving with her and I said, "I don't understand what happened to this, your generation's parents. Did they just not teach manners? What happened in between, because we know whether it's a man or a woman, we know to hold the door open. We don't just do it." And she said, "Honestly, we find it kind of sexist. We don't need someone to open the door for us. We don't actually like it. We want to do it on our own and we just don't feel that ... It kind of demoralizes us as women." And that's when I kind of said, "Well, honestly, I just see it as manners. I don't care. I hold the door for both sides." Meagan Johnson: I [crosstalk 00:49:12] the door open. I like having open doors. Doryn Wallach: Right. So that was just, that was interesting. But you know what, it opened my eyes to say, "Okay, I get it. Yeah. You're being raised differently than I was. But then how do you know which women feels that way, which one doesn't?" These poor guys trying to figure out who wants the door open and who doesn't. Meagan Johnson: Maybe I should just like hold it up with my toe and I kind of see. I can just drop it closed. It doesn't matter. Doryn Wallach: Thank you so much for coming today. This was such a great podcast and I hope the listeners learned a little bit of something. Where can you be found? Meagan Johnson: I can be found all around. So my website, it's meaganjohnson.com. And then of course I'm all over social media. So you put my name in Google and you'll see my spiky haired little face come up all over the place. Doryn Wallach: And your talk, some of your talks are on YouTube, right? Meagan Johnson: Yes. Yes. Some are on YouTube. And I have, again, I have a YouTube channel. I'm on YouTube. I always say when you have trouble sleeping, you can just pull out one of those little videos and give it a watch. Doryn Wallach: Well, you're very funny and you have very good ... You have the delivery of a standup comedian. Yeah. Meagan Johnson: Oh, thank you. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. I know. Meagan Johnson: I appreciate that. Thank you. Yeah. I would have loved to have been a comedian, but I really didn't want to work nights. I'm a day person. Doryn Wallach: Oh, you're doing a great thing and I'm so happy that you came on the show. Meagan Johnson: Hey, thank you so much. This has been a ton of fun. Doryn Wallach: Okay, great. And thank you all of you for listening. Until next time. Thank you so much for listening. Remember to give yourself permission and know that you are not alone. Don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any episodes. Reviews are always appreciated and you can reach me by email at itsnotacrisis@gmail. Instagram, it's not a crisis podcast and please join our Facebook group as well. Until next time, just remember, it's not a crisis.

EPISODE 22 In this episode, I am joined by the super talented and dynamic, Vanessa Williams, as we continue our Wise Women Over 50 series. I am so honored to have Vanessa on my show and to be able to chat with her about her personal life and family, her past, her experience as a mother of 4 and her very accomplished career. As many of you already know, Vanessa Williams is one of the most respected and multi-faceted performers in the entertainment industry today. She is vastly experienced in the entertainment industry and has earned countless awards, even being the first woman of African-American descent to ever receive the Miss America Award 1984. She is currently involved in many endeavors, from music, to film and television, writing children’s books starring on Broadway and giving back through charity work. EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Doryn Wallach: Welcome to, "It's Not A Crisis." I am your host Doryn Wallach. I'm an entrepreneur, a mother of two, a wife, and a forty something trying to figure out what is happening in this decade. Why is no one talking about it? I created this podcast to help women in their late thirties and forties to figure out what is going on in our mind, body, soul, and life. We may laugh, we may cry, we may get frustrated, but most importantly, my goal is to make this next chapter of life positive. I'm also full of my own questions, and I'm here to go on this journey with you, so let's do it together. Hey everyone! Welcome to another episode! And today, yay, I'm so excited because I have Vanessa Williams on the show. I wasn't nervous one bit before this interview. I've got to tell you, I had a good night's sleep last night, my hands weren't trembling when I was doing the interview. I'm joking. I was actually petrified, and she was so wonderful and so easy to talk to. I'm always honored that anybody wants to do my show. Truly, they're putting their faith and their trust in me to make them feel comfortable and to look good. It doesn't go unnoticed, so all my guests are important to me, whether they're as famous as Vanessa Williams, or not. So, today is episode three of "Wise Women Over 50," and a friend of mine met Vanessa Williams while acting with her, and she called me and she said, "You have to have Vanessa on the show. She's just so amazing to talk to and she has so much wisdom, and I really think she'll be a great guest." And I was like, "Great, if you can set it up, that'd be wonderful." So, here we are, and I have to tell you, after doing my research and reading her book and listening to her own podcast, I truly fell in love with her as a person. I just want to go to dinner with her. She's a dynamic woman, humble, intelligent, and so many other things. So it really was an honor to interview her, and she really fit the bill for my "Wise Women Over 50." Vanessa Williams is one of the most respected and multi-faceted performers in the entertainment industry today. Having sold millions of records world wide, Vanessa has also achieved numerous number one and top ten hits on various billboard album and single charts. Pop, Dance, R&B, Adult, Contemporary, Holiday, Latin, Gospel, Jazz, I don't think there's anything left after all that. Her critically acclaimed work in film, television recordings, and the Broadway stage has been recognized by every major industry award affiliate, including four Emmy nominations, eleven Grammy nominations, a Tony nomination, three SAG award nominations, seven NAACP Image Awards, and three Satellite awards. Her platinum single, "Colors of the Wind" from Disney's "Pocahontas" won the Oscar, Grammy, and Golden Globe for Best Original Song. A graduate of Syracuse University, which by the way, I went to my freshman year. I forgot to tell her that, but then I transferred. It was cold. Vanessa is a strong advocate for equal rights, especially concerning the gay community and minorities. She was honored with the human rights campaign, Ally for Equality award for her humanitarian contributions. Vanessa also achieved a career pinnacle with a start on the Hollywood Walk of Fame in 2007. "Bubble Kisses," Vanessa's first picture book for children, released in 2020, tells the story of a young girl with the ability to transform into a mermaid. This effervescent, lively tale is based on a song which is also available with the book, and as a download. Her autobiography, "You Have No Idea," co-written with her mother, Helen Williams, was a New York Times Bestseller in 2012. Get the book, I loved the book. I thought it was so wonderful, really easy read. And by the way, the children's book, I heard the song, and in the podcast Vanessa mentions that hopefully if you're sick of Baby Shark, and I don't have little kids and I am sick of "Baby Shark" and this song, I hope this song catches on, because it's one that you'd want to hear over and over again. Vanessa's recent Broadway credits include co-staring with Cicely Tyson in, "The Trip to Bountiful," the number one play of the 2013 season, "After Midnight," 2014, and a special limited engagement in, "Hey Look Me Over," at New York City Center in 2018. Vanessa is the mother of four, Melanie, Jillian, Devin, and Sasha. Her charitable endeavors are many and varied, embracing and supporting such organizations as Concerts from America, Special Olympics, and several others. Doryn Wallach: Hi, Vanessa! Welcome to, "It's Not a Crisis!" I cannot thank you enough for taking the time to be here. I know that you're a very busy woman, but my listeners I know are going to be so incredibly grateful for your wisdom and I'm grateful to my good friend Kristy for introducing us and connecting us. Vanessa Williams: Yay Kristy. I met Kristy, actually we worked twice together doing a mutual friend's, who happens to be a priest, who's also an amazing playwright, we did a reading of his play. Doryn Wallach: In the Vineyard, right? Vanessa Williams: Vineyard and also in Orange County at Chapman University. So we've worked together twice. Doryn Wallach: Oh that's great. She's one of my favorite people in the world. Vanessa Williams: Yes. Doryn Wallach: She always lifts me. Vanessa Williams: Yeah. Doryn Wallach: So I wanted you to know that in preparation for this interview, I read your book, "You Have No Idea," which I loved. Vanessa Williams: Oo, good! Doryn Wallach: And I feel like I know so much about you and your family. I listened to a bunch of podcasts that you were on, and I'm just really, truly blown away by you. I just think you're a woman who doesn't give up or let anyone or anything stop you. You seem like an amazing and caring mom and you just love being a mom. And you also, I love your carefree, creative spirit. I don't know if that's evolved as you've gotten older, but your younger free spirit I loved. Hearing some of your stories, I was like, "Oh, we would've been good friends then." Vanessa Williams: We would've gotten into a lot of trouble that's the problem. Doryn Wallach: And Kristy said it would be a bad situation. And by the way, so this is not part of the interview, but I just watched you on a Live and I saw like four different people saying, "Can you give us a beauty tip? Can you give us a beauty tip?" And I'm thinking to myself, "Oh my God! Look how gorgeous you look!" Is there one tip? Vanessa Williams: Well right now it's a good Ring Light, that's for sure. I bought that immediately once the last year's COVID isolation went down. Doryn Wallach: I have one, too. It doesn't do that to me, what it does to you. Vanessa Williams: Know your angles. So lighting and angles have a huge, they wash away a lot of the lines that are natural when you're in front of the camera. And then I think coverage is really good too. I use a variety of thing, like Laura Mercier, she's got a secret camouflage that's just like you can dot it on dark spots, or little age spots, or just any kind of skin issue, that'll smooth it out. And then just get a really good foundation that has coverage, but it's kind of light with a little bit of luminescence. Amoria also work, I use that, I layer that with some other things. One of the ones that's really convenient and available in drug stores is Iman. She's got a great line, and it's affordable, and you can get it easily. And just learn how to do your face. I've been lucky to have Kevyn Aucoin, and Scott Barnes, and Sam Fine, and all these amazing people do my face over the years, for many years, and I just watch and learn the tricks and learn how to do a defined eyebrow, and ask questions. "Okay, what brow powder are you using? What brush is that? What's the bronzer?" Because there's so many tutorials now. Doryn Wallach: Oh it's overwhelming. Vanessa Williams: It's overwhelming, yeah, but the good ones have the good secrets. So the ones that have the books, as I mentioned, Sam Fine, Kevyn Aucoin, Scott Barnes, they all have published books out that will give you tips to get a good face. I definitely find, as I get older, the paler lip works better. I mean sometimes I go, "Let me just throw in a red lip," and it just ages me. It used to be hot when you're young and you've got just a blank face with a lash and a nice, hot, red lip, you can get away with that. The older you get, I think it brings too much attention, so I think the older you get the more you can make your lip more pale, and keep your skin as smooth as you possibly can in terms of less contour, and then just work on the eye. Doryn Wallach: By the way, I tell my mother, my mother loves makeup, and she wears red lips all the time, she's 73, and I'm like, "Mom, when you have no lipstick on, you look so much younger!" And she claims her lips aren't for people's viewing. I don't know. So as you know, our audience is in their late thirties and forties, and I started this podcast out of having my own questions that weren't being answered. I just felt like there was a lot of lack of support and guidance at this age, as opposed to other decades in our lives. And just so much is changing with our bodies, our minds, our families, so my first question to you is, what was happening your late thirties and forties, in your life? Vanessa Williams: Late thirties, I got married for the second time, and I had my daughter Sasha at 37, so she kind of kicked off the next phase of mommyhood, because my other three I had in my twenties. I had my first kid at 24, second at 26, and my third at 30. And I got married at 23, so that was my twenties, working, establishing myself. Thirties were like, okay, my career's going, let's dedicate myself to my career, and then Sasha was my little bonus trip. So, my late thirties, early forties was dealing with a new marriage, and my husband was six years younger than myself, and kind of digging in on my career a bit more. We, let's see how old was I, early forties, the marriage lasted six years, and then I got divorced for the second time. Between getting divorced and my father passing away, I kind of wanted a big change of life, because I was just so, speaking of crisis, which is the name of your... We have lots of crises, and divorce is one of the hardest to get through, especially if you have kids. But having those two kind of back to back within a couple years, I kind of reassessed, what do I want to do? And that's when Ugly Betty approached me time and time again, and I just said, "No, no, no." And it was one of those things where I said, "Okay, fine. I'll do it." And that was my forties, a whole new career on television. We had four great years, and three Emmy nominations, and after that did Desperate Housewives. So it was a pivotal point for me, I would say late thirties, early forties. Doryn Wallach: That's interesting. And did you have any time to process the hormonal changes that were going through your body at that time? Vanessa Williams: Well yeah, I tried to stay on top of it. I went to Suzanne Summers who was the icon of aging naturally and beautifully. Doryn Wallach: [crosstalk 00:11:59] thousand pills, I remember. Vanessa Williams: Exactly. She works with a doctor named Michael Galitzer, and I started going to him when I was probably 44, 45, or so. Because I could feel that my periods were getting every other month, and getting lighter, and a couple of nights where I'd get these hot flashes, and I said, "Oh my gosh, what's this?" And my mother, I had asked my mom, when did she go through menopause, and she had stopped menstruating at 51, so I knew I had a five year window time that I needed to kind of ease what the symptoms were going to be. So I've done bioidentical creams since my mid-forties, and that is plant based, they're identical to progesterone, estrogen, and testosterone. And I've been doing those for years, which it really, really helps. And I know when I don't take them, and I start flashing really bad, I was like, "Okay, the protocol that I'm on is actually working." So I'm big fan of bioidentical hormones for just maintaining the symptoms, but also I think it helps to maintain your skin texture and somewhat your weight gain, even though it unfortunately, does happen. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. Sorry, so who do you see for the bioid- is there? Vanessa Williams: Dr. Michael Galitzer. Doryn Wallach: Galitzer, okay. Vanessa Williams: Galitzer, he's on Wilshire Boulevard in LA. I think it's called the American Institute, some people would think it's hippie dippy, but he's got a machine that has a... I know it's a German machine, it's a probe on one end, and he puts the probe on one of your fingers and he tests for thyroid, he'll test for liver, he'll test for all these different functions, and then he'll put a little vile into the machine that tells you whether it's good or bad, or whether you need it or not, and then you get these drops from him that you put sub-lingually, and again, that really helps with I think respiratory stuff for me, thyroid, pancreas, adrenal, all those things tend to deteriorate the older you get. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. I'm so excited to hear about this because nobody, and I just had the head of Mass General Women's Health on last week speaking about PMDD and peri-menopause. I'm so thrilled to hear that something works for you and it gives us hope for those of us that are like, "What the hell's going on with my body?" And I don't think anyone talks about the peri-menopause stage. I think they talk about menopause. Vanessa Williams: There's another tip that I have, I got it from a little crystal, incense store up in Beacon, New York. I walked in, I was hot flashing, and the woman behind the counter's like, "Oh, I have something for you." And I was like, "Oh my God, how did she know A, that I was hot flashing," and she gave me this little pump bottle, and it's called, "Tame the Flame." And they have a travel case is like in metal, and then there's one that I have by my bedside in like a blue glass pump bottle, and it's just again, organic, it's got peppermint in it, obviously alcohol to maintain it, and something else. And when you feel a hot flash coming, you spray the back of your neck, all your pressure points, the back of your knees, you can spray your wrists, and it just takes that surge away, especially when I'm on the plane and get all wrapped up and then I might have a hot flash, I'll rip off my sweater, and then I have to put it back on. That's what you have to look forward to. "Tame the Flame," you need something to tame the flame. Doryn Wallach: I'm glad to know about, "Tame the Flame" now, so when I'm getting there, that's such a great name too. Vanessa Williams: Yeah, the name of that place was called, "Heart and Soul," I think in Beacon, New York. Doryn Wallach: Okay. Beacon's a cute area, I like it there. Vanessa Williams: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. Doryn Wallach: You were gifted with many talents and achievements from being the first black Miss America, to amazing roles in Broadway, film, TV, countless nominations and awards. So, with the pandemic and also just getting into our forties and looking at this next chapter, I think a lot of women are re-evaluating their career choices. I think it's their path to stay at home, or working moms, and the amount of time they should be with their kids before they leave for college. I know personally, with my fine jewelry business, I'm actually looking at my own career and deciding where I really want to be. I think both age and the pandemic has made us all think about that. Also, as Generation X, we were told growing up that we could do everything, and it's not possible to do everything perfectly, we all know that. And I think a lot of us are kind of burnt out at this stage. So for women who are entering this time of their lives, and feeling guilty about every direction, about not doing it all, what would be your advice to your younger self about balance, and what have you learned from your kids about being a working mom and balance, now that they're older and able to reflect back on that? Vanessa Williams: Well the first thing is there is no balance. So when you're in heavy work mode, and you've got a five year window to maximize your value, that's when you've got to call in your troops and get support and dive into the work mode. My kids have always come first, and I've always worked my career around my kids' schedule. I remember one time, I was on Broadway with Cicely Tyson and Cuba Gooding Jr. and we were doing, "Trip to Bountiful," and I did this interview, and the woman said, "I thought you'd be much bigger than you are." And I thought, I had to check myself and like, "Okay, I'm starring on Broadway with Cicely Tyson, who's one of my idols that I grew up watching in Sounder and all of her films, doing what I love, driving home at night, after my show to be with my kids, and this person's perception is, 'Oh I thought you were going to be bigger.'" So I checked myself, and instead of being offended, which I initially was, I took a breath and said, "I have taken a lot of time out of my life to raise my kids, so I wasn't available for everything that I could've done that might've made my career different in a bigger or different way, but I was at every function my kids were at. My kids are polite, well-mannered, educated, humble. It's because I was there with them. I took them everywhere I went. They've been exposed to the world, but they were also parented by me and not by a staff or a nanny," and that's how I reframed, like "Okay, what her priority and what her assessment is not equal to what my value and what my worth is to me." And that's what you kind of have to wrestle with and be fine with, and let go with. Don't compare yourself, and don't put yourself in a competition where, "Oh my God, that person did this. I've got to do this. Oh, she was 35 when she did this and I haven't accomplished that." And you beat yourself up, and you wind yourself up, and it does you no good, because whoever you're competing with doesn't know the anxiety that you're going through because you think that they're in a better place. You never know what people are going through, and what it took for them to be there, and how long it'll last. So, just worry about yourself, and I don't say worry, but just be in your own lane, and take what your calling is, devote yourself to whatever that is for a while, because it will all change. Kids grow up, that dynamic changes. Education, those dynamic changes. There's really nothing that you can really count on in life, and that's why you have to surrender to life and what it has to offer, but also be brave enough and have the courage to, if you get something that is an offer that you didn't plan on, to be able to have the bravery to go for it, because that's when you get another gift that you weren't even planning on. And I know that was a long, long answer. Doryn Wallach: No! Oh my God, that was such an amazing, wonderful, true answer, and I'm sitting there nodding my head, because to hear that, this is exactly why I'm having you here. I think we need to hear that. I say over and over again, especially now with the pandemic, it's very unfair to women at times. We don't get to get to where we want to be, if we want to be an involved mom, and as much as we choose to do that job, we're also not able to achieve that things that we want to do in life until maybe later on. But that was such a wonderful reminder for anyone who's feeling that, just to know. I think you don't get that reward though, when your kids are younger. I think you later on realize, "Oh I did a good job, and they turned out okay." Vanessa Williams: But cherish those younger days. It makes me crazy when people are rolling their eyes and like, "Take my kids! Please!" And, "I can't wait until this is over!" And you've bitched and moaned about those amazing, formative years that you never get back, because kids grow so quickly. And they absorb everything, so if they see your attitude about, "Uh, kids suck. My marriage sucks. Being at home sucks," that influences them, and they internalize that, too. So you've got to really as Stephen Sondheim, of saying, many times, when I was a witch on Broadway, "Careful of the things you say, children will listen. Careful of the things you do, children will see and learn." So, just be mindful of your parenting skills and take a breath and enjoy it, because it's going to go so quickly, my oldest is 33 years old already, and I would love to have grandkids now, so I can live through those amazing formative moments all over again. Doryn Wallach: Thank you for that reminder, because I'm guilty of all of that. It's been a hard few months for parents. Speaking of your kids, you're a mother, so your 20 year old Sasha, 27 year old Devin, 31 Jillian, and 33 year old Melanie. Three girls in there, we'll get into that later. Do you think your kids ever felt or feel pressure living up to everything that you've accomplished? And if so, how did you raise them, or are you raising them to not feel that pressure? Vanessa Williams: I think the most pressure for my eldest, Melanie, was, we were living in LA, very similar to what happened this past year, Rodney King was beaten, it was captured on video and then all the cops got off, and violence ensued and basically it was looting and rioting and all kinds of upheaval, and I ended up leaving LA in '92 on the heels of that, because I said, "I will not live in fear, trying to raise my kids, driving down the street, and not feeling safe in the town that I choose to live in." So I moved back to my hometown, and I didn't plan on it, because we looked at a bunch of houses back here in Westchester, New York, but I actually found a house that I loved in Chautauqua, which is where I grew up. So my kids grew up in the same schools, the same school system that I grew up in. So the pressure wasn't, are you going to be an entertainer, I think the pressure was, me as a student, going through the school system. There were certainly teachers that were still teaching that I had that my kids ended up having. So I think the expectation of what myself and my brother were, back in the day in the hometown, was a little stronger than what people expected them to be in the media. And Melanie, ended up going away to private school, because she just didn't want the comparison. Jillian was fine with the comparison, and loved the public school that I went to. And Devin was fine, and Sasha bounced back and forth from New York to LA, because I was doing "Ugly Betty," and then I came back and then I did "Desperate Housewives," and back again, and now she's in college out in California. So there was comparison that way, because it's a hometown girl coming back home. The social media aspect wasn't as bad as it is now, for them growing up. So the comparisons weren't as blatant as what my 20 year old has to deal with, being on Snapchat and Instagram, and having also, Sasha has a famous father, who's three time Laker World Champion, and a huge presence in Los Angeles. So if anyone had to deal with most of that, it would be Sasha, and she's dealing it really, really well in stride. So, luckily, I think being, I don't want to say grounded, but not living, we don't live in the middle of the city, we don't live with paparazzi at the end of a gate, constantly being judged. They do have somewhat normal lives, and I think that really helped temper the comparisons and that drive to stay relevant, because you are the child of a celebrity. Doryn Wallach: By the way, I don't know you well, but I'm guessing that you, from just what I know, have really told your kids to be who they are and follow what they want to do and not feel that they need to do what you've done. Vanessa Williams: Absolutely. My parents are music teachers, so music was a requirement in our household. We all had to play instruments, and until we graduated from high school, but as a result, I'm a musician that can walk into a studio and read music and play the piano, and I'm not just the girl singer behind a mic looking at a lyric sheet and saying, "Can you hum it to me sweetie?" My parents said, "Well, whatever you want to do, make sure you're skilled at it and have an education. So my kids, they were certainly creative. Their fathers are all creative and come from creative families, so Jillian has a band called, "Lion Babe." It didn't surprise me that she would be in the entertainment business, because she's danced her whole life and has a spectacular stage presence. Melanie, as well, she's a Pilates instructor, but she had a long dance history, and is very creative, and uses her body as her business, but also it's her art. My son is a really creative guy, and has designed sneakers and does graphic designs and plays music and does his own mixes and stuff. And then Sasha is a filmmaker and an actress and has done television work already. The kids all grew up watching me read scripts, giving them the opportunity to say, "Oh, can you run this scene with me?" They all play instruments, they all were immersed. They've been on Broadway in my dressing rooms. They've been in my trailers when I'm on movie set. They've been in my dressing rooms on TV sets. So they understand how hard it is to work, but they also get the making of whatever I do, and I will support them, because they're passionate and they've got a great work ethic. Doryn Wallach: Oh, that's so wonderful. So I have a 13 year old girl, and I heard you say, I believe it was in a podcast, I loved this, so I need you to expand on it though, because as you said it, I was, "More, more, more. I need more. I need more." You said, "They go in like lambs, and they come out like lions. And they can't help their hormones." You said to have compassion, don't reason with them, they will come back. The minute they said, "It's a girl." I was like, "Oh f- I'm going to screw this up and she's going to hate me." So tell me a little bit more about that, because I thought that little piece of advice and wisdom is so helpful for those of us who are about to step into the teen years. Vanessa Williams: Well just as women go through their change of life, and become erratic and become not who they are, I can remember like, "Geez, I hate the way I'm treating people. I hate the way I sound. I hate what I'm doing." It's because your hormones are out of whack, and that's what happens in seventh grade, usually. You're cuing up to get your period, you're still a child, but your hormones are starting to activate, and your girls are lashing out because they're getting this surge of hormonal energy that they don't know how to deal with it. And as mothers, we are the safest place to fall, we are the safest place to lash out, because they know we will always love them no matter how crazy they act, and what histrionics they'll display, they know, even their dad I think they have more respect for than their moms because moms know that we can take it, but we'll always be there. So, I say again, be patient, because they really can't help themselves. And I think when I look back, I was the only girl. My mom, I would say, she was very strict. And my dad was the one who was the soft place to really talk about things and vent and not be judged. My mother had high expectations and there was not a lot of leeway to be free. So when I felt that I was bitchy or impatient because my hormones were raging, it would be, "Check yourself. How dare you. Excuse me. Go to your room," instead of having it be like, "Okay, what's going on with you? Let's sit down. Okay, let me give you a quick neck rub. All right, go to your room, and we'll talk about anything when you've calmed down." That's what I would've liked, that's what I did not get, and that's kind of what I have used as a practice with my girls as their... I got very active with my first one, because I was doing what I remembered. "How dare you, get to your room. You don't speak that way." By the second, by the time Jillian reached that, I understood what she was going through, and gave her space. And again, I'm not saying be completely, take abuse from your kids and don't put them in check. I'm saying, just be aware of what they're going through. Have some compassion, set limits for sure, but don't react to their reaction, because then you never win. They're lashing out at you, then you're lashing out back, then they resent you, then you resent them. And you're also, as a mother, it's the death of the child that you loved that relationship with. So that's kind of what you really get pissed at as a mom. Like, "Wait a minute, what happened to the beautiful, lovely, adoring child that I raised? Who is this kid?" So you're almost mad at the concept, as opposed to this poor girl who can't help herself. Doryn Wallach: Right. Not to mention, we're also going through our own hormonal changes. Vanessa Williams: Right. Doryn Wallach: So the patience level is definitely hard sometimes, but that's great advice, and it is really hard sometimes though to take that advice. Vanessa Williams: I mention it in my book that you mention, the "You Have No Idea," that one of my great lessons was, I would get in a huff, walk down the hall, and slam my door. And they would say, "Don't slam the door." Doryn Wallach: And they took your door off. Vanessa Williams: Yep. My dad went in the garage, got his tool kit out and literally just took the door off the hinges and put the door in the garage, and said, "At this point, you don't deserve privacy. So you will not get your door back until we say you can." Doryn Wallach: I love your relationship with your mom. She was obviously very tough on you in many ways, but she also seems like she inspired so much of who you are. And obviously your relationship with your father was so beautiful, and I'm really sorry to hear that you don't have him in your life anymore. I actually teared up when I read that in the book, because it was from page one, it was just clear how special your relationship was, so I'm sorry for that. Vanessa Williams: I look at my parents, and they were a great duo, because my dad was nothing but sweetness in life. I mean, he certainly, there were parameters, but he was the soft, loving, gentle, warm, huge hugs that he'd squeeze you, and my mom was the task master. And I see myself, as I age, and I don't have him, but a lot of my friends don't have their moms, a lot of my cousins don't have their moms, and my mom has become the one that everyone, "Oh are you going to bring your mom to the barbecue? Oh please bring your mom to the party," because not only is she the life of the party, but she's that living embodiment of, "I'm still here." And just like Elaine Stritch with saying on Broadway, "She has a spunk about her." I mean, even with COVID, she's, "I'm not going to get COVID, I refuse. I refuse to get sick." Of course, all the protocol, she's diligent about that, but she's like, "Life is here to live and I'm not getting sick." And she walks every day, she's driving her car faster than ever. I was like, "Mom, you need to slow down." Her fire, because if I said to my dad, "I want to be a teacher," he would be completely fine with that. My mother would say, "Well, you know you're really good at dancing, maybe you should think about being the first black Rockette." Those were her nuggets of, "I see it, and I see what you can be, and it's going to take some work, but I believe you can do it." So she's the real one that sees opportunity and would say, "Go for it. Go for it." My father believed in me, my mother was like, "You can do it, you better get in there. This is your chance." Doryn Wallach: Now, you live nextdoor to your mom, is that right? Vanessa Williams: My mom lives nextdoor to me. After my dad passed, and they, the house that I grew up in is like five miles away. After my dad passed, she was there for a few years and she just said, "Listen, this is really," my dad took care of everything and it was a lot, and she said, "I want to give this house to another family." And the house nextdoor to mine, my neighbor had passed away, and the sons were selling it, and she ended up buying the house nextdoor to mine, and tore it down and built her dream house, and so she's living nextdoor to me. So I see her every day and the dogs come over and we get the paper and say a quick hi, and then I walk back across the yard to my house. Doryn Wallach: Oh, that's so nice. Many of us, at my age, are entering this time in our lives where we sometimes feel that we're all the sudden parenting our parents, or are starting to feel like we have to do some things. And my parents are in their seventies, my step-father is almost 80. So they're at that age where they don't need me to take care of them yet, but there are times where I need to remind them about things and they get mad at me for parenting them, but sounds like your mother's very self-sufficient, but are you feeling that you're kind of coming into that role at all with her? And how do you have balance and boundaries with that? Vanessa Williams: Well, her problem is she's so self-sufficient that I'll see her on the ladder, trying to blow off the leaves on the eave in the gutter. Like, "Mom!" Doryn Wallach: Oh my God. Vanessa Williams: "There are people that can do that." Or one day I came over and she had, her lip was swollen, she had a scratch under her eye, I was like, "What happened?" She's like, "Oh well, I was just trying to fix this and I tripped and fell because I was looking at the neighbor driving up." And I was like, "Mom, you have to," my thing is I'm trying to slow her down. Doryn Wallach: Yeah! Vanessa Williams: Because she still thinks, well, she can, but she will put up her own tree, and climb up a ladder, and change the light bulbs, and do gardening by herself, and have the wheelbarrow. I love her for that, it'll keep her young forever, but those are the things I have to manage so she won't hurt herself anymore than she already has. Doryn Wallach: Right. So that's an opposite problem. I remember my mother begging my grandfather to stop driving at like 86, and he was a terrible driver and he refused to do that. So the last thing I really want to talk to you about, that I found so impressive that you had mentioned, you had talked about on a podcast, co-parenting. And I have a lot of friends who are going through divorces at this age, and you said something along the lines of, "I never wanted our kids to panic when mom and dad were in the same room. So kids come first, I wanted to make it zen." And I think you said your ex-husbands took your kids on a ski trip together. Vanessa Williams: Together, without me, yeah. They did. Doryn Wallach: So I am a child of divorce, and I just did a podcast on divorce. And I can't tell you how much I appreciate this, because my, I always tell my parents, I said, "Your divorce did not effect me, but the way you handled it, and continue to, is what effects me." The fact that they were never able to be a team in any way, shape, or form, and put me in the middle of all of it, is really what effected me. So I think bravo to you, for trying to make that work. I know it's not always possible with everybody, people have different situations where they can't do that. What is your best co-parenting advice for other women to make it work? Vanessa Williams: Well, I always put the children first. And again, I did not want to have one of my kids getting married and be like, "Oh my God, Mom and Dad are going to be in the same aisle. What's going to happen?" Because that happened with my first husband, and like, "Oh my God, is your dad going to bring the girlfriend who was the one that broke up the marriage?" All this drama, and it ended up being fine, but I never wanted to have that burden for my kids to have to worry about. But the bottom line is, and again, I think I go through it hard, and I process it, and then I'm out the other side. So that's how I deal with crises, that's how I deal with pain and grief. I feel hard, I feel strong, I will cry for days, I will, but I commit to it and then get through it on the other side. So the people that are stuck, is what brings disease, what you never can get over, what kids have to deal with. When you can't get over something, that does a disservice to you and your own health. I married wonderful men, they were great men, some were not great fathers when they needed to be, but they were all great men, and I have no regrets with the choices that I made marrying them and having children by them. So, what happens within a marriage ebbs and flows, and years go by and people make choices and stuff, but you have to again, take a breath and have your children come first, and learn to put whatever the drama, whatever the instances, that's the past. Turn that past, that history, into wisdom, so you're not holding on to negativity and you're not holding on to that story. The story is something that was in the past, and you have to transform it into wisdom, and then that'll carry you for the rest of your life. So, it's like ticking off a box, yes, I've been through it, I've felt it, now, what's next? And you embrace your exes for the people, I see, who they are. And the reasons that attracted me, they still have. A sense of humor doesn't go away, their valor, being courageous, being really smart, those things don't go away. So it's much easier for yourself, to let that stuff go, and convert it into wisdom, and it's almost like a clean slate, and then you can have a wonderful. I mean, I had for Thanksgiving, two of my exes at my brother's house for dinner. They walked in, "Oh man, how are you doing? Blah, blah, blah," chit chat, and they're friends. So, you can do it. It's possible. Doryn Wallach: It's funny, my parents, who would never be in the same room together probably, about six years ago, started coming together for Thanksgiving with my brother and his kids, solely because of the grandkids. From what I've seen from my friend's experience, I feel like it's harder for the men to let go. I see the women taking the higher road, and then men are, not all the time, but in a lot of situations are the ones that are, I don't know if it's an ego thing, or what it is, but when my friends have tried to make amends and just try to say, "Let's do this for the kids," they've had push back, animosity, whatever it may be from the men. Vanessa Williams: It also depends on who's decision it was. Doryn Wallach: Exactly. Vanessa Williams: And who went first, and what the reasons are. But it would help if you would, and I certainly don't want to say, stroke their ego, but it's recognizing their goodness. What are they good at and why did you fall for them in the first place? And what can they add to your kid's lives that you don't want missing? Because again, if you lose them, then you lose a big part of, unless they're obviously doing something that's completely disruptive and abusing your kids, that's a protection thing that moms jump in and have to, but if it's a personality thing, if it's a... Kids need both of that, because they're half and half and they need to feel valued because it's part of their DNA. Doryn Wallach: Wow, Vanessa, every single thing that you've said has been so wonderful and so helpful. Vanessa Williams: Good. Doryn Wallach: Really, truly, everyone is going to just fall in love with you. Vanessa Williams: Oh good. Doryn Wallach: So, tell me, I know that you have to go, currently, you are working on a few things, "Black Theater United," your new national bestselling children's book, and you're heading back to the West End in London this Spring to open "City of Angels." Can you tell us a little bit more about each of those things? Vanessa Williams: Yeah. I was actually kind of busy during the pandemic. Doryn Wallach: Yeah, really. Vanessa Williams: My children's book, "Bubble Kisses," came out and it was the perfect time because everyone had opportunities to read to their children, and it also comes with a great song called, "Bubble Kisses." And for those that are sick of "Baby Shark," go get "Bubble Kisses." It comes with a CD and you can also download it on iTunes and Spotify and stuff, but it's a great swinging song, and the animation is gorgeous. So that was fun, that was my first that I've done. Doryn Wallach: What made you want to do that? Vanessa Williams: Well, "Bubble Kisses" was a song that I had been sitting on for over 25 years, and I kept saying, "Oh when I do a children's album, I'll put it on the children's album," and I just never got around to it. And I was actually, Sasha was in her freshman year at Chapman, and I was at one of the barbecues for the parents, and another mom came up to me, who had a son that was a freshman, and said, "Listen, if you ever think about writing a book, I'd love to work with you." And I said, "Well actually I wrote one with my mom called, 'You Have No Idea,' but I've got another idea." And she was also based in New York, and once I flew back we met, and Theresa Thompson at Sterling Publishing said, "I love the idea," and we worked on, "Bubble Kisses." So hopefully this is will be first of series, which would be wonderful. So that was just perfect timing. And "City of Angels," which got cut short a week before we were about to open on the Garrick Theater on the West End in London. We're going to do kind of like truncated version, a concert version of it, the end of January. We start rehearsals January 21st, but the end of January, early February, we'll be at the Palace Theater in London, just kind of, people can see it, it's a bigger theater, so they'll be socially distanced. And then we hope to have the full production probably by the early, like June we're looking to actually have the run so we can actually open it. But that's wonderful, and when I was flying over the first time to start rehearsals, January of 2020, my daughter was sitting next to me, and she was on break, and she was looking forward to hang out in London with me for a couple weeks. And I said, "Oh yeah, let me read the list of the cast members. Na, na, Theo James." And she's like, "What Mom?" I go, "Yeah, Theo James." "Theo James!" She bursts into tears, she's like, "You don't understand! He is my dream! You have to tell!" She freaked out, because he's a huge "Divergent" star, and that was her, she had the books, she went and saw the movie. Yeah, so she was very, very impressed. And of course, she met him. So she's anxious to see him again once we get up and running again. So Theo James plays Stone, so anyone who's a "Divergent" fan, he's amazing. He's a great actor, but I had no idea he was such a good singer. Doryn Wallach: Isn't it the best when your kid thinks you're kind of cool. Vanessa Williams: Yes. Finally. Doryn Wallach: Let me say to my kids, I'm like, "I don't understand. I'm cool." My daughter's like, "You are so not cool." I mean, I was trying to impress her with my interview with you today, and no offense, that didn't work. Vanessa Williams: I'm way too old. Even, she's probably too old, I did the Hannah Montana movie because my daughter was obsessed with Mylie back in the day. And that was 2008, so that's still a long, long way ago. Doryn Wallach: Yeah, she was one. Vanessa Williams: Yeah, right now, I'm doing the voice of Captain Beakman in "Tots," so I'm pretty big with the two and three year olds. Doryn Wallach: I'm sure after she listens to the podcast, if she listens to the Podcast, she will be impressed. Thank you so much for doing this with me. I fell in love with you after reading your book, and I don't even know you. And I know that Kristy is one of my closest friends, it's very clear to me why you became friends. I think maybe when the pandemic's over, the three of us need to go do some salsa dancing together or something. Vanessa Williams: Yeah, come visit her. She's now a neighbor in Westchester. Doryn Wallach: I know. And I haven't really announced this to anybody yet, but I'm actually moving to Westchester too, in January. Vanessa Williams: Oh nice! Doryn Wallach: So Kristy's very happy I'm coming. Vanessa Williams: Oh good! Good, good, good! Well when you move and you're all settled, let's have coffee for sure. Doryn Wallach: I'd love to do that. I would love to do that. Best of luck with all your upcoming success! Vanessa Williams: Thank you so much! Doryn Wallach: Okay. Vanessa Williams: All right. Doryn Wallach: Thank you so much for listening. Remember to give yourself permission and know that you are not alone. Don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any episodes. Reviews are always appreciated, and you can reach me by email at itsnotacrisis@gmail , Instagram, It's Not a Crisis Podcast, and please join our Facebook Group as well. Until next time, just remember, it's not a crisis!

EPISODE 21 In this episode, Doryn chats with Dr. Lindsay Gibson, a clinical psychologist and psychotherapist. They talk about the effects that emotionally immature people (especially parents) can have on us even as adults, how we can manage our relationships with them and heal the conflicts that we’ve had with them. Dr. Gibson holds both a Masters and Doctoral Degree in clinical psychology. She has been a psychotherapist for over thirty years, working in diverse settings such as the Juvenile Court system, community mental health, psychiatric hospitals, group practice, and solo practice. She is also the author of Who You Were Meant to Be, Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents and Recovering from Emotionally Immature Parents. Since its publication in 2015, her second book has been a repeated Amazon #1 bestseller in its category and has been translated into fourteen languages. EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Doryn Wallach: Welcome to It's Not A Crisis. I am your host Doryn Wallach, I'm an entrepreneur, a mother of two, a wife and a 40 something, trying to figure out what is happening in this decade. Why is no one talking about it? I created this podcast to help women in their late 30s and 40s to figure out what is going on in our mind, body, soul, and life. We may laugh, we may cry, we may get frustrated, but most importantly, my goal is to make this next chapter of life positive. I'm also full of my own questions and I'm here to go on this journey with you. So let's do it together. Hey, everyone. Welcome to another episode. Thank you, again, for joining me. I am your host, Doryn Wallach and so excited to have you here. I am thrilled about this episode because I read this book a while ago and it was life-changing for me. And I was honored that Dr. Gibson said that she would come on the show. So this is going to be an amazing episode that you're going to learn so much from. And I promise you if you read... Anyone, everyone should read that book. When you read the book, you will realize how life-changing it is. Lindsay Gibson has been a clinical psychologist for over 30 years, specializing in helping people find their true selves and recover their self-esteem after dealing with emotionally immature people. Her psychotherapy work has included both public and private practice settings. She also was an adjunct assistant professor for many years, training doctoral students in a graduate psychology program. As an author, Dr. Gibson has written three books, Who You Were Meant to Be, Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents and Recovering from Emotionally Immature Parents. Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents has been a five-star rated bestseller on Amazon in various categories with over 3000 reviews and has been translated into 14 languages, that's because the book is phenomenal. Her next book, A Self Care Companion for Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents will be released and fall 2021, and I'm so excited for that one. So without further ado, let's welcome Dr. Lindsay Gibson to the show. Welcome to the show Dr. Lindsay Gibson, I am so honored that you are here today and that you chose to come on, It's Not a Crisis. Lindsay Gibson: Oh, it's absolutely my pleasure. Thanks for having me, Doryn. Doryn Wallach: I have been obsessed with your book since I first read it. And I use it as a reference in my life. And I just wanted to explain quickly sort of how I came across it without revealing too much about my family's privacy, but a therapist had said to me at some point to read this, and I said, "Well, I don't..." I mean, I wasn't neglected, I wasn't rejected, I had some things as a child, but I was very loved by my parents. And she said, "No, I know. It doesn't matter. Just read it. I promise you we'll take something from it." And so I did, and I couldn't believe how loudly it spoke to me on so many different levels, and as I was reading it, I was thinking about 12 different friends that could benefit from this book. It just describes so many people that I know and why they're the way they are. And these are friends with lovely, wonderful parents. But the way their parents were raised and their parents were raised often affects the generations and things get carried down. And we obviously want to try to resolve those things as much as possible with our parents, but also parenting our own children. And I found that your book allowed me to forgive my parents for things that were beyond their control. And that to me is the biggest gift ever because they're getting older and I never want to feel that when they're gone, I wasn't able to understand, and after reading your book, I actually sat down with each of them and I asked them a lot of questions and it really helped me to understand them better. So, thank you for coming on. I think this is going to be a really popular podcast, and I think a lot of people are going to be running out to buy this when we're done. Lindsay Gibson: Oh, well, you know I can not contain my curiosity. What sorts of things did you ask your parents? Doryn Wallach: I asked them about, "What were your parents like emotionally? What kind of pressures did they put on you? Or what were their parents like? How were they treated affectionately? What were rules like in your family?" I've said this on other podcasts, my mom's really mad at me, but I already said it, so I'm going to say it again. My mom had an alcoholic father and my dad, I think his parents were wonderful, but a little bit emotionally distant at a certain point in his mother's life when he was a lot younger. I think she suffered from post-partum depression, and it was kind of undiagnosed at that time. I was able to hear them and they both wanted to get out of their homes really young. And they got married at 23, and they met at 16, and eventually they divorced, and it was very traumatic for my mother who also lost her mother, and her grandmother, and my dad's mother who she was close with all at a certain time of her life. So then I think my dad was just one more loss, and then when she went through divorce with my dad, she had a hard time with it, and I suffered as a child because I sort of had to step in and parent a little bit. All right, it was just interesting to hear them speak, and it just made me actually so much closer with them. Lindsay Gibson: Yeah. I just had to ask you, because a lot of times people will have the instinct that they want to go to their parents, especially, after they've read a book like mine that points out these dynamics. But the way that they go to their parents is often either... And I think these are fine because I think they're honest communications, but they'll go to them in the spirit of, "Let me tell you what you've done to me," or they'll go at it with a sort of the expectation that they will be able to convince or persuade the parent to be different if only they understood what they were doing to them. But your approach was really cool because what you did was, you went in and you asked them questions that were likely not to make them defensive, or to make them sort of the object of your interest, and that always, that calms all of us down. Doryn Wallach: Let me tell you, both of my parents are super stubborn and defensive. So they're slow to warm up to things, but they usually come around. So I knew that going in... And I just sent the book to my mom the other day, and my stepfather got really angry and was like, "That's ridiculous. You're an amazing mother, tell her dah, dah, dah." I explained, I said, "Mom, I'm not giving you this book to say that you're a terrible mother. I think you're going to learn about your own parents in this book. I think it's going to help you to understand who you are." And I think it's really an important thing for everybody to do that work. So she got it, but he's very... He's been my stepfather since I was 12, basically. He's very black and white about certain things, as are some men. That approach I think really works, and we can talk about that a little bit later, I think it's important not to blame, I think it's important to ask questions and emphasize with them from their own journey. I do empathize with my mom, and dad, and how they grew up and also the generations that came before them and the way that they dealt with parenting. I think it's probably confusing, can you explain what emotional immaturity is and how we would know if we were surrounded by it in our lives? Lindsay Gibson: Sure. Yeah. Well, emotional maturity and immaturity is kind of like, if you think about a person's development as proceeding along these sort of parallel lines. Like you can have your line of emotional development. The way a three-year-old thinks is not the way a 12 year old thinks. You can have another line that has to do with your social development. How a three-year-old relates to other people is different from a 12 year old, you know, like that. But the emotional maturity is its own line of development. And you can have very uneven lines. Like if you want to think about it, you could think about any kind of graph, like imagine a stock market graph, only this time you're measuring strength of qualities. So in some quality, some lines of development, you might be very high and others you might be low, you know like that. If you are emotionally immature, but you are intellectually mature, that's very confusing to people because they say, "Well, this person is very smart. They're very accomplished, they're very successful, how could they be immature in any way, because they're functioning so well as an adult?" But emotional maturity, like I say, is its own particular developmental line of development. So for instance, if you're emotionally immature, it means that you're functioning as a much younger person might do, who was kind of stuck at a certain level emotionally, even though they developed in a bunch of other areas and often they get stuck because of some kind of trauma. It's like something happens to them that that kind of makes it unsafe for them to continue developing in their emotional development. But basically what happens is that they end up being stuck at a level where they're functioning in terms of being able to handle their emotions, being able to deal with reality and being able to have empathy for other people, may be more like a four year old, than a 40 year old. And so if you think about what four year olds are like, you think that they're egocentrism, everything's about me, everything is taken personally, their emotions dominate their view of the world. Like one of the things that emotionally immature people do, which is very hard to spot until you know what it is, and then you see it immediately. They do this thing that's called affect of realism. And that means that they determine reality on the basis of how it feels to them. So reality is what I feel it to be. If you are more objective in your view of reality, it just staggers your belief that someone could sit there and tell you something that is so untrue, factually, but in terms of how it feels to them, that's what they are basing their opinion of reality on. And so their relationship to reality is that they either deny it, distort it or dismiss it. And it's all around defending themselves from any kind of insecurity, or a threat to their self-esteem or to their security. So they have a great fear of emotions, other people's emotions, and of emotional intimacy, because emotions are kind of stressful and emotionally immature people have a very low tolerance for stress. Emotions make it so that we have to be flexible and very in the moment, and they have a lot of trouble doing that because they get terrified when they are not held together by their rules and their beliefs, and often they're kind of rigidity. So they maintain their self-esteem and their sense of stability by doing things like blaming other people, insisting that you stay in a certain role with them, expecting you to mirror them, that is to be exactly how they need you to be, and they make you responsible for their self-esteem and their emotional stability. So you fall into a... Like you were talking about the parentification that happened with you. It falls to you to keep them happy or to restabilize them. And if you were a child when that happens, that really sucks energy out of you, and it's very emotionally demanding to be around these people. The other last thing I would mention about it, is that, emotionally immature people have a very poor, what they call receptive capacity. And that means that even though they seem very needy in terms of what they require from you in the relationship, no matter how much you give them, it's never enough. It's kind of like pouring water through a sieve, it's like they continue to, quote, unquote, need what you have to give them, but as you are giving it to them, it just like it doesn't stick. And they are momentarily comforted by the interaction, but it's not something that they can take in and grow from. It's something that they have a continued need for, and that can make them very draining. Doryn Wallach: So how does that differ from narcissism? Lindsay Gibson: First of all, I stayed away from any psychopathological terms, any diagnostic terms in the book, because once you slap a label on somebody, it tends to demonize them a little bit. Doryn Wallach: Yeah, yeah. Lindsay Gibson: Yeah. And nobody wants to demonize their parents. Doryn Wallach: No. I think that was the point of your book, is not to demonize. Lindsay Gibson: Right. Once you say that someone is narcissistic or some other diagnostic category, then the whole quest becomes, "Well, how are they, maybe, not narcissistic? So, is this a right diagnosis or not?" And I didn't want any obsessing about that, I just wanted to describe a set of behaviors and interactions that is common with these people. So think of it like there's emotional immaturity as a general characteristic that has many signs that are pretty invariable across people. So that's one big subset of an issue and then narcissism would be a subset of that because not all emotionally immature people would strike you immediately as narcissistic, but a lot of people who are emotionally immature will have some narcissistic qualities. Doryn Wallach: Got it. Okay. That makes sense. And how would you describe someone who's emotionally immature? Lindsay Gibson: Yeah. Well, emotionally immature people are easy to be around because they kind of have their batteries included. You're not always feeling like they're looking to you to calm them down, make them feel better. In fact, they're more likely to be doing that for you. Basically, they are flexible. They have a good sense of self, so they're not depending on other people to bolster their self-esteem or stabilize them when they get upset. They're able to do that internally because they have a well-developed articulated sense of self that can be flexible and oriented toward reality as they cope, because they're not consumed with insecurity and anxiety all the time. They tend to be more complex people in that they can think and feel at the same time for the emotionally immature person, they can think, and they can feel, but they have a really hard time doing those two things together. And that's why when people kind of come at them in a way that makes them anxious, their thinking function shuts down and they become extremely rigid. But with an emotionally immature person, they are able to kind of step back and continue to hear what you're saying objectively, even if they don't like it, even if it's upsetting to them, they retain their ability to think and feel at the same time. And then a huge difference is that the emotionally immature person is able to feel empathy for the other person, and they are able to put themselves in your shoes, and this makes them able to be fair in their dealings with people. They're able to basically love, they're fine with emotional intimacy, they can tolerate emotion, which is not something that emotionally immature people are able to do. They get scared when things get too emotionally intimate. Doryn Wallach: Do you feel that emotionally immature people tend to feel like everyone's out to get them in some ways? Lindsay Gibson: Yeah. It may not be a clinical paranoia, but it makes sense because our coping mechanisms and our defenses are also on a kind of a hierarchy of maturity, and down there in the level of immaturity, psychological defenses are geared toward blaming and projecting responsibility on to other people. So there is that kind of paranoid quality of seeing the problem as being outside of themselves and blaming other people, definitely. Doryn Wallach: Before we go further, what led you to write these books? Lindsay Gibson: I can still tell you kind of how I felt sitting in the office when it hit me. So I was in a psychotherapy with someone and I don't remember who it is now, but I was sitting there with them and they were describing... I think they were fairly new client and they were describing about their childhood, and their parent, and their continuing problem with their parent and what was going on. And as I'm sitting there, I'm thinking, "Wow, they're parents sounds like a four year old." And then the next thought that hit me was, "What is this person doing here?" When the real problem is this emotionally immature person who is causing all this havoc in the family, and this person has come to see me is full of anxiety because they're having to deal with this difficult person. So it was sort of like, "Wait a minute, the wrong person is in my office." Doryn Wallach: But the right person wouldn't come to your office? Lindsay Gibson: That's a big right. Doryn Wallach: Right. Lindsay Gibson: Yeah. Doryn Wallach: Because they're never wrong. Lindsay Gibson: That combination of, "Wow, what is this person doing here?" And man, their parents sound like children. But I also... Doryn, you came to this through my training because I did a lot of training in psychological testing, and in psychological testing, one of the things that makes a personality description useful to another clinician, say the person who's requested the testing of their client. The thing that's really helpful to them is when you can say, "This person psychologically is functioning like a five-year-old or this person is functioning like a 15 year old." If you have that developmental perspective, when you're writing up a personality evaluation, it really helps people quickly get the idea of what they're working with and what some of the obstacles are going to be. So I was really trained heavily in developmental psychology. Doryn Wallach: That makes sense. And by the way your book has 2,702 ratings on Amazon, five stars, number one bestseller in parent and adult relationships, that must feel good, but why do you think it's so popular? What need did it hit? Lindsay Gibson: Well, I think it put into words something that had not been put into words before, and of course, you know the power of naming something. Once you can name something and describe it, you can deal with it so much better. And when you read something that describes an experience that you've had, and not only describes it, but tells you why, it's a very powerful experience of being empathized with and being seen. Like what a lot of readers have communicated to me, is that they say, it's like I was there, in their living room when they were growing up. Doryn Wallach: Yes, yes. That's how I felt. Lindsay Gibson: Yeah. Or like how did you know all these things about me? Doryn Wallach: Right. So funny. Sometimes my listeners say that to me, they're like, "How did you know I was going through this?" Lindsay Gibson: Yeah. Yeah. So I think that that seemed to be the main thing that people felt. I think for the first time they felt really mirrored, like really seen, really responded to in an area that had caused them great distress, but in a kind of an underlying background way, and also in a way that they didn't feel like they had a leg to stand on in terms of complaining about it, or even knowing what to complain about, they just knew that they felt bad. And I think the popularity of the book was that it put into words something that people were trying to get a handle on, but they couldn't conceptualize because they didn't have the words for it. Doryn Wallach: And I think that you... I'm not sure if I said this at the beginning before we recorded, but I think it relates to so many different types of people that I think you... The title of the book is good because it makes you think a little bit, but also, I have to sometimes convince people, "No, no, no. I know you think you might not relate to this book, but you will, I promise you." And every time I have done that... A friends has said, "Oh my God, I really did." And even with my own mother, I said, "You know, I really think you should read this." I think her mother died young at 58, my mom was 28 and her father died later in life, but it was a little difficult at that point in his life, and I really think that she could see her parents in here. It's interesting also generationally, I'm actually having a guest come on in a few weeks, she is a generational expert. And she's going to be just talking about different generations and the way that they were raised and the way that they were taught about emotion, or they were taught about parenting or what was happening in their lives. Lindsay Gibson: Oh yeah. I'll look forward to that one. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. Yeah. But I think that your book somewhat speaks to that too, without being as detailed as that. I'll tell you what I was reading this book, and as a mom, I'm always fearful of being a bad mom and I want to do the best I can. And I love being a mom, but I do sometimes, like all of us, I'll see myself doing something, that maybe one of my parents did that I didn't like. And it's scary to me because I'm like, "Oh my God, I couldn't even help what I just did." I was modeling something that I only have ever known. I guess, how do we, A, not be so hard on ourselves if that does happen, but, B, how do we learn to improve upon that, if we feel that we're being emotionally immature or that we're mirroring something that our parents did? Lindsay Gibson: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Somebody once said, it doesn't matter what you do, it matters what you do next. And that's not absolutely true. Doryn Wallach: Right, right. Lindsay Gibson: But I think for a lot of things, it is true, especially in relationships. So I'm just curious after you did something that you wondered about, did you have a sense that you wished you hadn't done that? Doryn Wallach: Yes. Lindsay Gibson: Okay. All right. See what that tells me, is that what you did Doryn, was you self reflected, right? So you reflected on your behavior, you reflected on the feeling that you had after you did it, that's the main thing. So you were able to self reflect, feel the feeling and realize that you didn't feel good and maybe you even had empathy for your child, because you could see that however you respond to them, didn't help them. So in those cases, if you continue to process why you may have responded like that, and you come up with the answer, like, yeah, I wanted to be a better mom, but that just hit me in an area that's very hard for me to talk about or very hard for me to think about. And so, I think I reacted defensively, just, I had a knee jerk reaction, and I'm not proud of that. I wish I hadn't, but it just kind of got me. That might be everything that goes on inside of you as you process what happened. But you can always go back to your child and say kind of the same thing to them. Like, "Honey, I want to talk to you about what happened yesterday." And then you might share with them some of your insights and it doesn't have to be a long involved psychoanalysis, but just that you realize that you got triggered by something and you reacted in a way that had you been able to stay calm or not be so surprised by it, maybe you would have handled it differently because you would have been able to think about how it would affect them and their feelings, and you can apologize. You can say, "I'm really sorry that I did that, and I hope that you'll forgive me." You're actively giving your child understanding and empathy when they probably have not asked for it at that point. You're going back in, you're saying, "Here's what..." And you're also modeling for them as a parent. "Here's what you can do when you stepped in it with somebody. You process what happened, you take responsibility, you go back in and you try to let the other person know that you're sorry, and ask them if they can forgive you." It's not only repairing... That's called relationship repair. You're not only repairing the relationship with your child around that incident, but you're also showing them, "Look, there are other options other than beating yourself up when you make a mistake and you can work it out with other people if you're sincere and authentic with them." Doryn Wallach: It's funny, my parents when they were younger, that was a lot harder for them, but as they get older now in their 70s, the first reaction is usually defensive and then they stop and process and come back and say, "You know what, you're right. I shouldn't have said it like that or whatever, or you have to understand that when I was growing up, it was different," or whatever it is, and I can see the difference in them as older adults and having process their own life. So I think that there's hope for stubborn parents who won't admit when they've done something wrong. Lindsay Gibson: Yeah. I know. I just want to mention something. Because I know that you gear your podcast to a certain age group that I believe it's the late 30s, 40s, am I correct? Doryn Wallach: Yeah. Lindsay Gibson: Okay. And so, if you think about everything that you are facing in that age group. I mean, where you are in your life, you're in the early to middle part of doing your career, if you have a career, you may be raising children, you certainly are dealing with all kinds of adult stresses because there's a great pressure to hit certain benchmarks of development in our society. And if you haven't hit this one by that time, like everybody freaks out, like life is over. But the pressure's on you from multiple fronts are likely to really make worse any underlying tendencies toward rigidity and insecurity, right? Because it's just so much more stress. And so emotionally immature people do not handle stress well, they're very impatient, they just can't handle it. But then you compare what is life like when you're in your 70s, and kind of a lot of these life questions have been answered one way or the other. I mean, life has happened. You're not waiting to find out what you're going to be in your life if you're going to make it. A lot of the suspenses is out of your life at that point over some of these major issues. And so, I think at that point in your life, you have... If you're fortunate, if you're fortunate, I should say, because I think life can get harder if you're not, but if you're fortunate and some of those stresses have been taken care of and you've moved into retirement, you have more resources available to maybe be able to come back. Not every parent is like that, like yours, but I think it makes sense that they could be, if they're in a time in their life, when they have less stuff on their plate. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. That's true. There are a lot of people who will never get through to their parents, and that's unfortunate. I'm lucky that mine were more receptive to listening. What do you think the biggest difficulty people face with their parents is? And also, we should also mention by the way that having emotional immaturity in your life doesn't necessarily always relate to your parents, right? As you said in your book, I think you can go on to see that you might find friendships or other relationships that mirror what you grew up with or what you were used to, and whether those are negative or positive. I think that I've learned that in friendships. Once I did this work, myself, I started to realize that like, "Oh, that's why I was friends with that girl." And I no longer am, but it was giving me something that I thought I needed based on what I needed as a kid. I'm not sure I'm explaining that correctly, but what are the difficulties that our generation is facing? Lindsay Gibson: Well, as I mentioned before, it's an incredibly busy time with all of these societal and developmental challenges. Have you done this by the age of 30? Have you done this by the age of 35? Have you done this by the age of 40? You have this... It's kind of like you're on a evaluation timeline. And this is all... It tends to be very subconscious. I don't know how many people come for therapy when they turn 30, or turned 40, or turned 50? We are keeping track at some level in our mind about how we're doing, but those ages, the late 30s and early 40s, that is when you are doing the career stuff, if you have children, you're doing that. And it's a very demanding age and you may be dealing with multiple drains on your time and your energy. Like if you are working and you have children, or you're trying to maintain a relationship. Doryn Wallach: And a lot of people are in care-taking mode for their parents, if that's right? Lindsay Gibson: Oh yeah. Yeah. That's right. That's right. Yeah. And then you have the additional issue of parents who are sort of coming in and wanting to be... Well, when I start to say involved in your life, but that's not really what I mean. Not that exactly, it's that they want to create the kind of role or story they want to have with you and maybe your children, or you and your life. So they may be ready for more visits, maybe they have more time on their hands. They want to have more time with their grandchildren, or they don't want to have anything to do with their grandchildren. Whatever it is when their emotional needs are coming in, and you are expected to stay in some rigid child mode with them that keeps them feeling secure and good about themselves. You can see the conflict that that would stir up because in that age group, you simply don't have the energy or the time to be doing that for your parents while everything else is demanding you in your life. And so, that's a time where the parent's demands or expectations can be especially honorous and they can also end up making you feel like you're being stretched way too thin, or that you're being intruded upon. Like there can be boundaries that you want to set, because maybe you want to do Thanksgiving with your own family this year, instead of traveling to be with your parents. These things are like greeted, not well, by emotionally immature parents because they don't have the flexibility to deal with change very well, as transitions are extremely stressful for them and their behavior tends to get worse when you're going through any kind of transition. So when you have to set boundaries with them, what often happens is that they don't see it, that you're in a bad way and you need to protect yourself, or you need to get some extra time to yourself, they take it personally, and they will challenge the boundaries that you set instead of saying, "Oh, okay. I understand, you must be exhausted." No. It's that, "Oh, I must be the worst mother ever then, or does this mean you're never coming home for a holiday, again?" They go into these disaster scenarios. It's very hard to be doing everything else that you're doing in your life and then to be dealing with older parents who may have expectations of you that really can't be met anymore because you have so much on your plate. And then if it's a care-taking mode with older parents, that just exacerbates it even more because people don't get more mature and more resilient when they get old and sick, they have fewer resources with which to deal with stress. So a lot more falls on people in your age group. Doryn Wallach: Right. And I think that boundaries are really difficult. I think our parents have this mentality of like, "I worked my butt off to get you where you are, and to get you into college, and a little bit of you owe me type of attitude," because of how they were raised and I think that there's that guilt that when we try to put up boundaries, we feel that we're not allowed to have those boundaries because we owe it to our parents. Lindsay Gibson: Absolutely. Yeah. And that is often very explicitly laid out there by the parent. "I paid for your college. I did this, I did that." Doryn Wallach: Right. I try not to do that with my kids, if I get annoyed with them on something, I try not to be like, "You know what? We work to do all this stuff for you guys, and we're always trying to make you happy, and you're so ungrateful and that." You get to that mode sometimes with that, because you feel like, "God, can I do nothing right?" Lindsay Gibson: You can gauge how well you've done with your kids, by what they're complaining about. So if they're complaining about that they haven't gotten this, or you haven't gotten to do that, that's a really high order complaint, as opposed to, "You don't listen to me, you hit me." Those are serious complaints, but you can kind of tell, because people will complain all the time. It doesn't matter what your circumstances are, human beings complain. And so, you have to look at the quality of the complaint to see how well you're doing. Not whether or not their complaining. Doryn Wallach: Oh, that's great advice. A lot of my podcast is about permission. And I find that myself in my 40s, I need people to give me permission and say, "It's okay. Or this is what it is." And I think as my children get older, you get a lot more feedback. I think when they're younger, it's a lot harder to not feel like you're doing a terrible job day in and day out because you're not seeing what you've created. So I guess even my kids at 10 and 13, when my children go somewhere and somebody says to me, "Oh, your kids were so polite, they have such good manners and they were so well behaved." And I'm like, "What? Really?" Lindsay Gibson: Doryn, I wanted to mention to what you we were saying about saying to your kid, "We've done all this for you and we've locked ourselves out for you and whatever." I don't think that that is, as a conversation, something that is detrimental to a child. Yes, the point is that you are trying to say, "Look in this relationship, you and me is two human beings. Okay. You're a 13 year old, I'm a 40 year old. But in our relationship as human beings together, I'm feeling unfairly treated because I feel like I have given all of this to you, and I have really knocked myself out to make sure that you have what you need for your best development. And now you're treating me, like I never think about you and that hurts my feelings because my whole adult life has been spent thinking about you guys. And I feel hurt that you sort of blanketly blame me as if I didn't care about you at all." And then the child can say whatever they want to say, but that is sort of like real emotional intimacy. You're telling them, "When you say things like that to me, it hurts me because here's what I thought I was doing, and here's what I intend to do." So in other words, that also models for them that you can talk about difficult stuff like that. And you can bring in... Just like you would with a friend or a mate, you would say, "Look, I feel like I've been doing all of this, and I don't feel like it's reciprocal." That's a fair statement, and it also educates the other person about how things may have gotten kind of lopsided. So there's nothing wrong with doing that because I don't want parents to think that they can never bring up what they've done for their kids. But do you say it in a way that the child is helpless? Like, "Oh, there's nothing I can do. Mom's mad at me and there's nothing I can do." Or do you bring it up like, "Oh, there is something I can do. I can understand mom's point of view and let her know that I understand that, but here's why I was upset." And she'll listen to me and we'll go back and forth about it. Doryn Wallach: And at what age is that start working, would you say? Lindsay Gibson: I think it can happen all the way down because it's something that you want to- Doryn Wallach: It's just probably the way you structure the conversation is different. Lindsay Gibson: Yeah. So you might say to a four or a five year old, "Do you think that's really true that mommy never thinks about you? Do you think that's really true?" And then you might say, "I don't think it's true because I love you very much. I want to hear what you think." But when you say it in that way, it hurts my feelings. And so you're educating the child, like, "Yes, you can object. You can criticize me." But when you say it in that kind of way, that hurts, and we can talk about these issues, like we are now, face to face in a way that doesn't hurt, it just shares the information together. So that can go all the way down even to real little kids, if you keep it simple. Doryn Wallach: I always remind my kids that I'm a human with feelings and that I'm not just their mom and that my life doesn't fully revolve around them. And sometimes will say this in a fit of rage, or I'll say, "Listen. Guys, I need a break. I need a few minutes alone. I have my own needs and things that I need to get done and it's not always about you." And I think, it's interesting, I think in doing that, I think when I initially start saying things like that, I felt a little guilt about it, but now I see my daughter, who's 13 say, "I need some alone time. I need a break. I need to take some time for myself." And my son too. And that's a healthy thing to teach. Lindsay Gibson: Yeah. Because you taught them that it's important to be self-aware, it's important to know what you need, and it's important to tell other people about that and ask for it from them. So what you're really modeling with that is you're really modeling emotional intimacy because you're telling them how it really is for you emotionally in that moment. "I need to take some time for myself. I can't be all about you all the time or I'll get burnt out. I need this for me." That is an emotionally intimate statement because you really let them see you, you were honest, authentic, and vulnerable with them. And like you just said, they will model that because it's an easier way to live. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. Especially this pandemic, I've change a lot of my parenting and a lot of not feeling guilty about being like, "Hey guys, I'm going to go to bed now and I'm going to go watch TV or whatever and like you're on your own, you're good." It's actually, in some ways been a blessing in disguise. What's the most effective technique in dealing with an EIP who can be exhausting, whether it's a parent or a friend or somebody in our lives, what have you found to be the most effective? Lindsay Gibson: Yeah. The most effective thing, first of all, is that you move into a place of observation and detachment with them because that's anybody's point of strength when they're dealing with a difficult situation. Anybody who wades into the emotional waters and start splashing around is not going to have a good result with anybody, right? But it's especially not going to have a good result with emotionally immature people because they can out react you every time. I mean, they will escalate to a point where you will be in the dust. So you're not going to beat them at that game. So if you become more self-contained and you become more objective and observational in your approach to them, and you sort of run a narration in your mind, like, "Yep. Yep. There's the rigidity. Yep, there's the feeling thing. Yep, there's the defensiveness." It keeps you calm, all right. And it keeps you out of reactivity. And when you are calm, you can remember what it is that you really wanted out of that interaction. Was your goal to have a fight with your parent, or was your goal to have them understand that you weren't coming for Thanksgiving, for instance. And you keep returning to the outcome that you want from that interaction. When you do that, you can simply repeat, repeat, repeat, because if the emotional immature person hears something that they don't want to hear, they will ignore your boundaries and keep pressing. And the only response that you can have to that is to repeat your boundary. Doryn Wallach: And by the way, this is like, this is parenting. I mean, it's doing the same thing with our kids, too, right? Lindsay Gibson: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Doryn Wallach: I had to learn a lesson that was so interesting. My brother is seven years older than me and my parents got divorced. He was sort of not involved and it did all fall on me, and I kind of got put in the middle of it. And to this day, if my mother brings something up on that time, my brother has... His technique has always been to just ignore it. And so it's always come to me. And I recently, in the past few years have started to do what he does. I used to be resentful towards him, because I was like, "Why aren't you dealing with this? Why are you just ignoring it?" And then I had started to ignore things and just be like, "I'm not going to engage in this topic, let's change the subject." And wow, it's actually so empowering and really... And I think being a parent helps you to do that better, even if it's with your own parents or other relationships in your life, because you do have to do that with children and these are immature adults. It's very liberating though, once you see that it actually works and you take control over that. And it takes practice though, because I think your immediate reaction is to just explode over things that you've been exploding about your whole life. And then it really takes a lot of work to try to not, and to just sort of ignore it and move forward. Lindsay Gibson: When our son was growing up, I had the advantage of being a psychologist, right? But my husband who came from a family, very loving, so forth, but when dad said something, what dad said went. So he couldn't grasp at first the idea that if he told our son not to do something that the next day he might do it. I had the benefit of being able to say to him, "It's all about repetition. It's repetition, repetition, repetition. When he's 25, he'll remember what you said." And my son who is now 30 posted on his Instagram recently, he said, and it was on his dad's birthday. He said, "I just have to give it to my dad that all the years that he said responsibility and accountability, I heard those words coming out of my mouth as I was talking to my team today and I realized what I had gotten from you." Doryn Wallach: That's great. That's great. I can't wait for those days. My mother always used to say this to me and I find myself saying it to my daughter too. And it's probably wrong, but she's... I can remember as a teenager her going, "Oh, I can't wait until you're a mother. Oh, I can't wait." What is the most important thing to remember? And I think you touched on it a little bit, but I think once you accept that you're not going to change somebody, it's a lot easier to deal with that person. And I think for many years, in many relationships in my life, I've tried to change people and when you come to accept that they are who they are, and are you going to live with that person in your life, the way that they are, that's a really important time to evaluate and figure it out. Lindsay Gibson: I think the most important thing to remember when you're dealing with them. In addition, to everything you just said because I cannot improve on that, really. That's so essential, that part about accepting that you're not going to change someone. And just imagine the difference in reaction, if somebody is coming at you expecting you to change, or somebody is coming at you accepting who you are, but still trying to reach you. The things to remember about dealing with EIPs, is that they are highly insecure. Okay? I mean, they may seem grandiose, narcissistic, the big boss, impenetrable, whatever, but man, they are highly insecure, if they've got these characteristics. And they are all about defending themselves against a feeling that they're not worth anything. If you remember that, they will have a terror of being exposed as being worthless or unworthy, you are more than halfway home with them because they can't be open to reasoning or conversations about emotional topics. If it goes anywhere near something that they can construe as an attack on their worthiness, they just are so incredibly sensitive and wounded in that area that it's like if someone's badly bruised, you do not help them deal better by pressing on that bruise. They can't accept boundaries without having hurt feelings. So if you think that you can present a boundary to them in such a reasonable kind way, that they don't have hurt feelings, you really need to rethink that because that's not going to happen, they will take it personally, they will take it as being about them. And that's where it's so important. I would say, this is the most important thing to remember. A, is try not to trigger them by getting overly emotional and critical of them. But then secondly, like we've been saying, keep it low key, just keep repeating what it is that you want as your outcome. And remember that you're doing it for yourself, you're expressing whatever you're expressing to them because it's a part of your authenticity maybe to express, but you're not doing it for them to change their mind or to try to reach them or change them because that won't work. Again, you're telling them you're not okay the way you are, and none of us here that without a shot of anxiety going through us. But from emotionally immature person, that anxiety is multiplied a million times because they feel so terrified of being judged unworthy and thereby rejected that they will really overreact to that. So if you just remember, keep your own self-possession going and be realistic about what you can and can't accomplish and repeat what it is that you're heading for, that would be to my mind, the most important thing to remember. Doryn Wallach: That's great advice. Lindsay, I actually want to... I have a question from a listener, but before I get to that, because it's somewhat related. How do we do this work? How do we heal and forgive? And at the same time, I'm going to ask you two questions at once, is it ever a good idea to cut off contact with this person? And how do I know when I've gotten to that point? Lindsay Gibson: We have to start with our own self-awareness. If you are not aware of the emotional impact on you, of dealing with the emotionally immature person, you're not going to be able to get yourself into a place where you can deal with them effectively. So, anything that you do that increases your self awareness, especially your emotional awareness is very important in doing this work. That could be therapy, it could be reading, it could be journaling, it could be talking with friends, but you have to start out by accepting your own emotional reactions and becoming more and more authentic about how these things impact you. When you can do that, that's when you are able to sort of step back and become more self-contained in dealing with the emotionally immature person, which is going to give you a lot more choices in terms of your response to them than if you were reacting unconsciously and emotionally. So when you were talking about forgiveness and getting along with them and whatever, I always put forgiveness aside. Some people have been through such horrendous experiences that they may never be ready, or willing, or able to forgive. So I just never make that a condition. Doryn Wallach: I'm so glad you're saying that, because I think that's important to know. There are certain situations where somebody can and somebody really can't. Lindsay Gibson: Yeah. I mean, God bless the saints. Okay? Doryn Wallach: Yeah. Lindsay Gibson: For the rest of us, that issue of forgiveness, meaning that you act as if it never happened or you understand the other person to the point where you're not angry with them anymore. I don't know how many of us can really attain that, but you can, instead of forgiveness, you can think about what is the best way to proceed. And that probably is not going to be fixating on how they mistreated you or whatever, is probably going to be about asking yourself, "What do I want out of my life now? And what is the type of relationship I'm willing to have with this parent in the future?" To me, that's much more productive thinking than trying to get yourself into a pretzel shape of forgiveness. That would be the way I would respond to how you are going to deal with the person going forward. In some of the feedback, I got fortunately very little negative feedback on the book, but it was interesting that a few people said that I was cutting the EIPs too much slack and not recognizing that some people needed to cut off from their parents and not have contact with them. And I really felt like I had not been heard with those responses, those reviews, because I do say that it can get to a point where it is so toxic and so draining to be around them, that you really do need to take a break. But I usually phrase it in terms of taking a break because that keeps it open-ended. And incidentally, all I do is present that as a possibility to my clients. I never suggest it, but I will lay out the damage that I see being done, if that's going on. And I do present the option to them that they can take a break, they can take a hiatus from the relationship, which is often a stunning thought to them because they're so unused to being able to set a boundary or think about themselves in that relationship. If the person... There are a couple of things that I think warrant that, one is that, if you just can't stand it anymore, and if you are having things going on in your life, like if you're worn out from your kids, you have a very demanding job, you have a health problem, okay, you're in some kind of transition and that parent will not respect the boundaries to give you the space that you need to either just cope or to heal, then that's a time when taking the break or the cutoff needs to occur just for your own health. The problem with the biggest reason why I don't come out of the gate suggesting that somebody break off contact with their parents is that, there was a family therapist by the name of Marie Bowen, who did this whole analysis of what he called the emotional cutoff in families. And he said, "People would take off and they would leave, and they would go to 3000 miles away." But the dynamic kind of froze internally at that point. So it wasn't like the person had solved anything, it wasn't that they had grown in any way, they had just put 3000 miles between them. And so cutting off from emotionally immature parents, at least, doesn't guarantee that you were free of them internally, that work has to occur independent of how much you see them or don't see them. So, I would just encourage people to realize that that internal work has to happen, even if you feel like you've gotten away from them and don't have to have contact, we don't want you to stay in a state of being kind of frozen in that internalization of that relationship, we want you to find yourself again, independent of them. Doryn Wallach: I know I'm taking up too much of your time, but I wanted to... I have one question that I think is interesting and would love to hear your opinion on. So this is from somebody who says, "How do couples cope in a marriage when they have both been affected by emotionally immature parents at opposite ends of the spectrum?" So for example, the wife's mom is... And I know you don't like this word, but narcissistic in the true sense of the definition and the husband's mother is overbearing and overly intrusive, no boundary lists, but it satisfies her lack of a healthy childhood. I know that's a lot longer second of work, but if you add as a small piece of advice. Lindsay Gibson: Yeah. And we come back to that gold standard of self-awareness because, know thyself is like the biggest thing here. If you are aware that you have these sensitivities and triggers, like the feeling that someone's going to trounce over your boundaries or that somebody is going to make it all about them, yeah, it's a pretty, pretty safe guess that you might be sensitized to that in your spouse or your mate, but to be aware of that gives you that opportunity to step back and ask yourself, "Okay, is this them, or is this something from my past that I'm reacting to?" And if there is uncertainty about that, you have the option of doing what you could not do, both spouses have the option of doing this. They can go to each other and say, "When this happened it made me feel this way, is that what you intended?" And that just helps... And Brené Brown has done a marvelous approach to this. Doryn Wallach: Got it. Everybody references Brené Brown, and so, she's really is an amazing woman because every time I have a guest on here, they're referencing her. Lindsay Gibson: Yeah. You know she really is. I mean, she really hit the heart of the matter with her work on vulnerability and transparency. But I think it's on her Daring Greatly special on Netflix, talks about this technique that she used with her husband, where she goes to him when he's done something that's hurt her feelings or angered her. And she says, "The story I'm telling myself about this is, that you don't care, or you were competing with me, or you were blah, blah, blah." And then she says, "Is that what you intended?" And that is a great way of filtering out old stuff and taking it off and asking your spouse to take it off of them and allow you to help get it back into its proper place, which might really be about how you were treated as a child, as opposed to how you're being treated now. And it could be that they would say, "Oh, I didn't think I was doing that, but maybe I was." Because that's how I learned that people act with each other, you can have a discussion, but that leading with your feelings and asking the other person, "Is that what you intended?" Is a way to get the past back in the past and deal with what's happening in the present in a different way. Doryn Wallach: Thank you so much for being here today and obviously you can buy Lindsey's book on Amazon. I'm going to post a link in the show notes, as well as on Instagram stories, because I think I got a few people excited just to doing a live today. And you have a second book, correct? That was a follow-up to this book, and what is that? Lindsay Gibson: Yeah. That one is called Recovering from Emotionally Immature Parents. Doryn Wallach: Oh, I have to get that one. Lindsay Gibson: Some are recapitulation of the first book just to get people oriented, but it has a lot more practical tools about what to say and how to act and all that kind of more nuts and bolts stuff with the parent. And it also has more discussion in there about the impact on your own self development and your own inner world when you grow up with emotionally immature parents. So it's got substantive, additional material, and as well as having the practical tools in it. Doryn Wallach: Great. I will go buy that very soon. Well, thank you again and if any listeners have questions about today's podcast feel free to post them in the Facebook group. Thank you for being here. Lindsay Gibson: Well, thank you so much for having me. This has been an absolutely delightful conversation, I've taken so many notes because so many of the things that you said, Doryn, really helped me to reconceptualize some of the points and I'm always trying to make it better. So thank you for your help and for- Doryn Wallach: We can have a separate conversation off of air. I could give you a lot. Lindsay Gibson: Oh, God. Doryn Wallach: Okay. Take care. Lindsay Gibson: All right. You too. Bye-bye. Doryn Wallach: Bye-bye. Thank you so much for listening. Remember to give yourself permission and know that you are not alone. Don't forget to subscribe, so you don't miss any episodes. Reviews are always appreciated and you can reach me by email at itsnotacrisis@gmail, Instagram, itsnotacrisispodcast. And please join our Facebook group, as well. Until next time, just remember, It's Not a Crisis.

EPISODE 20 Today we continue our Wise Women Over 50 Series with my friend, Annie Potts. Annie shares her life experience as a woman, a mother with a formidable career, and a wife, while we try to feed off of her amazing energy and wisdom. We share the funny story of how we met, as well as both my son’s and her son’s ADHD and her overall love and respect for women, equality and change. We laugh a lot too! Annie Potts is an award winning Hollywood actress, staring in many well known shows and movies, like “Young Sheldon”, “Designing Women”, "Pretty in Pink", "Ghostbusters", “Love & War”, “Toy Story” and many more. She is also a Broadway actress, a board member and drama professor Stephens College in Missouri, an ambassador for White Pony Express and a children’s book author. She and her husband, director/producer Jim Hayman joined another industry couple to form “All Are One,” an organization created to alleviate the suffering of so many folks during the Coronavirus pandemic. Their focus is to gather donations to gift anonymously to people in need. The initiative kicked off in Northern California and is now expanding across the country. EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Doryn Wallach: Welcome to It's Not A Crisis. I am your host Doryn Wallach. I'm an entrepreneur, a mother of two, a wife and a 40 something trying to figure out what is happening in this decade. Why is no one talking about it? I created this podcast to help women in their late 30s and 40s to figure out, what is going on in our mind, body, soul and life? We may laugh. We may cry. We may get frustrated, but most importantly, my goal is to make this next chapter of life positive. I'm also full of my own questions and I'm here to go on this journey with you. So let's do it together. Hey everyone. So today I am interviewing the one and only, Annie Potts, and this is my first celebrity interview ever. So I'm really, really excited about it. I met Annie in a crazy way, and you will hear about that in the podcast, but she is just the most wonderful, spiritual ball of light. And I am so honored that she accepted my invitation to come onto the podcast and be the number two episode in the Wise Women Over 50 series. So I know that you're going to learn a lot from this, you're going to laugh from this and you're just going to fall in love with her the way that I did when I first met her. I'm sure you've seen her in it but Annie, returned series television in the highly anticipated pre-qual Young Sheldon from creators, Chuck Lorre and Steven Molaro, and it is so good. On the CBS hit comedy, her character Meemaw, which she's amazing at ranks among the many iconic female roles Potts has created, including the wonderful Mary Jo Shively from Designing Women. How my Southern accent? Not very good. Her work in Love & War garnered her an Emmy nomination, and with any day now she'll two Screen Actors Guild Award nominations. In addition, she's played recurring roles in Chicago Med, Law & Order SVU, The Fosters. As well as guest starring on Scandal, Grey's Anatomy, which my 13-year-old is obsessed with right now, Major Crimes and Two and a Half Men, such a good show. Potts also started the Hallmark movies, The Music Teacher and Freshman Father, along with Marry Me for Lifetime. Potts reprised her role as the memorable Bo Peep in the highly successful fourth installment of Toy Story which won an Oscar for Best Animated Feature. She originated the character in the first Toy Story and appeared again in Toy Story 2, which I think I cried in that one. I can't remember which one, but I cried. It's the fire scene, was very devastating to me. Her numerous other feature film credits include the Ghostbusters franchise, Texasville, The Last Picture Show, Jumpin’ Jack Flash, Who’s Harry Crumb?, King of the Gypsies and Corvette Summer, for which she received a Golden Globe Award nomination. Recent credits include Happy Anniversary for Netflix, along with Izzy Gets the F*ck Across Town and Humor Me, both of which debuted at the Los Angeles Film Festival. Potts made her Broadway debut in Yasmina Reza’s Tony Award-winning black comedy God of Carnage and also appeared in the long-running Pippin. She appeared in off-Broadway productions of The Vagina Monologues, Diva, Love Letters, Charley’s Aunt, The Merchant of Venice, A Little Night Music, Cymbeline and The Effect of Gamma Rays on Man-in-the-Moon Marigolds, a little bit of a tongue twister, but I got it. I got it. On the west coast, she received rave reviews for her performance as a distraught wife dealing with her husband’s suicide in Aftermath. The play received the LA Times’ Critics Choice Ovation Recommendation. Born in Nashville and raised in Kentucky, Potts, was the youngest of three girls interested in stage and film at an early age. She received her BFA in theater from Stephens College in Missouri, where she’s currently a visiting professor of drama and a dedicated board member. Potts is also an ambassador for White Pony Express, an organization that feeds and clothes those in need in the Bay Area. Additionally, she wrote a children’s book about a young boy named Kemarley Brooks, titled Kemarley of Anguilla, with all proceeds going to the Arijah Children’s Foundation, an important cause in Anguilla. Recently, Potts along with her husband director, producer Jim Hayman joined another industry couple to form All Are One. An organization created to alleviate the suffering of so many folks during the coronavirus pandemic. Their focus is to gather donations to gift anonymously to people in need. The initiative kicked off and Northern California, and it's now expanding across the country. So needless to say, this woman is amazing. Annie, welcome to the show. I'm so happy to have you here. Annie Potts: Oh, thank you. Thank you for having me. Doryn Wallach: I want to start by telling how we met because it's a very funny story. Annie Potts: Yeah. Doryn Wallach: When we first met, we were on a day trip, remember, to those beautiful islands. Wait, let me preface this with, my 40th birthday, my husband sent myself and three best friends on the most amazing trip to Peru. It was the best thing I've ever done. And we were taking a boat to this little amazing island. I don't even know, what was it called? Where they were reeds, it was made out of. Annie Potts: No. Actually we had met on the train to Machu Picchu first. Doryn Wallach: Oh, that was first, you're right. You're right. Oh, right. You walked by- Annie Potts: I think you and your friends had been drinking. Doryn Wallach: Yeah, that was our really drunk first night. Not first, was it first? Wait, I had really bad altitude sickness so I didn't really drink on this trip. And after we did wine at Picchu, I was like, "Let's drink. Let's go." And yeah, so we drank a lot that night. Annie Potts: And we met on that fabulous train, the Orient Express acceptance, the Peruvian express. Doryn Wallach: It was beautiful. Annie Potts: So fantastic. And you girls sure looked like you were having fun. Doryn Wallach: Well, that's how it started because you walked by and you said that, something along those lines. And I said something like, "Oh, I like your look." And then you asked where we're from and we were talking, and this sounds terrible, I knew you were somebody but I couldn't... It was your voice that was just, I kept saying, "God, her voice," and my friends are going, "God, her voice is so familiar." But I'm not one of those people, I've never been, who if I see a celebrity I'll bother them. I'm just not like that. So I was like, just let it be. So then we went on the trip to the island, together, because we were staying at the same hotel in Titicaca, right? Annie Potts: Titicaca. Doryn Wallach: Titicaca. Oh, yeah, Titicaca. Annie Potts: The steeliest name ever. Doryn Wallach: I have a sweatshirt that says Titicaca. Annie Potts: How many people can actually say, "Hey, we got to know each other in Titicaca." Doryn Wallach: So true. Right. So we wrote in a boat together over there. So we're walking around, I'm going to almost have to post pictures on social media because I can't even explain what we were walking around on. Annie Potts: Yes. They're little islands that have been handmade by the reeds that grow in Lake Titicaca. It's like walking on top of a water mattress, and they live there. Doryn Wallach: Do you think they put those outfits on for us or do you think they always wear those beautiful, colorful clothes? Annie Potts: I think that's it. Doryn Wallach: They had an 18-month-old son who I just kept looking at and going, "Oh my God, the kid's going to go off the island." He was just running round. Annie Potts: Yes. But they've adapted that, totally. But it was an interesting place to me. Doryn Wallach: It was. So Katie, my friend. Katie, she'll talk to anybody and she's a little outspoken. But she's like, "I just have to figure out, it's driving me crazy." So she walks up to you and said, "What are you in? What do you do? Why is your voice so familiar?" And you said, "Well, do you have children?" And we said, "Yes." And you said, "Well, you must know me as Bo Peep from Toy Story." And we're like, "No." Because I feel like it's been a long time since we've watched Toy Story. Although, I love Toy Story. And then you said, "How old are you?" And you mentioned Designing Women. And we were like, "Oh my God, of course." And then of course, after we met you we were like, Pretty in Pink and Ghostbusters. And then we saw you at the hotel and then it was our checkout day. And we all were on our way to the airport. As we pulled into the airport, we were on a road full of dirt, mounds and hundreds and hundreds of protesters that were forming a human barricade and burning stuff. And the hotel said, "All right, well, this is where we're going to leave you. And we're like, "What? You're leaving us here in the middle of this." And the airport was not close. We had a walk and we had our luggage, my friend Katie was in wedges. It was very funny. Annie Potts: And we were on a very first-class trip, you know? Actually, my husband, he wanted to go there for his 50th birthday and then it, I think it was postponed to 60. And you were having your 40th. So we were taking advantage of the celebration. It was first class and they just dumped us off literally by a dumpster fire with tires and said, "Get your luggage and get out." Doryn Wallach: I have pictures. I mean, I have pictures of us pulling in and pictures out of the window of the van. People like just thinking, are you serious, this is where we're getting out? Annie Potts: But then you girls proved yourself to be, wow, just so sensationally organized and competent. You kind of got us out of that mess because we were sitting on the floor in the airport, which then closed. And we had to get out. Everybody had to planes to catch in limbo. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. They canceled all the flights. Annie Potts: I don't know which one of you managed to get through, but you managed to get us a van. And we had to take, a what, seven, eight hour drive to [inaudible 00:10:54]. Once we got out of the burning tires, again, it was like smoking volcanoes. Doryn Wallach: There actually this human barricade of men and women. They were protesting education or something, but I- Annie Potts: Teachers grand strick. Doryn Wallach: Right. Teachers. But wow, they really take it to the next level there. And I don't speak Spanish well. I did not do well in Spanish. And I kept trying to say, I was scared and I was trying to get through. And I was trying to explain that I needed to get home to my kids. And I kept saying, [inaudible 00:11:26]. And Liz is going, "You're saying the wrong thing. They don't know what you're saying." Anyway, so we get on this van. Before making sure we had beer with us. I think, Harry, your son got us some beer. Annie Potts: Yes. Yeah, a 20 something can always find a beer. Doryn Wallach: Right. But then we're on this van and I'm A, we have no service on our phones and B we're all like, where the hell are we going? We don't even know where we were going. We were somewhere in the middle of the country. And you guys were getting on a flight from there, but we had to find a hotel and stay there for the night. And I remember calling my husband and I was like, "I'm going to drop a pin, so you could see where I am because I don't know where I am." Annie Potts: Well, roads were closed because the teachers knew that the only way to shut down the country was to mess up tourist plans because the country is so dependent on it. Doryn Wallach: Right. That was a bonding way to start a friendship. Annie Potts: It was. Well, that's one of the reasons why travel is so great because things like that happen. Well, Machu Picchu was pretty amazing. And we did a little stint on the Amazon, too. But what I remember is trying to get out of the country with you guys. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. That was the biggest memory and, Oh God, I just have so many funny pictures. I have a picture of you actually. I think I've sent it to you, just kind of walking with your luggage or I think, Jim, had your luggage and you have a big smile on your face and I have a video or I'm walking by and they're looking at me and I'm like, "Hi, how are you?" Annie Potts: Well, when you take a trip like that, I mean, aren't you really looking for an adventure? Doryn Wallach: Yes. Oh, 100%. That's why that was all I wanted for my birthday. I was like, "I don't want to party. I love to travel. I just want to be with my closest people. And I want to see things I don't see." So I certainly got that on that day. Annie Potts: In spades, man, in spades. Doryn Wallach: What I wanted to start talking about, because obviously my demographic late 30s and 40s, many of you remember Annie from Pretty in Pink. And I was pretty young. I was about nine when Pretty in Pink came up, but I still saw it. And I've seen it 100 times since then. I don't know if I got it as much, but I distinctly remember, and I'm not saying this because you're on here. I distinctly remember that your character, Iona, stuck out to me the most as a little kid, when you're looking at, it wasn't like, "Ooh, I want to be like Molly Ringwald." Like, "I want to be like her." First of all, and I've talked to you about my mother before, there was definitely a part of your character that reminded me of my mom. But also, I just loved that you were your own person and in this part, but you had the biggest heart and you were really warm and loving. And I was watching it. So the other night I was like, okay, I'm going to watch it again because I haven't seen it in a while before I speak to Annie and I fell asleep. So I had to then watch it again. I don't know if you've ever heard this quote, Howard Deutch, he was the director of the movie. I read this quote that said, "I saw the character of Iona as having a shoulder big enough for the world to cry on. I chose Annie because I got the sense that she was exactly that way." You really are. Annie Potts: That's so sweet. I've never heard that before. Isn't that lovely? That's just the kind of a review that an actor loves. Doryn Wallach: Well, and you know what though, first of all, I can speak from experience that that it's so true. You're so genuine and warm and have such a wonderful spirit, but you're also, I'm going to get in a little bit. I'm going to get into how you actually helped me and really didn't need to do that, but can we just go backtrack a little bit. Tell the listeners working on Pretty in Pink, is there any, I don't know, juice or information or something about the movie or the cast or whatever that you remember fondly or? Annie Potts: Well, I think that it was... I think I was 32 when I did that. So I was pretty young, but I was the oldest actor in it. Aside from that, that there wasn't a parent. And I was thinking, I hadn't really been in that situation where I was the older. I'm the youngest of three girls, so I always think, here I'm 100 now and I still think of myself as the baby. So anyway, in that situation I was the oldest. So it was interesting to be put in that role as the one who people go to instead of the one who is seeking help from others. And that was interesting for me, the kids are so young. I mean, Molly, was I think 18. Jon Cryer was 19. James Spader was young and so gorgeous, wow. Doryn Wallach: So gorgeous. We were talking about his hair the other night when we were watching it. Tai was like, "Look at that hair. That was good hair." Annie Potts: And now he has no hair. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. I know. Annie Potts: He's a wonderful actor. He was so complicated in that. Anyway, it was fun to do that. And that film has really had legs, as they say. I don't think we are, or maybe just because I'm not aware of it, this generation now doesn't have somebody like John Hughes who is writing for them where it's like, we really get you. We really get your struggles. And so, I was so pleased to be a part of that because now, let's see, that's 30 years. Is that three generations? Yeah. It's three generations of people who come into knowing that film. And it still holds up. Doryn Wallach: My daughter's 13 and she, and all of her friends have watched it. And hopefully she'll tell her daughter one day, but it's just one of those movies that you're like, I remember when I was trying to get her to get her... She's like, "I don't like old movies." I'm like, "It's not," I don't think it was an old movie. When my mother wanted me to watch movies from the 20s and 30s I was like, I don't want to watch that. And I guess that, we're there now. Annie Potts: Yeah, you are. I bet you watch those movies from the 20s and 30s now, don't you. Doryn Wallach: Oh, yeah. Now I enjoy them, then not so much. But she actually, she loved Pretty in Pink and I think that you're right, there aren't movies today that speak to this generation. And it's such a complicated generation too, so. Annie Potts: Bless their hearts with this COVID thing. Oh my God. Of course, it'll make them. And it will define their generation, like every big crisis, world wars and other pandemics and things define that generation. And I think that will give them, right now it's agony, but it will give them a cohesion later. It's like, wow. Yeah, you came up in that. And it will be such a badge of honor, I think. I think we have to keep our minds on the big, big picture. She was tough now though, I don't envy them. Doryn Wallach: No. I was a sociology major and I'm so fascinated for the future and how they were formed because of this and social media and everything else. It'll be interesting. But I'll tell you, my kids have become a lot more independence as the pandemic because I've just been like not doing anything anymore. "Mommy's done, the job's over. Now it's your turn. Have fun. Make your own dinner. Bye-bye." Annie Potts: Yeah, they can do that. They're old enough to do that. Doryn Wallach: They are old enough to do that. Speaking of kids, you have a wonderful husband who we met and three wonderful sons who, if I researched this correctly, are 39, 28 and 24. Annie Potts: Yes. Doryn Wallach: Okay. And we met Harry when we were on our trip. He was such a sweet kid. Now I sound old. He's such a sweet kid. Annie Potts: I know, he's about to turn 25. Doryn Wallach: Right. But you always, you glow. I remember when I was with you, you just glow when you talk about your boys. Annie Potts: Oh, I'm nuts about my boys. Doryn Wallach: Oh, that's so lovely. Annie Potts: They're amazing. And of course, I think every working mother worries about that. When my oldest son I felt was old enough to be approached, I went, you know, "Wow, I sure was working a lot when you were little." Drag you round and lived in hotels, on locations and stuff. And I was always working, and I thought maybe that I had failed somewhere as a parent. And I said, you know, "Did you feel like it wasn't there? If so, I'm sorry." He was like, "No, no, mom. It was okay." Doryn Wallach: That's so interesting. And thank you. That's such a good piece of wisdom for us because I had spoken about this on another episode, we've had a few episodes on starting a business or working at our age or going back into the workforce after having children and women, moms have so much guilt over working, even if you don't necessarily have to work financially, but you want to work. There's this guilt about doing that, and there shouldn't be. Annie Potts: Well, look, what's happened now during COVID. 80% or something like that of women who have had to give up their work, and men aren't giving up their work. The women are giving up their work because the children are home and somebody has to be there with them to mind their lessons and things. So I think this is going to be an interesting problem. I mean, all over again, women are going to have to try to get back into the workforce when we get this problem resolved. But I thought, "Well, we're always the ones that take the hit aren't we?" I mean, and think of the essential workers that maybe we didn't appreciate so much before, those who came to nanny or clean our houses and stuff. It's a whole other thing, isn't it? Doryn Wallach: Yeah. Yeah. I've talked about this a lot, it's sad. Because I think even as moms before COVID, we have this disadvantage where if you really want a big career, you're not going to see your kids as much. And there's always this back and forth in so many women's heads into am I being a good mom, am I a bad mom because I'm doing this or that. And now, it's almost as if we have no choice, a lot of women don't right now. And certainly didn't sign up to be teachers at home all day with their kids. So yeah, it's been tough. I do think though, women are so amazing, and especially my generation of women who were kind of neglected a little bit as kids and sort of left to be more independent. I feel like we're going to come out of this stronger with amazing business ideas and amazing ways of things that we're going to start doing in our 50s. Annie Potts: I totally agree. Well, crisis always incubates innovation, always. For those of us who have to stay at home, I think we'll walk out of this with a lot of good ideas. I mean, my youngest son was in graduate school and he's a poet. And at first he was so, he was so disappointed and I thought, no, this is a gift to worst, man. I mean, where the whole world is in turmoil, that for a writer is gold. You know what I mean? It's like, well, this is an opportunity to... I mean, if writers don't talk about the state of the world and internal dimensions of that and stuff, it's like, wow, you got a lot of great material here. Doryn Wallach: I mean, so much material. You did the most wonderful thing, and I hope you don't mind me bringing it up. But right around the time I met Annie, my son was really struggling in school. He was diagnosed with ADHD, seven at the time, I think. Had a horrible, horrible school experience. And I don't remember if we, we probably talked about it at some point in our hours together. But you were so kind and you were coming to New York and you said, "Let's have tea or coffee or whatever and sit and talk." And you spent, it could have been well over an hour with me just talking as somebody who has boys, has experienced similar things. And I know that I've expressed to you how much that meant to me, but for you to go out of your way to do that for me, for someone you didn't know that well, that says so much about who you are as a person. And I can tell you that your words of wisdom in that conversation, first of all gave me confidence that my son was going to be okay. Which I kind of know, and I can say this as his mom, I was sort of not worried about him. It was more about how he was being treated by the school. And then I had pulled him out and was applying to schools. So I think we were talking about the types of schools and you were just... So that's a whole other episode for me to talk about, because I have such a bad experience, but it has turned into, now such a beautiful experience in the new school that he's in and he's thriving. He just took his IC exams for middle school and scored 90 across the board on everything. But more importantly he's a little artist and such a good kid. Annie Potts: I think I was probably that kid, too. Doryn Wallach: I think I was too, by the way. Annie Potts: And it was a different time before they started diagnosing that. And for those of us who were artistic, creative and staff, we just weren't easily pigeonholed. And I have an ADHD son myself and he was so gifted, he started reading at three. And by the time he was 18-months-old, he was on the original Apple computer. The one that was like a funny little tower with a 6-inch screen. Yeah. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. The Apple [inaudible 00:26:13]. Right. Annie Potts: We got a program for him. He was sorting flora and fauna. I mean, we had to do the mouse for him. He just pointed because he was so tiny, but I though, "Oh, man, this kid's going to be awesome." And he was doing really well in Montessori and then I was like, "This kid is so bright. I need to put him in a very accelerated program to match his gifts." So I put him in a very traditional school and he immediately hit the wall and couldn't sit down. He was failing, where he'd been the student in this other school. So I was like, "What the heck?" And then of course, we got his diagnosis as ADHD because in Montessori they kind of let them roam from one activity to the other. We didn't know that he actually couldn't sit down. It was not easy. I ended up quitting. I had my, actually, my most favorite job ever. I was doing a show for Lifetime called Any Day Now, about the friendship between two women, one black, one white and we would drop back and examine the '60s when they were little girls trying to carve out a friendship in a very hot environment of racism and violence then, but he was drowning. He was just drowning and so I was like, my contract was up and I said, you know, "I've got to go. I got to take care of my kid. My kid's circling the drain and I..." So it was like a four year Odyssey to find the right school because this was 20 years ago now. And the education system is much more attuned to how to teach different learners. But of course, having gone through that I was very sympathetic. And of course, I too, like you, I always harbored this deep faith that my boy was fabulous, and going to be just fine. It was just getting him educated and getting him to that point. And that all happened. And he's absolutely fabulous as I always knew. So when I meet other people who are struggling with that, of course, I always love to be a cheerleader for that. And for you to hold on to what you know about your kid, you just got to play to their strengths. Don't focus on their weaknesses at all. I mean, your son's an amazing artist. Amazing. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. You know what? I think that, well, that time was so hard because of the way he was treated by his existing school. The reason I pulled him out of this first school is he came home to me in second grade and said, "Mommy, I don't want to be a person anymore." And this is a very happy kid typically. And everything in my body went to jello. So at that moment I was like, "I'm getting him out of the school." I forced my way into there the next day and was like, "Listen, this is what my kid is saying, and this is not okay." Annie Potts: "I don't want to be a person anymore," he said. Doryn Wallach: I don't want to be a person anymore. That was horrible. Annie Potts: Oh my God. Doryn Wallach: And he said, "The teachers don't like me, the kids don't like me, the principal doesn't like me, nobody likes me. I don't want to be a person anymore." And otherwise a very happy kid. So you know as a mom, you have that gut instinct to get him out of here and let's get him somewhere else. So he ended up going, he's now in third year and now applying to middle school, but I'm starting to think about this again with him and I want to make sure that he's celebrated for who he is because he's super, super bright, like your son, but also really artistic. And I think that those two things come hand in hand also with ADHD. I think it's a very common mix, which I always joke with... My husband's very smart. Went to Princeton, blah, blah, blah. My schools weren't as impressive. However, I joke. I'm like, you know, "I think Rex's gifts come from me." I don't think I was given the opportunity because I was an undiagnosed ADD, but I'm pretty smart. And some of the things that he articulated in his head, I can remember you thinking those things too, as a younger child and maybe not saying them. So anyway, thank you for that. And I'm so grateful. Annie Potts: It's my privilege. And when I look back on it all, and I can't tell you how many other people, because it's a sign of the times this whole ADD thing. So many people I run into have had that same experience. And of course, once you've been through something yourself, then it behooves you to lend a hand. And I'm so grateful. I learned those lessons so I could be helpful. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. And I will pay it forward at some point to somebody else also. Annie Potts: Pay it forward, I hope you will. Doryn Wallach: I will. And so, when we met three years ago, I think you just got the job as Meemaw on Young Sheldon, hit show. And I had never watched big bang theory so I knew you were explaining it to me, but as you're telling me, I'm like, "Oh my God, like this sounds a little bit like my son." Although, I will tell you that my son is not not that. He's very smart, he's not that smart. And about two years ago, maybe, I tried to get him to watch it with me. And I think he was a little young, but we just started watching it. We just literally last night finished season one. And it is such a great show. You are so fabulous in it, but it's also such a wonderful family show to watch. We just finished watching The Goldbergs as a family. We started that in the pandemic. That was a great show to watch together and now we're watching Young Sheldon. But Rex likes to say, it's our time, we do this together. Just the two of us. What's it like working on that show? I would imagine, it's just seems like such a wonderful cast of people. Annie Potts: It is a wonderful cast of people, to a one, they're just wonderful. It's interesting, I really haven't worked with kids very much until this. And I mean little kids, they were eight when we started and they're 12, almost 13 now. But usually on a film set, it can be a little tempers flare and there's profanity and stuff, but we don't have that because of course, we have the children to consider. So the atmosphere is kept very sweet for them. And it's been an eye opener really. It's like, well, why don't we keep all work like this? You imagine if our children were around listening to the way that grownups interact, then it would be tempered with remembering that we are adults and have to be a good example to them. But they're extraordinary children, anyway. Doryn Wallach: I feel like your character as Meemaw, is almost like your character as Iona. You got a [sassool 00:33:50] edge to you, a little, not such a rule follower. You have your own thing going, but yet you're warm and you give wonderful advice. And it's funny, there's a little similarity there. Annie Potts: That's kind of the roles I've been playing. I mean, I don't think much about my career. And I think that that's sort of been operative in most of the work that I've done, sassy off the beaten path kind of people. Doryn Wallach: It's kind of you, right, in a good way. Annie Potts: Yeah. It kind of is that. Doryn Wallach: Do you know, by the way, last night we watched a, there was a behind the scenes right at the end of the season, I didn't realize that Zoe Perry was Laurie Metcalf's daughter. Annie Potts: Yeah. Doryn Wallach: And the funniest thing is the entire time I've been watching this show I'm like, "God, her facial expressions are so familiar. She just really reminds me of somebody." And then we learned that last night. That was very funny. She plays the mother in Big Bang Theory. Annie Potts: We have all three of us been together before. And in that case, then Zoe has her real mother and I actually played both of their mothers. It's such a crazy circle of mothering that it's silly. It's like, "Wow, I am both your mothers." She's a great girl. Both of them. Doryn Wallach: She's a good actress, too. I love her facial expressions. Annie Potts: Yeah. She's fabulous. Doryn Wallach: You really, like as a mom, you feel them. You feel her facial expressions Annie Potts: Always worried about the special child. Doryn Wallach: You know what, there's a definitely a relation. My daughter always jokes and she's like, "Rex is your child." I'm like, "he is not, I do not have favorite children." I really truly don't. I think my kids are both so amazing in different ways, but it's funny when you see her in the show, sort of defending him and in the way that sometimes I've had to with my son's difficulties. So I can definitely relate to that. And I think he relates to the show. As amazing as your career has been, what I want to talk to you about today is your wisdom. So I know that, you've been through a lot in your life. I think that the point of this Wise Women Over 50 series is that my listeners need to hear, they need to hear about the future, but they need to hear about what others have looked back on and wish they'd changed or done differently, and what's to look forward to. So what was currently happening in your life around your late 30s and 40s? Annie Potts: My husband and I didn't meet until we were 36, or almost 37. So we were busy starting a new relationship and then a family. I had my last baby when I was 43. Doryn Wallach: Oh my God, that's my age. Annie Potts: Yeah. Can you imagine? Doryn Wallach: No. Annie Potts: I remember when I got pregnant with my last one and called my sister and she was, I said, "I'm pregnant again." And her response was, "What were you thinking?" Anyway, I was thinking I wanted another one. So we were busy doing that. And I was also, I had a very busy career at that time and was working, at one point it required five nannies just to keep things going. And one was a college girl who was living in the apartment over our garage, And her job was to, because my husband's a director and we often go to work at 4:00 in the morning and don't come home till 2:00 in the morning, so it was her job to, if one of us wasn't in our bed, for her to just be in the bed so if one of the little ones woke up somebody would be in mommy and daddy's bed. So it was so insane. I look back on that time and I just wonder how we survived it. Doryn Wallach: How did you have the energy? I don't have energy now. I can't even imagine doing that with all of that. Annie Potts: At Christmas every year we play our home movies over, and we just put them on on the TV in the family room and so everybody kind of drifts in and out and sits down and watches Christmases and birthday parties and life going on. And my youngest son came to me last year, he'd been watching the movies from that period, and he went, "Well, mom," he said. "In all the movies when we were little, you look so tired." I thought he was going to say you look so beautiful. I was like, "Really, I just tired that way." And so, I ducked in and looked at it and I have to confess, I looked pretty tired. I caught up, I caught up on my wrist. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. Well, let me ask you something. So you had your last at 43, when a lot of women are starting peri-menopause, did you go through that or was your body just so confused, or not? Annie Potts: My body was pretty confused. I happen- Doryn Wallach: Yeah. I mean, so I talk a lot about how, I've been suffering a lot with this and other women have, but our kids are older. But what was that like? Annie Potts: Well, I think I made jokes while I was pregnant that I was going to have the baby and immediately go into menopause. And I have to say that pretty much what happened. I started having hot flashes when I was still nursing him. Doryn Wallach: Oh my God. Annie Potts: And I only figured that out because my driver, I was doing a show for ABC at the time, based on Dangerous Minds the film. So she used to come pick me up every morning and she was a little bit older than me. And I was like, "Man, I got up, I nurse the baby and now I'm sweating and it's like I have a fever." So she said, honey, or... I was like, "No. I'm nursing the baby." So that kind of, that happened. Doryn Wallach: And how old were you went through menopause, fully done? Annie Potts: 50. Doryn Wallach: Oh, wow. So you were really in that perimenopause stage and postpartum. I can't even imagine because I was a mess postpartum and I- Annie Potts: And working 14, 15 hours a day. Doryn Wallach: Crazy. That's absolutely crazy. Good for you, but uh-uh (negative). Annie Potts: And had a baby, a toddler and a 15-year-old. Doryn Wallach: Oh my God. Can you imagine, anyone listening, ever? I can't. I can't even verbalize. Annie Potts: Yeah. I live to tell the tale. Doryn Wallach: Yeah, you do. What would you tell yourself back then, as you went on in your 40s, your kids got a little bit older. Is there advice that you would say to yourself now that you wish you knew then or something you would have told yourself? Annie Potts: Well, just have confidence in the path of things. You know, that I credit a lot, I think about, "Oh boy, is everything going to be okay?" I am a person of faith. Faith in life, faith in the universe's wisdom. I think I just put my head down and tended my garden. Sometimes you plant things that aren't going to mature for many years. It's like people who plant trees, and there's no guarantee that you are going to see that tree in full maturity. You may not see it as 120 foot grand thing, but you will see most of its maturity. And that is, I mean, right now, I just turned 68 and I feel like I'm really in the harvest time, all the tending of my garden and my woods, I see it coming to fruition. My children are grown and they're lovely human beings. They're choosing wonderful mates. My oldest son is married and my daughter-in-law, his wife, came to me and she said, you know, "I just want to thank you." She said, "I am so grateful that a feminist raised my husband." Doryn Wallach: Oh, that's so great. Annie Potts: And now that is the harvest. You know what I mean? Doryn Wallach: Yes. Absolutely. Annie Potts: And I thought, "Wow, I didn't label myself as a feminist, but pretty much everything I did was under the tenets of feminism." And that just made me so happy. So I just think, it's like where we are now at such a difficult time, but I think that there's going to be such a harvest from this. The old white men are at the end of their tenure, they maybe elder, but they're not wise. And they got nothing left and they've got to give it up to the future picture of the US, which is of many colors and capacities. And I mean, the future, it has to be modern. It has to be, we have to think about everybody else, not just scraping off the foam, the goodness at the top for ourselves. And I see that happening. I think it's the dawning of the age of Aquarius, I mean, it literally is. It's the promise golden age. So our kids are struggling a little bit now, but I think we just have to tell them, it's like, "Listen, it's hard now, but it's going to be better." Doryn Wallach: I think hearing you, I think a lot of times, and I'll say this to women with younger kids where they're constantly make themselves feel guilty about things. I always joke and I was like, "Listen, your kid before nine-years-old is not going to remember anything that you did. So whatever you're doing, stop feeling guilty because they're not going to remember it." Whereas, I stayed at home with my kids when they were little and they have no recollection of it. They'll make comments, when I was working too hard, I spent five years going to stupid mommy and me classes that I didn't like, talking to women that I had nothing in common with and spending all day long with toddlers, they don't remember anything. And then they'll just make a reference to like, "Oh mommy, were you there then?" I'm like, "Yeah, I was the one taking the picture. That's why you don't see me." But I think it's nice to hear that, hopefully down the line, there is a payoff when... And by the way, at my kid's age, I'm actually starting to see when they go out into the world and they do things and people come back to me and say, "Oh, your daughter's so polite. And she was so sweet." And I'm like, "Really? Oh, that's good." She's not doing that at home, but I'm glad she's doing it there, which means I'm doing something right. So I think you get those rewards later, and obviously you've seen that yourself so that's wonderful. What about marriage? Is there a piece of advice that you would give if you had one piece of advice about marriage? Two homes? Annie Potts: Well, yes. As you know, my husband and I just spent the last, except for one year, we have lived apart. Because he got a job down in New Orleans. He was running NCIS down there and I stayed back for the first couple of years because we never know if these things are going to last, these shows. And then it was like, "Oh, that's a going thing." So I moved down there and as soon as I'd renovated a very fabulous house down there, I've got a job back here and moved back. And so, now he's back and it's like, "Hey, don't you need to go someplace, like work or another state?" Doryn Wallach: By the way, they're a lot of women feeling that way about their husbands who are working at home right now, I think. Annie Potts: Yeah. It's like get out of my house. I just think, as in all things, and I don't mean this as a dower sort of negative thing, but life is sort of an endurance race, isn't it? It's a marathon. And I know when we talked earlier, you said you'd done a show about divorce and that you offered up that, if you were in a long-term relationship and you haven't seriously considered divorce, you're a liar. Doryn Wallach: It's true. Annie Potts: You're a bald-faced lair. I have to say, I did with my oldest son. I divorced his father and I always felt bad about that for him. It was an alcoholic home and I needed to get him away from that, I felt. And I know one of my younger children has said, because his dad and I have endured and stayed together when things were hard, too. But in the last couple of years he offered up, he said, "I'm so glad you and dad never divorced." He said, "That would just have killed me." And I thought, "Well, there you have it." So it's like, why even get in an argument? I mean, we're going to have differences. As in all things, you need to get a long. We practice these things within family groups so we don't go out and be out in the world so much. So it's like practice, make your best practices at home, be forgiving, be thoughtful, be thankful. Don't be so critical. All of that because then your children learn it. And honestly it makes it easier on yourself. I mean, obviously there are some things that are insurmountable and it's important to move on if it's untenable. Doryn Wallach: I think there are women who want to leave a marriage and are afraid to do it for the children, but obviously in your situation, that was a necessity. And you did the right thing. And I think that there are other marriages where you're just going to have, shit, I hate to say it, but you're going to have ups and downs and all that. I've been married 17 years. And you have bumps in the road, if you can work them out and you're able to do that. And they're not things that are as large as, having an alcoholic in the home is not, that's something you can't really work through. But I think that you have to try to stick it out. It's wonderful that your son said that to you, but I also think you just have to work it out for you and for the two of you, first and foremost. Because then your children will see an example of working on something that isn't perfect. Annie Potts: Yes. Well, I think, when the kids are little, obviously there's only... I mean, you can't say, I'm sorry we have to go because daddy's an alcoholic and I'm worried about your whatever. I didn't have tools then. Both of my parents were alcoholics and they both got sober later in life, which I was grateful for. But also, I found Al‑Anon later in life because my father said, after he got sober, he was like, "You really should go to Al‑Anon because you grew up with two drunks and you got stuff that probably would be helped by hearing what other people say about that." And he was very wise in that. Doryn Wallach: By the way, I've been to Al‑Anon. I mean, next time you come back to New York there's this wonderful woman's group in the East Village that, I didn't grow up with alcoholics but my mother did. And she's probably going to kill for saying this publicly, but I have done a lot of work myself on the way that she raised me based on the way that she was raised in a home of an alcoholic. And actually on Thursday, I'm interviewing this woman. I don't know if you've ever read this book. We could talk about this after the podcast, but it's called Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents? Annie Potts: No, I haven't. But- Doryn Wallach: Oh, no. But it's... Annie Potts: ... it is so great. Doryn Wallach: I'm going to text it to later. It speaks to everybody. I mean, it doesn't matter if your parent was an alcoholic. It talks about their generation and why they are the way they are, why their parents were the way they are, but how it affects us as people now. And it's so fascinating. I'm so excited. So she's coming on the show next week, but that's just a side note. So I went to an Al‑Anon meeting because after reading this book, somebody had suggested, and I was like, "Well, I don't. I mean, why would I go to an Al‑Anon meeting?" And I walked into this meeting and I was like, "Oh my God, these are my people. "I really understand these people." It's pretty amazing. So it doesn't have to necessarily be an immediate thing that affected you. Annie Potts: No. Alcoholism is the gift that keeps on giving to every generation. I mean, people who grew up with parents who were ragers, you know? Doryn Wallach: Or even controlling, even controlling parents. That's what this book talks about. It could just be parents who had expectations that were beyond for their children. Annie Potts: [inaudible 00:52:14] programs are really great. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. Annie Potts: They're great. Doryn Wallach: Actually, a lot of celebrities in that program that I went to. Annie Potts: Well, you don't name them. Doryn Wallach: No, no, no. I'm not naming them. I will never do that. Annie Potts: That's the beauty of anonymous. Doryn Wallach: Yes. No, no, no. I would never do that. I have to ask you, in finishing up, I have to ask you this question that I read about, and I don't know if this is true. It could be fake news, but is it true that you were supposed to play Glenn Close's part in Fatal Attraction? Annie Potts: No. Doryn Wallach: Really? That's so funny. So I read that you were supposed to play the part and you didn't because you were doing Designing Women. Annie Potts: No. No. That never happened. I'm super flattered by that fake news, but no, no, that never came to me. Doryn Wallach: Although, I'm not sure I could see you boiling of bunny, but maybe. Annie Potts: All right, no. No. I know I couldn't boil a bunny. Doryn Wallach: Well, Annie, I don't want to take more of your time. You are so generous to do the show for us. And I think you're going to speak to so many women. This is going to be extraordinarily helpful. And if there are not already in love with you, they're going to fall in love with you after this. So thank you for being here and for doing this with me. Annie Potts: Thank you. Thank you. What fun to do this since we met on a train and a floating island escaped a country that was on fire together. It was a pleasure. Doryn Wallach: You never know in life. You never know. Annie Potts: It's again, the harvest, you never know. Doryn Wallach: Right. Okay. Well, thank you again. And I hope to see you sometime soon in the near future. Annie Potts: Yeah. No. I haven't been to New York since last January now. I'm like, the idea that the whole Theater District is just caught in Amber and nothing that... Anyway, we got a vaccine coming soon and theater and everything else, we'll be back. Doryn Wallach: Right. And then we'll go to theater together. Annie Potts: We're building back better. Doryn Wallach: Yes. We're building back better. We will have a day to go to a Broadway show, the two of us, when this all ends. Annie Potts: Yes. Yes. Maybe I'll be in it. That's what I'd really love. Doryn Wallach: Yes. Annie Potts: All right, darling. Doryn Wallach: All right. Thank you again. Annie Potts: Thanks so much. Doryn Wallach: Okay. Annie Potts: Bye. Doryn Wallach: Bye. Thank you so much for listening. Remember to give yourself permission and know that you are not alone. Don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any episodes where. Reviews are always appreciated. And you can reach me by email at itsnotacrisis@gmail. Instagram, It's Not A Crisis podcast. And please, join our Facebook group as well. Until next time, just remember, it's not a crisis.

EPISODE 19 My wonderful guest and author, Christine Chang shares her experience with dating before she found her husband. 'Is there something wrong with me?’ - the question that most women who are dating are asking themselves constantly. Christine was motivated by this feeling and chose to write her book so that women who experience the same thing will know that they’re not alone. I hope EVERYONE will listen to this episode, it's just two women in their 40's talking about finding love, but I share some lessons I've learned from my 17 year marriage, my parent's marriage and more. Learn more about how to know yourself better, how to set up expectations, how to ask your date the best questions to know them and also how to ask yourself the best questions. ​ Check out Christine’s book ‘SHOW UP: Finding Love for Independent Women’ as well as her website and podcast at christinechang.com EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Doryn Wallach: Welcome to It's Not a Crisis. I am your host Doryn Wallach. I'm an entrepreneur, a mother of two, a wife and a 40 something trying to figure out what is happening in this decade. Why is no one talking about it? I created this podcast to help women in their late 30s and 40s to figure out what is going on in our mind, body, soul and life. We may laugh, we may cry, we may get frustrated, but most importantly my goal is to make this next chapter of life positive. I'm also full of my own questions and I'm here to go on this journey with you. So let's do it together. Hi everyone. Welcome to another episode. This has been a ... Well, will be a crazy week for me because I'm recording three podcasts this week and I just started thinking to myself, I need to get someone to come onto the show to talk to me about balance. An expert to talk to all of us about balance because when I get excited about something I really go for it and I love it. I love doing this so I don't want to pass up an opportunity when I have a great guest that's available. But balance is important. We need to figure out how to integrate that somehow. Also I wanted to let you know that I am loving doing my Instagram feed so much. It brings me such happiness at the end of the day. And the flashbacks are the best thing ever. Not just for you but for me. It makes me so happy to see all of your responses and I love finding them. So thank you for that. I'll definitely do a couple of those a week. I try to do a couple flashbacks, a serious quote, a funny quote and maybe a live or a stupid TikTok or something like that. The other thing I wanted to mention is if you could all from now on just send you questions for the podcast to my email, itsnotacrisis@gmail. That way I can keep them more organized. I'm finding between the Facebook group and DMs and emails, I'm not able to keep up with everything. So send all your questions to itsnotacrisis@gmail. I will let you know that I got it. Or you can go in my bio and record a message. You'll see the link in there and that can either be put on the show or can just come directly to me. That's also really helpful to hear from you in person. I have to be honest with you about something and when I think that I've made a mistake or just had a wrong assumption about something and I learn and get educated about it, I'm always the first to admit that I made the mistake. But when I started this podcast I assumed most of my listeners would end up being married parents which is a ridiculous assumption and a lesson learned. I have had quite a few women email me about being singe after 40, afraid of never finding love again or even finding love for the first time, being alone without a family, being okay with being single without kids or just getting back into it after being out of it so long after a separation or divorce. So I wanted to make sure that I'm reaching that part of my audience. However, like I said on my divorce episode, you may never know when you're going to be single again 40 so everyone should listen to this regardless. My guest today Christine Chang is a best selling author and worldwide photographer based in Los Angeles. Christine Chang's work has been published in numerous magazines including People, US Weekly and Modern Luxury. Her authentic style has attracted celebrities such as Clint Eastwood, Pierce Brosnan and Jane Fonda. Her book, Show Up: Finding Love For Independent Women has helped thousands of professional women all over the world find love and ease the dating process. I feel like at this stage of our lives, single or married we're all trying to figure out who we are right now in our 40s or going into our 40s. And especially those of us who've actually been with a partner for many, many years. I've been with my husband I think 22 years altogether. It's a challenge because when you become a mother and wife you sometimes almost turn into each other. I'm sure you can relate to what I'm saying if you've been married for a long time. And then our kids are growing older and we're like who are we're like who are we and who do want to be at this next chapter of life? And Christine is going to break this down for you today in regards to being single, but I think it's an important lesson for everybody to pay attention to because I think that we're all trying to figure this out whether we're single or married or choose to not ever be married or not have kids. We're all in this stage of life where it's this next chapter that is so important. And it's okay if you haven't figured out who you are yet because I have not figured out who I am yet. And that's all right. I also wanted to let you know that I read some of her book this weekend and it's an easy, uplifting and fun read and I actually want to finish it even if it doesn't pertain to me. I have about six other books I have to read but I really loved it and I love her voice in it. It's super easy to read so I definitely recommend getting it. Welcome to the show Christine. Christine Chang: Thank you so much Doryn. Doryn Wallach: I loved our pre show phone call and I think if I was in LA we'd be really good friends. Christine Chang: Yes. I think you like all the same stuff I like from just seeing your Instagram posts. Doryn Wallach: I know. But also ... So I told you this weekend I started reading part of your book. I did not finish it. I looked at most of it and just kind of getting to know you through your book I was like oh, I like her even more. I love how real you are, I love how your voice is heard so well through your book and it's a very easy read when you just want to get to the point. So I enjoyed it. I actually would like to finish it but I have about six other books I have to read. At some point I'm going to go back to it. Christine Chang: Yeah. Well I mean thanks for reading it because I know you've already found love, you're happily married. But that's what I was telling you. I was like, don't feel the need to like read it like it's homework. Doryn Wallach: Well no, but it's research for me and I like to get to know my guests before we speak so it's always important for me to do a little bit of that beforehand. I'm excited for you to be here today because as I said in my intro I think I was under the assumption that most of listeners were married with kids which was dumb. And I've had so many women reach out to me and brave, brave comments and emails because I think it's not easy to admit that you're scared at this stage of life or that feeling like something is wrong with you because you didn't find love or being afraid to end up alone or whatever it is. I'm saying this to my listeners, thank you for reaching out to me. Without you reaching out to me I wouldn't have even thought of this as a topic. I had Amy Nobile on who was talking a little bit more about the process of dating but I feel what you're going to bring to the table today Christine goes a little deeper also kind of figuring out yourself. Because I feel like at this stage of our lives whether we're single or married, we're all trying to figure out who we are. Sometimes harder for those of us who have been with our partner for many years. Trying to figure out your authentic self after being with somebody for so long or being a mother is hard. To get started I think that you had talked a little bit about your book and we're going to talk about today self awareness which I think is so important. And I think that even if you're listening to this and you're not single, I think it's still a lesson to be learned and something to understand about yourself. Christine Chang: Oh absolutely. Self awareness I think is step one for having a happy life. Because if you don't know what you want or what you need or what your patterns are, you don't even know where to start. You'll just be on a hamster wheel doing things the way you've always been doing them. Doryn Wallach: Before we get into self awareness I just want to talk a little bit about your book because I think it's going the lay the groundwork for this podcast and if you can quickly tell me your story and what inspired you to write the book in your life prior to that. Christine Chang: Absolutely. So this book is based on my experience dating before I met my husband, which at times were extremely frustrating. Especially being a very capable independent woman that was good at a lot of things. I felt really happy with my career. And the only part of my life that seemed to be challenging was dating and romantic relationships. The baseline thing that I felt was, is there something wrong with me? Oh my god. Is there something wrong with me? And I felt alone. I felt like no one completely understood. So the reason I wrote the book is because I feel like there are a lot of resources out there or how tos and things like that but no one talks about how crappy it feels when you're going through it. And so I wanted to empathize because I know I can't be the only one who feels this way. And in talking to my friends and more women I definitely knew there are definitely more people out there that feel this way. That's the best feedback I've gotten so far for my book is women saying, "Thank you show much for validating how I feel because I feel crazy right now." But you're not alone. You're absolutely not alone. So in addition to empathizing and I share some of my personal stories, but also some of the practical questions I ask myself to get clear on the process of what I wanted, what I needed, what I wanted to create in my life, areas I needed to heal. And I also just wanted it to be in a short book that was easy and to the point because I'm also one that doesn't like to waste time. And if you are a powerhouse woman you are probably the same. You just want to get to the point. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. And it really is. It really is to the point. I love how at the end of every chapter there's like a little tip that you can just remember. Your personal stories are great. There were so many funny ones. One of the ones was a guy you were dating that you just ... I don't think this was your husband but you were dating and you were ... Oh, it was a friend of your and you basically just called him back and said, "Hey, I like you. I like you more than friends." Which is a hard thing to do. May I ask how old you are? In our 20s we were all part of the rules book and men are from Mars, Women are from Venus and all the stuff we weren't supposed to do or supposed to do and a lot of game playing. So I loved that because I feel like when you get to your late 30s and 40s you're just over the games. It's just like let's do this or not do this. I thought it was very brave of you. So in writing the book as we spoke about before, you had mentioned self awareness. I'd love to hear a little bit more about what that means in starting a journey of finding love. Christine Chang: Sure. So with self awareness one first thing that you can start to dive into or ask yourself are, what are the stories that you have about love and relationships? And often they'll feel like the truth because that's what you've experienced. But a lot of it is just a story. For example, most men cheat or I'm too old to find someone or there's no good men out there. What you believe is true so the more that you feel strongly about these stories, the more that you're going to find things to validate that it's true for you. So being able to distinguish what is truth and what is something that you just made up based on previous experience. And it could be ... A lot of those stories stem from childhood as well. For me personally when I went back like all those ... Everyone has triggers. All those stem from childhood stuff that just stacks up, maybe even subconsciously. And I've had so many aha moments where I'm like oh my gosh, that's where it comes from. That's why I'm sensitive. Doryn Wallach: Can you give an example of one of those things? Christine Chang: Oh, so for example I'll use the example of feeling abandoned. So if someone doesn't ... If you're really sensitive to someone not calling you back or not showing up or being late to the airport, there could have been something that happened. For me it was when I was in grade school my parents worked a lot. They were building their company when my sister and I were growing up. And oftentimes we would be the last kids on the playground to be picked up. And sometimes it would start to get dark. That's like how late they were. Or they would send one of their employees to come pick us up too and I personally felt not important or forgotten about. So these patterns played out in my life where if I felt like I was forgotten about ... Like if a friend forgot to call me back or something, I'd be really sensitive to it. And it didn't play out in dating as well where I took it really personally when I felt not important or abandoned or like he didn't show up. That was one of my patterns. Actually I was like, why do I keep feeling this way? So that was definitely one of the things that I experienced growing up that I learned with self awareness. There's also a lot of other stores. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. No, no, no. [crosstalk 00:13:34]. You know what though, I think ... I've had a few friends that have been divorced. My mom got divorced when I was nine and she was 39 and so it was really just the two of us because my brother was older and I learned a lot from just being alone with her. And she didn't meet my stepfather until about two years after the divorce but it was the right timing because I think she had to do the work in therapy and she had to figure out who she was and what she wanted out of somebody and they have the most beautiful, beautiful marriage. In fact, while I love my dad and mom separately I can't imagine them being married. So I just think my stepfather is so perfect for my mom. But I don't think she would ever have gotten there, because she went through a really hard time during her divorce, if she hadn't done all the therapeutic work prior to that to figure out what are her triggers in relationships. So I'm glad that you're mentioning that because I think I've said to friends, "I'm not an expert but I really think you should spend some time on yourself before you jump out and date somebody else." And some of them have listened and some of them maybe not. Whatever. I'm not the one to tell them what to do but do think it's important. Christine Chang: Absolutely. And I would like to make it clear as well that I'm not a professional therapist or psychiatrist or anything like that. Doryn Wallach: Neither am I. Neither am I. Although I have a partial masters in social work. I don't think it counts. Christine Chang: Well, I also recommend that it's great to get advice from people who have the result that you want. So if you have a friend who's in a marriage that you admire, I do feel that advice from them can be better than from a professional who's done studies on a lot of things because how they're showing up is getting the result that you want. I'm big on logic so when I was single I would often go to my married friends who had a marriage that I admired for advice or I would just watch how they showed up. I liked that these women were really strong, had great careers but they were also very soft with their husbands and very fair and reasonable. So I just watched. And funny enough now, my relationship dynamic with my husband is very similar to the people I sought out to for advice because that's what I wanted to create. Doryn Wallach: That's great advice. What would be your next piece of advice to somebody after learning more about their self awareness? Christine Chang: Sure. One other important thing to look at with self awareness are your patterns. Because if you have a pattern it's not other people, it's not other things, it's you. You're the only constant variable. So for example if you tend to attract emotionally unavailable men, that is your pattern. It's not that all men are emotionally unavailable. So that is very important to know as well if you want to create something new. If you feel like what you're doing is not working, you do have to break those patterns. So the first step is being aware of them instead of being on autopilot. And a good way ... This sounds really silly but a good way to stop patterns ... Because if we're in late 30s, 40s you've been doing things a certain way for a while now. So it could be comfortable. So to break those patterns just to start reprogramming your nervous system. Start doing little things that are different. Like if you always scramble your eggs, cook them over easy. Take a dance class where you move completely different than you've ever moved before. And start doing little things every day that kind of get you out of that comfort zone to break patterns. And then eventually ... Because you know how they say how you are in one area of your life it kind of pours into all other areas? After you have the awareness and you start doing these ... Of course it takes a lot more courage to break the bigger patterns like say there's an emotionally unavailable guy that you're kind of dating and it's like yes or no. You need to learn to say no. This isn't going to work. This is also ... We can go into clarity of what you want because once you're very clear on what you want and what you need, you'll have more confidence in dating. Doryn Wallach: Seems kind of daunting though to get to that point. Is it just experience? Is it just- Christine Chang: Yeah. It's gets easier with time. For myself, as I did it more it became easier to say no. And when I became clear ... For example my core value is integrity. And this is a good thing to know, is your core values. So me knowing that my core value is integrity, when I was dating if someone showed me they don't have it, that was an automatic no. No matter how much chemistry we had, if he "got me", chemistry is amazing, it doesn't matter. That has to be in place. And so that made it easier for me to say no and me feeling more confident in saying no. Just knowing like, I want to create a relationship with someone's who's honest and that has integrity. So basically I cannot choose a person that has that. That's going to make it impossible. Doryn Wallach: Did you make a list? Did you keep something on your phone? Christine Chang: I did. Doryn Wallach: Yeah, I'm sure. Christine Chang: I did. Doryn Wallach: That's totally something I would do. Christine Chang: It is extremely helpful and also with the list it's good to ... First just if you've never made a list before write down just what's on your mind, like preferences. But also, determine what's negotiable and what's nonnegotiable. Because with a lot of women who are in their 40s and are good with their careers, they tend to be a little rigid with things. And so with your list, just to know which ones are negotiable and what things would matter in the long run. Because you're happily married right? So can I ask you, what are some of your favorite qualities about your husband? Doryn Wallach: First and foremost he's my best friend and I don't think there's anybody I could spend as much time with as I do him. In fact, he took a summer, he quit his job and our kids went to camp and we spent every living moment together for a couple of months and then the pandemic he was home all summer. Which I'm not going to sit here and say it was great at all times. But we laugh and say, there's no one else I could do this with. For me, that's really important. I think he's extremely loyal and genuine. I'm a free spirit and in ... And I met him very young. I was 21. But I've always been like that and I've always been very independent and he allows me to be that way. If I say to him, "Hey, I'm going away for the night because I need to get the hell out of here and the kids are driving me crazy and I need a moment.", he's like, "All right." He's never like, "What do you mean? Why aren't I coming?" He just gets me in that way. I think that's so important. He respects my alone time. Listen, no marriage is perfect but my husband, definitely his positive qualities outweigh his negative qualities. Christine Chang: Yes. Yes. And that's and that's another thing too. Little note is ... This is the number one piece of advice or way of showing up that I've seen in happily married couples. Is the good also comes with the bad too, but it's your outlook. If you want to look for every bad thing in a person or in a marriage, you can absolutely find that. And you'll start to see more of it if you're focusing on the bad stuff. But if you look at the good stuff ... And the people who are happily married tend to be more positive and looking at their partner's good qualities. Because at least for me personally on a bad day I can get annoyed about so many things that my husband does. Doryn Wallach: Of course. Any you know- Christine Chang: Right? Doryn Wallach: Oh my, yeah. Absolutely. There was a moment this summer where his chewing was driving ... I was like, "I can't be in the room with you while you're chewing." He like chews with his mouth closed but I just ... I went through a period definitely ... We went through a period in our marriage where I think I started to question everything and it was just something that I was going through but I really started looking at our marriage and my husband. I was maybe thinking I needed certain things at that time. And after doing the work in therapy I realized that it was first of all, you're never going to find everything in one person. That's just not ... Doesn't happen that way. And like I said before, there's so many wonderful positive things about him in our relationship that outweighed anything bad but even when you're married you sometimes start to do that a little bit and then you have to be reminded. And sometimes some women really do have bad issues that they have to reevaluate. But I just wanted to make that clear that even in marriage and relationships and to what you just said, if you're looking for perfection, you're never going to find that. And once you're with someone for a long time you have to learn to grow with them even if you're growing apart, if that makes any sense. Christine Chang: Absolutely. This is where I think community comes in too. Where having friends and interests outside of your marriage or your relationship is really, really important. I mean, humans are made to function in villages and a lot of people ... If you grew up on Disney and you watch rom-coms and things like that, it doesn't work that way. Like you will be very disappointed if you think once you meet a person that they're going fulfill every single thing that you want and need. It doesn't work that way. So I do think a community, whether it's your family, your friends and also your own hobbies and things like that. And self care like you said. It's easy to lose yourself with you're married or when you have kids. So to remember the things that make you you outside of your marriage. Doryn Wallach: What do you think from what you've researched or women you've talked so is the main issue with women kind of going in their 40s with finding somebody? Because I get what you're saying. I think when we were younger and the pool was bigger our expectations of what we wanted was higher. Not to say that someone does not deserve to have all that they want. But it's more a maturity thing in my opinion. You start to realize that. But what do you see the most from women that you've talked to that is their biggest issue? Christine Chang: I think staying open. A lot of them I feel are too critical of others. And it's funny because the ones that are perpetually single, they usually ... What I hear are things that don't matter in the long run. Something regarding his hairline or something like that. And of course you do have to be attracted. You should be attracted to your person. But things that ... I feel like the things they're looking at are great for short term relationships. Fine, go after those qualities. But also don't forget about ... Look at the other stuff as well. His character. How he shows up for you. When you're crying your eyes out how does he show up for you? Again, it's the perfection in that. Because you always want things to be better. You always want things to be better. So I think it pours over. So once even if they get into the relationship they're always trying to fix things or wanting perfection and just letting go of that and giving people a chance. You have to have your boundaries right? So knowing again, what is nonnegotiable and what is negotiable. Doryn Wallach: You're talking about the hairline or this or that. When you're married for many, many years to someone, you are going to experience way more than just a bad hairline. There are things that you're going to see in your spouse that'll be not attractive and I'm talking both ways. You're going to see each other at your worst, you're going to see each other sick. There are just so many things. I actually said to my husband yesterday ... I forget what I was talking about. But I was like, "God, it's a good thing you love me." Or something like ... He's like, "Yeah I know." And then he's like, "No, of course I love you. I love everything about you." Which is bullshit but that's okay. As he shouldn't love everything about me. Just realizing that marriage is ... You go through a lot with somebody and those other things kind of become irrelevant. Christine Chang: Absolutely. And you're completely right. There are going to be times that are not sexy. You're going to see some stuff that is not sexy. So if you want passion all the time, it's not going to happen. Unless you have ... Some people are addicted to passion so they'll choose partners who give them a very turbulent relationship. That push pull. But how long can you do that for? It's like running a marathon. Are you going to do that for 20 years? Passion could be fun. You want to go to Bali and have a short term thing? Doryn Wallach: Yeah. I was just about to say, passion is good in the short term but I think friends of mine that I know that have kind of passionate relationships ... And I'm not going to say ... I mean yes, they're very attracted to each other and they are loving to each other. But they also fight a lot and have been known to throw things at each other. If that's your speed and that's what you want then that's great. But you have to really know that that's what you're getting yourself into if that's the back and forth you want as you just said. Christine Chang: Absolutely. And I mean, I personally find that exhausting. And if you think longterm, 10, 20 years, for me I wanted ease. I was looking for ease, I wanted to feel safe, I wanted a best friend. And I feel like life is hard enough as it is. I told myself, I don't need the main relationship in my life to be one of those challenges. I want it to be my safe place. So that's what I looked for. And a lot of women will say, "Yeah, yeah. That's what I want too." But then when they meet a guy like that they'll say he's boring. And there are parts of marriage that can be boring. Doryn Wallach: There are a lot of parts of marriage that are boring. Christine Chang: Right. Because it's predictable. Because the person is reliable. They'll show up for you. Doryn Wallach: I know things that are coming out of my husbands mouth before they come out almost every single ... I can predict sentences that are about to come out of his mouth. Christine Chang: Right. So it's what would you rather have? So when you're dating in your 40s it's good to be clear on what you're looking for because are you looking for your next life partner or co pilot in life or are you looking just to date just to get to know yourself right now? Because that will determine how you want to show up as well. Or if you have kids, are you looking for someone that you can introduce to your kids that you want to bring home? And I think if you're kind of freshly divorced or you're creating a new chapter of your life, I think the diving into learning about yourself should be the priority first. And go into the mindset of dating with curiosity that you are learning about yourself. Not I'm trying to make things work. I want to get this right. Because that kind of energy is ... Number one, even if you don't straight out say it, people can feel that pressure and last I checked, no one likes that kind of pressure when it comes to dating. Viewing it as curiosity makes it fun. Doryn Wallach: Right. And I'd also ... I would imagine that after ... Especially if you've divorced and have been married a long time, it's like being in your early 20s again. You need to date. You might even need to have a relationship before you find that relationship to kind of relearn again what it is you do and don't want. You might not even know until you experience it. Christine Chang: Totally. Aren't you still learning things about yourself even in your marriage? Doryn Wallach: Oh, of course. Daily. Christine Chang: Yeah. It never stops. So as you're dating more when you have your list of preferences ... I updated mine as I dated. And a lot of times it'd be something like ... Usually it was on the bad side more, like oh, I definitely don't want someone who smokes or something like that. For me personally, that was nonnegotiable just because health is really important to me. But I mean, whatever. Or you'll learn that someone does something and you didn't even know that you were attracted to this kind of person. Like, oh, I like that. I like when a guy does that. Doryn Wallach: A topic that's come up a lot of my friends that are dating right now, and this is relevant to what's going on right now, how do you date or meet somebody in COVID? Do you have any tips on this? Christine Chang: Sure. Doryn Wallach: Honestly, for the women, I think it's very depressing for some women that I've talked to who are like, "I was kind of just getting started and then this happened and now what? How long is this going to go on for before I can see somebody that I trust and be intimate with somebody?" I think that must be really scary. I've thought about it a lot. Christine Chang: Right. I think it can be a fantastic time to meet someone now in that with the Zoom calls and things like that, there's more Zoom calls in general before you meet them in person because of COVID. You get to know them better. People have to put forth more effort. So it weeds out people pretty quick if they're not willing to put forth the effort to get to know you in that way. Or you learn what some of their values are. Like how they handle COVID or the current political climate. You learn about someone faster now because you see what they're like in a more stressful situation. So in that sense it's a good thing. And online dating, I know people have mixed feelings about online dating and those dating apps. I usually recommend if you really do not feel good about it, do not go swipe because it's just going to be really depressing for you. However, if you are in a more optimistic head space, that's when you can go swipe. And it's just another way of meeting people. There's nothing good or bad about it. It's just like swiping through, again, with curiosity. Just see where it goes. You're not committing to anything yet right? Doryn Wallach: How else do you meet people today? Last time I went on a date was 1996. Christine Chang: Okay. It might be a little different with COVID but in general, I mean from a logic perspective too, the more you are around people, the more people you'll meet. Whether it is a romantic interest or not. And so that's why I usually recommend people do the things that genuinely interest you. Because even if you meet a romantic partner or not, you're meeting cool people that like to do the same things you like to do and they might have friends. So you're increasing your chances by being around people. Because if you're just in your house or your apartment all the time and you're not online dating, you're not talking to anyone, it's a very low chance you'll meet someone new because you're just talking to the same friends and things like that. Some women say, "But I'm so introverted." I mean, I grew up super shy and introverted but it's something I wanted to change for myself. Number one, I did it for work. I needed to be a people person for work. But it poured over to my personal life as well that I wanted to create a community of friends and I wanted to date and meet a guy so I had to learn to come out of my shell. Doryn Wallach: This is really funny because the other day I was having a therapy session and I said, "I'm kind of an introvert/extrovert. I can talk to anybody and I love being around people but then I get like ooh. I'm antisocial for a little while. It's too much for me and I'm happy just being at home. But I was saying to my therapist, I said, "Now that I'm working from home and basically my only interacting during the day is going to pick my son up at school and maybe occasionally seeing a friend if I can," I said, "really I'm having a hard time with not having any interaction with people outside of my family." And she said to me, "Well, go join some sort of group or go find your people somewhere, whatever that is." And I said, "It's COVID. It's not so easy to do that." She's like, "You know Doryn, there are things going on outside. There are things going on online. There are ways to do that." So I think the advice stands for both dating or just being lonely at home at this stage of our lives during COVID. Christine Chang: Absolutely. Yeah, a lot of people are feeling lonely right now. Just know you're not alone and I mean, people feel different about COVID, but if you really don't want to be outside around people, you can join an online book club. You just meet people. You just want to meet people. Everyone knows someone. Really focus on just feeling good and things that make you happy. Because that is a good indicator that you're in alignment and on the right track. Because in life most people just say, "I want to feel good and I want to be happy." So if you do feel good and you do feel happy, what's going on externally in your life, whether there's a partner or not, those things matter less. Because sometimes people will get the partner and then they're still miserable. So it's like what's the point? What's the point right? Why do you want that? So when you're dating think about feeling good. What makes you feel good? And your emotional intelligence system I think is just very intelligent and that will tell you if you're on the right track. Doryn Wallach: I think also thinking about ... I've mentioned this before just to women our age. But I think thinking about things that brought you joy when you were a child, as silly as that sounds. Like what were your friends like at that time? Before you formed who you were and you formed insecurity and shyness, whatever it is that happened as you grew older, what were you looking for in those people? It's interesting. I say that with interests now. What brought you joy? I'm trying to bring back those things into my life. I have an electric scooter that I love and I just go out on it and I go up the West Side Highway in Manhattan and it just makes me so happy. And I loved scooting when I was a kid. I think it works kind of in that direction too. If there's something that brought you joy, maybe it's important to find a partner who also does that or lifts you or makes you step outside of your comfort zone if you're a person that's used to sticking to a comfort zone. Christine Chang: Absolutely. And you're right, a lot of our needs and our wishes and desires, it's the little kid in us. Those needs. And it could be something as simple as start drawing again or just playing. Being more playful with things. Not trying to get results or not caring too much what people think. I mean, that's a tough one to work on but the more that I personally worked on it, caring less what other people think, that's made life a lot, lot easier. Doryn Wallach: You had mentioned to me that you had three excellent questions to ask on a first date to get a glimpse of someone's character. And I want to hear those. I just told somebody recently, we're contemplating leaving Manhattan and she brought the town my husband grew up in, and I said, "Do you know on our first date when he said he grew up there, I was like, 'I just want you to know I'm never going to live there.' And he was like, 'What? It's our first date.' I was like, 'It's just not the town for me so I just want to be clear about that.'" It was very funny. That's just who I am. I'm very much like here's who I am and if you don't like me then move on. So tell me, what are the three excellent questions? Christine Chang: Sure. And by the way, I love being direct as well. I think the distinction is when you're direct it's more inquisitive instead ... Or out of curiosity versus you're interrogating someone. Like I'm just curious. So the first question is what have been your relationship patterns? And I like this question because it shows how much self awareness someone has. Whether they've healed from previous relationships. Because if they get triggered and I don't even want to talk about it, you know they're not fully healed from it. How vulnerable they're willing to be. I think it tells a lot about where someone is and especially self awareness. Because when I did a lot of work on myself I wanted someone who had done the work on themselves as well, who had dove into it. Because I was so clear on who I was at that point that if they have zero awareness of what they've done in the past or what kind of patterns that they've had that just hasn't worked out, that would have probably been a touch relationship. So that's the first question that I love to ask. And by the way, this doesn't necessarily have to be on the first date. It could just be when you're comfortable, like gradually getting to know somebody. And the second question is asking about their friends. Like who's your best friend? What do you like about him? Because I think friends are a really good indicator of who somebody is. Doryn Wallach: Stay away from the guy who has no friends. Christine Chang: Correct. Absolutely. That is a flag if they do not have any friends. And if they have longterm friendships, that is a good sign. That's loyalty right there. They know how to maintain a longterm relationship. Doryn Wallach: My husband is still friends with nine of his high school, elementary school friends and even larger amount of his college friends. And that to me is so telling of who he is. Christine Chang: Absolutely. That's such a good skill. Two of my good friends are from college but I don't really keep in touch with anyone from high school. But I feel like in general men tend to be pretty loyal with that. I mean, that they have childhood friends. Doryn Wallach: But they don't want to make the effort later in life to meet new people. Christine Chang: Right. So asking about their best friend and what they like about them. Or their family as well. Like if family's really important to you, asking like, "Oh, how often do you see your family?" Or, "Where does your family live?" And that will tell a lot about a person as well is their relationship with their family. And the third question is what are your pet peeves? Because it shows someone's tolerance levels, it shows whether they take responsibility for things or they're more blaming. What is the tone that they say it? Like, "I can't stand when people chew like that." Or is it like, "I don't know. I have this weird thing with when people chew. I'm really sensitive to it." So those three questions- Doryn Wallach: That's great. I love that. Christine Chang: Would give you some insight. Doryn Wallach: I love that. And also, if it's something that you do that is their pet peeve, that's a good red flag. Christine Chang: Right. Like, oh- Doryn Wallach: Might be something you don't want to give up. Might just part of ... No. That's what I do. What are the three important questions to ask yourself when choosing a life partner? Christine Chang: Sure. The first one, I mean, this might sound silly and obvious, but do they want to be in a committed relationship with you? Because some people, especially if you tend to be the chaser or want to convince someone something ... I mean, that is number one. Do they want to be in a committed relationship with you? Because you should not have to convince anybody that they should want to be with you. And for me, because my self worth used to be not high in this area, so sometimes when I was dating they wouldn't be sure. Or there would be another woman and he's dating and I would stay. And then when I healed that part of me and I got so clear I was just like if it's not me it's a no. Because I deserve someone who is sure that they want to be with me. Because I like me. And it's okay if you don't like me but I like me. Doryn Wallach: Yeah, you have to feel good about yourself. Christine Chang: Mm-hmm (affirmative). So that's the first question. And then the second one is what are your values? It's good to know this because the other person's values should most likely be similar if you want a longterm relationship. Because if they're not, I think in the long run it's not going to work out. And also, what's their character? Because character trumps personality. Of course you want someone that has a good personality, however they're character ... Do they lie? Do they think it's okay to lie? Little things like that. You have to look at that more so than oh, but he's so funny. He's so charming. So make sure you look at his character. And also does he care how you feel? Does he genuinely care how you feel? If you're upset does that bother him? For me, it definitely should bother him Doryn Wallach: Right, right, right. Of course. Christine Chang: And my husband's so lovely with that. He genuinely cares. Even it's something little like I can't find something, he make a genuine effort to help me look for it. He cares a lot. And that's kindness. Doryn Wallach: Yeah. My husband's like that too. And he always finds it. I lose things all the time and he ... I lost an earring the other day in a patterned rug and I looked forever and he's like, "Here it is." Christine Chang: Oh. It's so sweet because sometimes people just don't care. They're like, "I don't know where it is." So do they care how you feel? And the last one is what is the shared purpose or goal of you guys being together? Because that is actually more important than compatibility. Why do you want to be in a relationship? Is it you want to be best friends and do everything together and then you guys build a family and then the family does everything together? Or do you want someone who lets you be you and respects your independence? Sometimes you come together and you support each other in this way but then you also have your own thing going on. Or some people have a dynamic like, "Hey's my sugar daddy and he pays for everything and the agreement is basically I just leave him alone and let him do his own thing." But those relationships work because both parties agree to the shared purpose or goal of that relationship. So if you're not on the same page of that, it's not going to work out in the long run either. Those are the three questions to ask yourself before choosing a partner. Doryn Wallach: Well, those are great questions. My mom always told me that the one thing that you should look for when you're dating somebody is to see how they treat their mother. Christine Chang: Yeah. It is spot on. And let me tell you, I photographed weddings for 15 years because I just was drawn to seeing family dynamics and things like that. And the way that the groom treated their mom, it is so accurate is the way that he treated his partner, new wife. Doryn Wallach: And by the way, also your parents' marriage. I had an example of a not so great marriage but then I had an example of a respectful, wonderful marriage between my mom and stepfather. So I was very lucky to have that experience. Not to say that somebody who grew up with parents that didn't have a good relationship are going to fail in marriage but my mother was able to learn from her mistakes from her first marriage in her second marriage. And growing up ... He came into our lives when I was 12. So right around that time that you start dating boys and everything. I was able to see what I deserve in a man. So I think it's another important thing to look at. Christine Chang: Yeah. Absolutely. And I think positive role models as well. My parents, they're good at a lot of things. I would say in the marriage aspect, I didn't want what they had so I sought that out with my friendships. Yeah, having role models in that area of my life. Doryn Wallach: Well, this was so wonderful and I really hope that we answered questions for those of you that have been asking me. Christine, tell everybody again the name of your book. Christine Chang: Sure. It's called Show Up: Finding Love for Independent Women, and it's available on Amazon. And my website is christinechang.com and all my info is on there. Doryn Wallach: Okay, great. Thank you so much for coming on the show. This was actually fun. I didn't expect to talk about my marriage but hopefully I helped some people because I have a little experience. I am not perfect at it by any means. I make mistakes all the time. But if I could tell anybody about a long distance relationship, you are constantly doing work. And if you're not doing work you're doing it wrong. And when I was younger I didn't understand that until I had kids and life got messy and you have to continuously put work into it and that's okay. It's good to do that and you should do that. Christine Chang: Absolutely. And that's what I'm learning now. I mean, I help women find their life partner but it's funny because on my podcast I'm interviewing successful women who have been married for a long time because I myself want to learn, okay, what do I have to do to maintain this and maintain a happy marriage. And it's been so nice to hear the truth about it. Of course, as you know, there's the lovely parts, great parts, but at the same time the reality of it is it is constant work. Constant checking in with yourself, checking in with your partner. Doryn Wallach: Yep. And you know what, even if you're in couples therapy, there's nothing wrong with that. It's actually a very positive thing. I think it's Catholicism where you have to do premarital counseling. Christine Chang: Yes. Doryn Wallach: Right? Christine Chang: Smart. Doryn Wallach: I think it's so smart. So smart. I mean, I in some ways wish we did that. I don't know. I just think it's very, very, very smart. And I don't think there's anything ... Even if you were in the most ... I have friends in the most wonderful marriages ever that are in couples therapy. You sometimes just need a third party to make you rethink certain things that you do or get you out of habits and that's okay and it's a very normal part of a marriage. It's nothing to be ashamed of. Or any relationship. Christine Chang: It is so good. I feel like the people who are usually really judgmental about it too, usually in my head I'm like, "I think you should be going." I don't say that,, but- Doryn Wallach: You're the one that needs ... Yeah, they're stubborn about it and they're like, "Nah. I'm good. Everything's good in our marriage." And I'm like, "No. I know for a fact everything is not good and you're just being stubborn and you need it more than anybody else." So on that note, thank you again for coming on the show and I actually will finish your book because I found it entertaining. So I'll let you know when I do that. Christine Chang: Thank you. Thank you so much. Doryn Wallach: Okay. Take care. Christine Chang: You too. Doryn Wallach: Thank you so much for listening. Remember to give yourself permission and know that you are not alone. Don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any episodes. Reviews are always appreciated. And you can reach me by email at itsnotacrisis@gmail.com. Instagram, itsnotacrisispodcast. And please join our Facebook group as well. Until next time, just remember, it's not a crisis.

In this episode, I am joined by Hilani Ellis, as we discuss practical ways to get back into the workforce in your 40’s. How do you know when you should get back? What career should you choose now? How do you find the job that fits you best? We touch on all these topics and many more. Hilani Ellis is the founder of Exceptional Admins, a company that helps executives find the perfect admins for their business. She has been coined a CEO Assistant Matchmaker by her clients because of her special abilities to recognize the compatibility between two employees. Her experience and process will definitely prove insightful to many of you who are on the verge of taking this next step. ​ Visit Hilani’s website here. Also check out her own podcast Exceptional Admins EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Doryn Wallach: Welcome to It's Not A Crisis. I am your host Doryn Wallach. I'm an entrepreneur, a mother of two, a wife and a 40 something, trying to figure out what is happening in this decade. Why is no one talking about it? I created this podcast to help women in their late thirties and forties to figure out what is going on in our mind, body, soul, and life. We may laugh, we may cry, we may get frustrated, but most importantly, my goal is to make this next chapter of life positive. I'm also full of my own questions. And I'm here to go on this journey with you. So let's do it together. Welcome to another episode, and thank you for coming back. I have to say that because I appreciate that you're coming back and listening and that you liked the other episodes. So I normally do my intro before the show, and I'm still learning this whole podcast thing. But today I had a feeling that I was going to need to do it after. And I'm so happy that I did. Today's show was such a great show. It brought up so many questions that we have as women and mothers at this time in our lives. And thinking about working or just doing something with our minds that stimulates us, our kids are getting older or even our kids are young and we still want to work or do something. So we get into a lot of talking about what you can do if you are staying at home, what you can do to prepare for later. And I'm going to have her back on the show because there are so many other things that I want to touch on, but I've been fortunate enough to have my foot in the door throughout the years of being a mom for 13 years, because I've been able to run my own businesses. And so I've gotten experience on different things here and there. But what I learned today is that I think if I went into a corporate job and said, "Hey, I'd like a job." I don't know that I would be prepared at all. And not because I'm not experienced, but because I don't even know the first thing about what it's like to go get a corporate job these days, she touches on that a little bit. It's really, really a great show. And I've received numerous messages from all of you on this. So I've gotten tons. So I hope that we answered all of the questions that you've asked. She is awesome. She's available after to email her and ask anything else that you want to ask her. My guest today, Hilani Ellis is the well-known business owner behind Exceptional Admins, a boutique specialized placement and training firm. Her depth of expertise stems from working for over a decade as an administrative professional, her previous roles were anything but ordinary. It's the dynamic job circumstances that helped Hilani build a unique foundation atypical of traditional administrative roles. Later in her career, Hilani transitioned from holding a corporate seat to launching Exceptional Admins. The mission and vision of the firm is to support leaders and other administrative professionals with their talent needs, whether hiring or training. Today, Hilani's journey, grants her an edge when she engages with others on the topic of authentic leadership and or administrative greatness. Her understanding of the job's complexities brings clarity and energy to a trailing and misunderstood field. She believes everyone has unique gifts that support being highly impactful to business goals. If you can hear me smiling, I'm smiling because even her description about herself is just so intuitive and she really understands who she is. And so I hope you enjoy the show. Doryn Wallach: Hilani, welcome to the show. I'm very excited to have you here today. Hilani Ellis: Thank you for hosting me. It's going to be a great conversation. Very excited to be here at the podcast, It's Not A Crisis. Doryn Wallach: It's Not A Crisis. I loved our first conversation. Can you remind me again how you found me? Hilani Ellis: Yeah. I was on Instagram, on my business page, which is Exceptional Admins, and I did a general hashtag search for podcasts, and yours popped up right there. And like most people, went ahead and stalked you for a little bit, checked out your feed, noticed billing to access your jewelry line, which is gorgeous by the way. And then your podcast, which was essentially the reason for doing the hashtag search. And I listened to one of the episodes and completely stopped dead in my tracks. I'm like, "This woman's great. I'm going to totally jive with her. She's going to totally get me. I should introduce myself and suggest an idea to be a guest on your show." Doryn Wallach: Yeah. So I always talk to my guests to make sure that there's chemistry there because they could know everything. And if we don't have chemistry, it's just not going to work. And also I pride myself on being real and who I am. And if I'm talking to someone who phony, I don't even have friends like that. Hilani Ellis: Well, kind of to the audience profile that you have that's just a little bit of a gear, even though young people and older people in their journey in life can listen to it. We start to get to a position where we just need authenticity, realism. And so I totally hear you there. Doryn Wallach: For sure. Okay. Well, I'd love to start with your backstory that leads you to what you're doing today. Hilani Ellis: Mm-hmm (affirmative). So I'm 41 and I've had quite of an interesting journey. I started in Florida, lived in Los Angeles for a good while, I now live in Colorado. And today I'm a specialized headhunter specific to helping leaders be it executives in organizations, or very powerful entrepreneurs find their strategic business partner, which could be labeled as an administrative professional. I did waitressing a lot throughout high school and also right before I took a corporate role. Fast forward, I took another role for about four years as an executive assistant within a sound technology company. And then I took a break. I had my first child. I was home for eight years as the CEO of the house and everything involved in that. Made the move to Colorado and was finishing out kind of my time at home. I ran a very small business to just, again, continue to be connected with myself. I took an amazing opportunity to put myself out there. I applied for a job. I interviewed, I left that interview so excited to go back to working again. And I left that interview, I'm like, "I still got it." And the cool thing, but also the bizarre thing when I did the math, I hadn't interviewed for a job in 12 years, 12 years, interviewed landed a job for four, took eight years off. Doryn Wallach: And your child's I assume was eight at this point. Hilani Ellis: Yeah, he was, he was eight. And then my youngest was almost three, but it was an amazing opportunity. I took it, loved the job, was in that role for four years. And at the end of the first year, I started having interactions with other influential leaders in the community that were very close to my executive. And I started to notice a trend that, which if you're very good and love what you do as an administrative individual, you wind up building relationships with these very important busy people because they trust you. I left the corporate world in May of 2017 to really give the attention to my business, Exceptional Admins that was necessary to become a specialized headhunter. Doryn Wallach: Well, you're clearly very intuitive as well, which I think you can't just... There are a lot of recruiters and headhunters who aren't so great at what they do, because they're not that in tune to other people. So it's immediately obvious to me that you have that gift. And I don't think that that's something that can be learned. So well, you mentioned staying home for eight years as the CEO of the house. I love that. I always call myself the momagement or something like that. I write notes all around the house and say like, wash your hands, the momagement. Do this, the [inaudible 00:07:45], yeah. Hilani Ellis: Oh, that's awesome. I haven't heard that one yet. I'm up to use that. I'll give you credit. Doryn Wallach: Thank you. I appreciate that. I don't think I came up with it though. When did you realize that it was time to stop staying home with kids and getting out and going back to work? Because I think a lot of women feel this many times throughout their years of being stay-at-home moms, but they're either too scared to do it or just kind of say in their head. "Well, when my kids go to college, I'll think about doing something then." But it's also pretty... That idea is very daunting because so much time passes. I stayed home for five years. Hilani Ellis: Which feels like 10. Doryn Wallach: They did, those toddler years were not easy. Those were the hard years to be home. And they don't remember, by the way, at all. They're like, "Mommy, you were working a lot yesterday." And like, "I stayed home with you for five years. We went out every day. I did those dumb mommy and me classes. We had lunch together. We did all this stuff and you remember nothing and then nothing." So by the way, ladies, if you're staying home with your little kids, they're not going to remember it. So don't feel guilty if you... I don't know. Okay. So back to my question, what made you realize it was time to go back to the office? Hilani Ellis: I declared to myself that I wouldn't lose identity. I wouldn't only be Brendan's mom, Todd's wife or Brody's mom. I was Hilani. And when I realized that that was going to be really important because just like you said, actually, they don't remember, right? You're home for five years, they don't remember those moments. I'm going to have to go back and be me someday. So if I forget about me, there's this whole entire period of having to reconnect with myself. So, if you've lost sight of you, it's okay. There is still plenty of time for you to make that connection. So, as I mentioned, and you just reminded me, eight years is when I was home. That's a long time. And when I had my first child, my kids are four and a half years apart. It was really one-on-one, he's the compliant child. The second one, not so much. The first thing was I'm very type A. Oh my gosh. And the type A that I had over time, even in those first years and when the second one was born, who's strong-willed, which I described actually is very passionate about many things. I started to realize I was suffocating myself. And until I recognize, and I think I said this to you in our first call and you laughed, I am no longer an upper case type A, I am a type A lowercase, but if you need that upper case, I can turn that dial at any time. My first child was awesome. We kind of really got excited about the next one. And as I mentioned, he's strong-willed and it just put me in a position of start assessing, not judging, but assessing, "What am I doing? Where am I going? When does my next chapter of Hilani? I've covered mom, I've been in this role at home eight years." As I mentioned, I ran a small business to just sort of stay engaged mentally, which kept my office skills, polished, poised, and ready to go. Should I be back in front of that resume, ready to apply and begin looking for what made me feel alive inside, an administrative role. So I was sitting down one night and I distinctly remember it was in December of 2012. And I said, "I think it's time." And I went on the job boards, Monster at the time, which no one really uses today. And this one stuck out to me, executive and personal assistant. I was like, "I like this." So really making a lot of commitments to myself to be grounded, helped me come to the realization that it was time to head back to the office. And then that experience worked very much in my favor. And I truly believe it was also because of my mindset. I interviewed, landed it and I loved the four years I was with that executive. We're still very close. Doryn Wallach: Did you have normal hours when you were doing that? Hilani Ellis: Yeah. So I had to put my almost three-year-old into a pre-preschool. He was very accommodating at the fact that I was just reentering the workforce. So he gave me flexibility, but I also in return gave him trust that I had high integrity to perform well and never abuse a bit of that extra slack he gave me. So there was a give and a take with that. I had kind of a routine schedule. My husband got off work at 3:30 every day. So there was a real big benefit to that, to our story, that he was able to do pickup in case I got stuck in traffic, my commute was 30 minutes one way. And I was also in a heavy position of learning that if we were in the middle of a meeting at 5:30, I did not want to lose industry knowledge because it was private equity, which I knew nothing about. We sat down as a couple and we talked about it and I said, "It's time for me to go through this experience. And if it truly doesn't work out, I'm not going to be disappointed and I'll stay until the executive finds a replacement." So we created a plan, which I believe probably could have happened before I made that submission for the application. If I gave any advice, sit down, talk about a plan. Don't expect answers in the first meeting with your partner, start designing what would be an ideal scenario, multiple scenarios or a situation. Doryn Wallach: Right. And some women can't because it doesn't make sense for them financially to go back to work sometimes or vice versa to stay home. But just speaking from my own experience, I was fortunate enough to have a woman in the past few years who cleans for us and also helped me with pickups with my kids. So she did both things, but if I didn't have her, there is no way I would have been able to go to the office every day. And she's expensive. So you definitely have to think about it, really think it through before you do it. Hilani Ellis: Yeah, to add to that, you're right. It's got to make the right amount of sense. And when I think about what I started in making what the cost of childcare was, dry cleaning, car mileage, gas, all of those things, I genuinely believe my expenses overrode the profit, kind of to the declaration. I had made the point, but I'm doing something for myself that is for my mind. Doryn Wallach: I often felt guilty working because financially I didn't need to work, but I love to work, but love to be there for my kids too. So I'm lucky. I've always had to be able to balance both not well, but I have. Hilani Ellis: I think you brought up a really good word, guilty. And it is society that has forced that feeling and emotion on working women. I no longer allow the guilt because when I think about, "Am I having quality time or quantity time with my children?" I actually, when I went to the office, right at that first point of starting back into the workforce, I started to recognize that I was more intent with the time I spent with them. And not that I wasn't before, but it was even heightened, because I was gone all day. And I do believe that that blip in their story, which obviously was dictated by me being their mom, they feel that time with me. And we truly have memories made based on feeling, not only conversation, we pick up from a conversation, how did that make me feel? And then our memory is piqued at a higher level to create memories around what's going on. And so I say that here, because that guilt word is so powerful and I'm so glad you said it. If you are a stay-at-home mom or if you are in your maternity leave and you're feeling guilt for the fact that you're going back to work, knock it off. It's not necessary. Doryn Wallach: It isn't, but you know what, I think for me, if somebody said that to me when I was younger, and that my kids were younger, I'm not sure I could understand that as well as I do now. Because I think when they get older, you have confirmation from them that like, "Oh, okay, I don't care that you are at work late today." You know what I mean? But when they're little, you come in and it's the, "Mommy I missed you mommy. I want to be with mommy and I don't want mommy to leave for work." Now, I come home and I'm like, "Hello." And nobody wants anything to do with me. Listen, I can't even sit here and tell any woman, any mom to not feel guilty because it just continues throughout their entire time of being a mother. But yes, as they get older, there are the other things you become guilty about, but you let go of the other things once you have confirmation from your children that you're doing okay. They weren't traumatized that you were gone when they were two. And because they clearly don't remember it. Hilani Ellis: And you're touching on something great. It is the future and the uncertainty of not knowing what that looks like for everyone's individual story. So yeah, from my story, if I spoke back to my younger self, I might've given myself a little bit more grace with the worry, some that I welcomed into my particular story, but you're right. Feel what you should be feeling and be ready to embrace that next story, that's a part of... They're one-month older and then now, while they're celebrating another birthday. Doryn Wallach: What about the women that... I've friends who really don't want to go back to work, but then all of a sudden, now that their kids are teenagers or even going off to college, now they're like, "Oh, I need to do something." And they had spent a lot of their time doing things like PTA or class mom and volunteering, and which is great. For women who are now in a position where they're say nearing 50 and they want to go back to work, and I think different reasons. I think some women may just need something to occupy their time and stimulate their mind. Some women may really need to go back to work. What is your advice at that stage? Because that's not eight years, that's a lot longer. Hilani Ellis: In order to really kind of set yourself up for personal fulfillment, which could also be labeled as success with entering back into the corporate workforce, whether that's in the private sector or the public sector, retail, Starbucks, those types of opportunities, you kind of need to do a self-assessment. What do I actually like to do? How can I actually speak authentically about something if I were to interview? And sitting and capturing in writing the things that make you feel alive, get fun with it, right? Like get out, colored pencils or crayons from your kid's stash and just kind of do a bit of word-dumping onto paper so that you can really connect with what sets you up, then going to the job boards and recognizing, what roles speak to those many things that you wrote down, kind of drilling down the focus. And the way that we do it today is very different than even three and four years ago. And there's a lot that needs to be captured that is very marketing heavy, which becomes a bit of a crippling experience for those seeking to go back out of where do I begin? And so I actually declare at the beginning of that article, 75% of that messaging and advisement is a professional opinion. And the other 25% is my personal opinion. And then I talk a lot about it in the podcast episode as well. Really sitting down and looking at some of those things that make you, you. You're going to have a more enriching experience when you interview to avoid the potential avenue of discouragement and disappointment when you start to put yourself out there, then you're like, "Well, maybe it's not the right timing." Which could be the case as well, declaring on paper, what it is that you want to do and the why, recognizing that your resume needs to be a story that's told today. And I don't know if maybe you want me to cover this here, because it's important. You guys wonder what to do about the gap when you were home. Absolutely, put it on the resume, go ahead and get very clear [crosstalk 00:19:24]. Doryn Wallach: CEO of the home. Hilani Ellis: Exactly. Budgets, groceries, and I've even offered as a sense of humor because there needs to be personality in the resume, kept three children alive. Doryn Wallach: I love that. That's great. So it's funny, I have a lot of friends or women I know that were in finance or they were lawyers or they did something, they were social workers and it's funny, the ones that were in the very high-powered careers, they either continue that job or they stopped when they had kids and they have zero interest of ever going back to that. And again, there comes the guilt fame because I have a law degree. I have an MBA, I have this, I have that. And I've had the conversation before with friends and said, "Yes, you have that degree. You have that experience. That doesn't mean you have to do that. But that does mean you have some experience doing something that can lead you to a lot of other opportunities." I would imagine using that to your advantage, but I think it's a daunting idea to women to try to even get anywhere near back into what they were doing and most likely, I don't feel like you can, maybe I'm wrong, but if you were in a big law firm and then took off 20 years to have kids, I doubt big law firms hiring you back, but am I wrong about that? Hilani Ellis: It's an interesting thing that you bring up. I'm excited and honored that I've talked to some really amazing, kind of what you just described the profile of, let's say the lawyer and she did take that channel. She came to a fork in the road. I'm having my first child. I might have a second. I've got this wonderful career. I've worked very hard in my education to get to, am I throwing it all away? And that is kind of where in the essence of, maybe it is on the PTA, which can be a very beautiful, fulfilling and highly reinvesting back into your experience. I often think too, if you're at that point, as I was mentioning, kind of trained for the marathon, start calling non-profits and volunteer your time, right? Just kind of get that experience, start building out a new network of people today because the others have maybe gone a completely different freeway in a different direction. There is ownership of us to be able to recognize, where we were. We took a break to raise the next generation. We're ready to come back in and add value. I genuinely believe, especially with the leaders that I've talked to who are my clients and friends, they do have a sense of piqued interest with those reentering because there is a higher level of I'm ready to prove how much I want to work that the energy of coming back to the office is higher than someone who's always been working. So I see that to the advantage of those coming back in, really wanting to sink their teeth into the work. If they're a lawyer, someone who was in finance and is still been watching MSNBC for the last 10 years that they've been at home, they know what's going on with the markets, right? They've stayed relevant. That is really powerful and just kind of staying engaged to what they loved, what their degree was in and their sort of when they thought they were maybe going to work all of their professional years, but they chose to take a break, which is great. I think that being able to speak to your passions allows you the opportunity to be interesting. If you're not interested in something, then you're no longer interesting and it's hard to be able to have a dialogue about it. And so when you can prove... I absolutely love Williams-Sonoma. I've told my husband that when we're retired, we're not really going to be retired because we're going to work at Williams-Sonoma together, same shifts, the whole bit. And I'll be interested in that because of what Williams-Sonoma is about, food, bringing people together, they have on the weekends, the baking and you can smell it halfway through the mall. And there's a sense of excitement when people want to get that new kitchen utensil or that new machine, whether it's an instapot or something else. And just being able to be interested in something, proves to someone that you're interesting and worth the time. Doryn Wallach: That's great. And by the way, if you were doing some high-powered career and you choose to work at a Williams-Sonoma, that is okay too. I think women feel like what will others think of me? But this is the time and this is the point of this podcast. This is the time think about you and what makes you happy and forget what other people feel. I actually have to tell you something that I'm going to admit. And when I was looking for employees for my business, I found myself in my head somewhat discriminating against mothers with younger kids. And being a mother and like knowing, like I never wanted to... I would never say that, but I did think like, "I know what it's like. You've last-minute things or you've got to do pickups, or you have to do stuff at school." And I really needed somebody to be fully committed in there all the time. And that's not to say that that moms of little kids can't do that, but a lot of my questions in interviews were do you have help? What is your backup if you have to work late? Do you have all that? But it crossed my mind and I felt terrible about that. Hilani Ellis: Yeah. And it happens often. And the things that I've been told in confidence from clients on certain criteria there, I think one of your questions too for us to spend time on is ageism and maybe we should do that here, but it's human nature to be out the gate judging. And I tell my assistant, "We are in a business of assessment." And the differentiator between that is judging is, "I can't believe Hilani is wearing that lipstick with that outfit. It's so ugly." That's totally judging. Assessing is, "What does she bring to the table? How did she deliver on that? How is she representing herself? Where's her learning curve?" Really taking a sense of assessment of what are we in front of, much like when you walk through a brand new house you might want to buy and you're like, "Okay, the kitchen might need an update. Oh, everything else is great." The square footage, we're really assessing what's going on and what's in front of us. When we do fall into natural human tendencies, we do what you just did. I try hard to assess, evaluate, and give people chances and figure out what's the right thing. And also have to listen to the clients and some of their crazy criteria. I had a woman tell me once, "Don't let this person come into our home and be fat." It was a very wealthy family. This person was going to be answering their door and dealing with all their vendors on their estate. It was a very high-level role. I said, "I can't guarantee that because we're looking for the quality of the candidate, not their physical appearance." And so it is unfortunate that we're all in a position to have that happen to ourselves and our thinking. And it happens in HR. And it's unfortunate. Doryn Wallach: Well, and I think the point of me bringing that up is that what I learned from that was that I just had to ask the right questions and find the right person, and some people's situations are much more flexible than others. And at the same time, you want to serve the world and you want to help every mom who wants to get out there and stimulate their brain. I actually used to have... I had a Broadway actress work for me, intern for me for a little while. Because she was just like, "Ah, I don't know if I want to do this anymore." Hilani Ellis: There's criteria for a reason, right? There's criteria for a reason. And I have to remind clients often we're hiring the whole person, not just their skills. This isn't a robot that we're programming to do the day-to-day. This is the whole person, we're looking at the whole person, which for you guys listening, who are you? There's a large part of what you're going to be doing in the essence of getting back onto your two professional feet, making declarations to yourself. And we haven't said this word yet. It's one of my favorite words, permission slip, right? Giving yourself the permit. You mentioned this actually in one of your episodes. That's when it stopped me dead in my tracks. I was like, "Oh my God, she's my favorite phrase. I can't wait to talk to her." Permission slips. We are not given permission slips around certain things. And it's a big thing I do a lot on my podcast. And in general conversations when I'm connecting with candidates on a weekly basis. Where was the permission slip for yourself to be okay with that mistake? Where is the permission slip to realize you had to learn more than you thought you did? And that goes a lot with the word, grace. Doryn Wallach: I think you are very, very unique though in your understanding of women. And I think that that's probably what makes you so successful. I don't think everyone is like you. Hilani Ellis: Our disclosure because you just admit it. I'll say it here. I am aware of the fact that I have a very special talent or gift that's come from so many parts of my story that were hardship that gave me a chance to be able to spin it for the grace and goodness of others, specifically women. And that... It gets me a little emotional right now, but to be there for them is a big deal. Doryn Wallach: Oh, that's so great. That's how I feel about doing this podcast. I feel like... Do you just look for executive administrative assistance or do you place other jobs? Hilani Ellis: I believe I can fill a variety of professions. There are some I have no interest in touching whatsoever as it relates to accounting. Accounting makes my skin crawl. That's why I have a bookkeeper and I love her and she loves me because I'm like the most compliant client. But as it relates to my company, Exceptional Admins, yes, I'm specialized in the administrative profession. And if I ever decided to tap out of this to be wider-reaching in supporting businesses with their talent acquisition activity, I have already bought the URL for it. It's called Exceptional Talent. And the abbreviation for that is ET, so. Doryn Wallach: Being an admin is not the same as when we were younger and there were secretaries. It's not the same thing anymore. Hilani Ellis: Absolutely. And I'm so glad you said that. I am on... I met a podium in front of thousands and thousands of professionals constantly advocating for the fact that there is a large gap from where leaders and companies believe this profession sits and where we truly are today. And I'm speaking to that often when I'm talking to a prospective client and he describes the basics. I'm like, "I'd like you to know you're looking for a secretary." "Oh no, no, no, no. I need an executive assistant." I said, "Well, let me tell you what an EA is today." And I go through this whole other bucket of enriching responsibilities, from meeting management, PowerPoint presentations, all these other things. And they're speechless. They're like, "Well, I didn't know an assistant could do that." So I'm on a bigger mission with my company to really educate leaders, HR on what the possibility is, which then essentially opens a brand new channel for these assistants that have a hunger for more, that they aren't able to speak up about. So I have in my signature of my email hashtag admin advocate and I live for that every day. Doryn Wallach: That's awesome. I love it. And looking back at your time at home and then being an employee and now an entrepreneur, again, what advice would you have given yourself during each phase? Hilani Ellis: Oh, I love this question. Taking full ownership. When I think about the beginning of my career, which was 21 years ago and I'll declare this right here, I don't regret 99% of the things of my life. I believe that there's a small bucket of 1% of things I might regret. The things I would have told my younger self at the beginning of my career, and I find myself still doing it today, but not nearly as much is I would listen differently. And I would listen differently because when I get very excited about a topic, I can find myself or way back when interrupting, because I'm ready to speak to the topic. And that in hindsight was just a bad composure, which I don't think I was digging for it, but I'm sure behind my back, it was spoken of kind of, "I can't get [inaudible 00:31:00] with that one." And just listening different, listening longer, having some really established habits, which I'm reading an amazing book by James Clear called atomic habits. It takes 66 consecutive days of doing something new for it to become natural. And that's not a long time considering how long 2020 has made us all feel that we've aged. That's not a long time. And if I would have sort of embraced that a bit more openly, I would have told my very younger career self that. Another thing too is at work, you need to remember work friends do not mean authentic friendships. I overdisclosed often in my younger years, personal things that then were used against me in the workforce. It created an unfortunate friction, which was unnecessary because I was embracing the relationship. So sort of knowing, and the phrase that's out there, routinely is having boundaries. I maybe would have kept myself a little bit more private versus so open. Just think about that one for a hot second. Definitely as I've said a few times here just to reiterate, when you're at home, don't lose yourself. And you're not just a stay-at-home mom, you're who you are and you're who you were way back when, before kids and really staying committed. And I'm not someone that journals a lot, but I can find myself writing notes to myself as you were sort of saying, like the notes around the house. One in particular that I have on my computer screen, it says, "Be quick to listen, slow to speak and be slow to become angry." And I have that up because one of the things I am proud of now many, many years later is I really allowed emotions to drive certain situations. And that in hindsight didn't really get me to a better place. So I've learned that unfortunately through the hard way, but then fortunately recognizing that I've been able to shed that habit, I actually became... I'm not a fan of which was my own habit. And then kind of to the point of the motherhood is quality time over quantity is okay to preview or review or assess or look at your situation of... I hear often from the working moms that I work with and the sentence is going to hit home. I don't spend enough time with my kids. And the word enough can actually be bad. So, going on a vacation with your partner and getting away from your kids is great and that's fills you up. So think about those little micro-moments and here's the permission slip to spend time alone with yourself, which sometimes we're uncomfortable doing. I've embraced that now many years later. So I would definitely say that to my younger self, that when I was sitting and getting my nails done while I was a stay-at-home mom, we lived on a budget and I felt guilty about that. That I maybe would have just said, "Don't feel too guilty, recognize that it is okay. And then you'll be back home in a little bit in the part of the fold again." Doryn Wallach: Oh God, I couldn't agree with you more on every single one of those things that you're just said. Hilani Ellis: Oh, thanks. Doryn Wallach: I feel the exact same way- Hilani Ellis: Same way. And I know you're not alone, right? Yeah. Doryn Wallach: ... Yeah. I know it's so true. And I'm sure that many women that are going to listen to this are going to just really feel that and understand that wherever they are in those phases of life. This was so wonderful- Hilani Ellis: Oh, thank you. I [crosstalk 00:34:25] that we made it work. Doryn Wallach: ... I know and now you are an excellent guest. I'd love to have you back again. Actually liked the idea of the resume. Hilani Ellis: [crosstalk 00:34:35]. Doryn Wallach: That would be interesting because yeah, there was a time I wanted to start a different part of my business and my husband was not happy about us putting personal money towards the business. So I was like, "What kind of job can I get along with my full-time job and my business?" And I went to go look at jobs online and they asked to submit a resume and I was like, "Huh, I don't even... What am I going to say?" That is a great topic. So I would love you to come back if you were open and willing. Hilani Ellis: Be honored to come back because there were actually some things I was thinking as we were spending this time together. I think kind of a role-play experience with you on like what our traditional interview questions today that people are asking? What's the more creative way to stand out? And it does start with that piece of paper, which is the resume. And so for the resources I have on my website, regardless if I'm unique to administrative roles, which are good roles to sort of kind of reenter the workforce in, even if it's part-time, I would say, look at my website, there is a general tone to the inspiration, advisement that I give that is applicable to any sort of journey. There's people who were in PR and they would definitely benefit from the advisement I have on the website. And I've got a section that is both career development and role development under the EA University tab. And there's a wealth of information that is easy to digest versus feeling overwhelmed, that will give you the energy of like, "I can totally get this going." And I'm going to say one final thing here. Do not say I want to have a job by three months from now. Give yourself a little bit more of a casual mindset around it because time and time again, "Oh my gosh, Hilani, I totally would've thought I'd have a job by now and I don't and I can't get past the first round and this just sucks." And I'm like, "I hear you and I want to give you some help to know that you're not alone, but then unfortunately you're not alone. Others are doing the same thing and listen, we have lofty goals for ourself." Right? I said I'm type A, so I make goals. Doryn Wallach: Yeah, me too. Hilani Ellis: I make goals, then we know that about ourselves and there's a sense of control with that that helps us have assurance. So if you put a timeline on it, I would say this instead, within three months, you want to be so solid in what your goals are. You want to be so proud of that resume. You're showing it to your husband or your wife. And you're looking at it wondering what can I do now? Now you can apply. Now you can look out. I often say too, volunteer first, kind of get that office, physical presence going and interaction and conversation. But yeah, I would absolutely be honored to come back and speak to those things so your listeners can get some concrete inspiration. Doryn Wallach: Yeah, no, I love this topic is so great. And tell everyone again where they can find you. Hilani Ellis: Yeah. Thank you. So the company is called Exceptional Admins and the website is exceptionaladmins.com. There's a wealth of information. It's pretty easy to get through. There's testimonies if you kind of want to see what the experience has been for assistants, which can also light you up on what the future looks like in finding employment. I also have a podcast which can be found on Spotify, Apple, and Google Play, which is also covered under the title, Exceptional Admins. I'm on LinkedIn if you want to kind of start, which by the way, we didn't talk about this. We could in the next episode, but you've got to start having a presence there and you've got to start telling your story in digital. It is the absolute backup. Just like when you apply, they're going to want to look for you there and they want to know how serious you are about employment. And they do, excuse the word, judge, are you there or not? So you definitely want that. Doryn Wallach: I'm going to have to talk to you about updating my LinkedIn because- Hilani Ellis: Yeah, that'd be fun. We can talk about that. Doryn Wallach: Yeah, just on the side. I don't really know what I'm doing over there. Hilani Ellis: Yeah. But you can find me in all those areas and if you join in and listen, I love to hear back from people. My email address is also on the website, so send me an email. Doryn Wallach: Great. Great. Thank you so much, so much- Hilani Ellis: Thank you. Very excited. Doryn Wallach: ... This was wonderful. And we will have you back again. I don't know who we is. I will have you back. I know, there is always a we with me, but it's really just me doing everything. Hilani Ellis: Yeah. Well, I'm honored I was here. This was a wonderful conversation and I hope the guests and listeners took a lot away. Doryn Wallach: Great. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening. Remember to give yourself permission and know that you are not alone. Don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any episodes. Reviews are always appreciated and you can reach me by email at it'snotacrisis@gmail, Instagram, @ItsNotACrisisPodcast. And please join our Facebook group as well. Until next time, just remember, remember: It's NOT a crisis!

EPISODE 17 It is my honor to have Dr. Lee Cohen on for this episode. He is an expert in this field that has so many unknowns. Plus, he has been of huge help to me in understanding the struggles that I’ve shared in previous episodes, which some of you are also experiencing. We talk everything Perimenopause, PMDD, Menopause and much more. If you like this episode, please be sure to spread it around because I know it will bring relief to other women. Dr. Lee Cohen is director of the Center for Women's Mental Health at Massachusetts General Hospital (MGH) and the first incumbent of the Edmund and Carroll Carpenter Chair in Psychiatry in Women's Mental Health at Harvard Medical School. He is a national and international leader in the field of women's mental health and was among the founders of the field of perinatal and reproductive psychiatry. His work spans research, teaching, and clinical care in the treatment of mood and anxiety disorders as well as women's reproductive psychiatric disorders. Don’t forget to follow us on @ItsNotACrisisPodcast on both Instagram and Facebook for more content and even drop us a DM to say hi. And remember: It’s not a crisis! EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Doryn Wallach: Welcome to It's Not A Crisis. I'm your host, Doryn Wallach. I'm an entrepreneur, a mother of two, a wife, an a 40 something trying to figure out what is happening in this decade? Why is no one talking about it? I created this podcast to help women in their late 30s and 40s to figure out what is going on in our mind, body, soul and life. We may laugh, we may cry, we may get frustrated, but most importantly my goal is to make this next chapter of life positive. I'm also full of my own questions and I'm here to go on this journey with you. So, let's do it together. Hi everyone, welcome to another episode. I am so excited about my guest today, and I know I say that about everybody because I actually am. I wouldn't have them on the show if I wasn't excited, but I'm actually very, very honored to have today's guest, who is Dr. Lee Cohen. I've talked about Dr. Cohen in my podcast on my own journey with PMDD and peri-menopause and I've been working with Dr. Cohen since the summer virtually. I've seen so many doctors over the years and just completely lost hope that anybody was able to help me. And, Dr. Cohen is not only genuine, kind and patient, but he is brilliant, knowledgeable and he just gets it. And I mentioned this in the show, but there have been so many times where I said, "Please don't give up on me. Please don't give up on me. I know I sound like a lost cause." And he always reassures me that we're just getting started, and those words alone have given me so much hope. So, I did a whole podcast on this about my own journey, so I won't get into myself that much in this podcast. But, I do have some knowledge and have tried a bunch of things, and one of the things that I pushed back on mostly my entire life was SSRI's because every time I've tried them I felt worse. So, I've been very against them. I've gone down every other route, from holistic to acupuncture, diet, Chinese herbs, medical marijuana, blah, blah, blah. On and on. When I started with Dr. Cohen, he knew how sensitive I was to medication and started me on a very tiny dose of Prozac this summer, which after a bit I really felt it helped me. Now, I don't know that it has the same effect that it did immediately. But, I trust with my own patience that we're going to sort this together. I actually also just started Seasonal, which is a three month birth control pill to element my period. So, we'll see how that goes because I haven't responded well in the past to birth control. But I'm open to anything. The difference this time of starting this birth control is last time I went on it I sunk into this terrible depression. And when I called my GYN, or my internist, crying, literally saying, "Help, what do I do?" They weren't very sensitive to it. They said, "Ah, don't know what to tell you. You've got to give your body time. You've got to get used to it." So, I think it's important that I know have a psychiatrist behind me as I'm going through this process who understands women's health and women's psychiatry. I also just wanted to mention quickly that I've mentioned this before. I started a Patreon page, and I'm sure you're like, "What's Patreon?" But, it's a very inexpensive way to get some extra content. The tiers are five, 10 and 20 I think. But one of the things I really want to get going is I want to do a crowd cast with six women, which is my maximum, where we can talk about current issues together. And, maybe have a drink while we're doing it. That will be a part of one of the tiers of Patreon, and you can find that on my website or in my profile on Instagram. But also, I will be announcing soon that I'm going to be doing some groups. It'll be a small fee to join the group, but I think that it would be really, really helpful for many women. So, please look out for that. And like I say, please, if you like the podcast will you please go rate it and make sure you're subscribed. But rate it and also, leave a review because the reviews are really what help other people to find the podcast and the rating. So, I would be forever grateful to you if you could just take five minutes out of your time and do that for me. Dr. Cohen is the Director of The Center for Women's Mental Health, and Associate Chief of Psychiatry for Philanthropy and Department Communications at Mass General Hospital. He's also the Edmond and Caroled Carpenter Professor of Psychiatry at Harvard Medical School. He completed his residency training and fellowship at Mass General Hospital. He's a national and international leader in the field of women's mental health. And was among the founders of the field of peri-natal and reproductive psychiatry. His work spans the domains of research, teaching and clinical care in the area of treatment of mood and anxiety disorders, with a sub-specialty interest in psychiatric disorders associated with female reproductive function. These include psychiatric disorders during pregnancy and the post partum period, depression in mid life women and issues related to infertility and mental health. The research which he conducts and oversees has helped to inform the care of patients who suffer from psychiatric illness. Dr. Cohen, welcome to the show. Dr. Lee Cohen: Hey Doryn. It's really a pleasure to be here. I really am grateful that you invited me. Doryn Wallach: I am so honored that you're taking the time to be here today. I've been plugging you and talking about you since I posted my episode talking about my hormonal journey. And the reason I wanted to have you come on here is I just feel like women our age are not talking to each other about this time in our lives. And neither are their doctors, and it's just crazy to me how many women I know that just don't understand what's happening to their bodies in their 40s. So, I'm hoping with your help we can give a little information to give women some hope, and help them through these challenges. Dr. Lee Cohen: Well, we'll give it a try. Doryn Wallach: We'll give it a try. So, you're the first doctor that did not look at me like I couldn't be helped. I swear from integrative health doctors, to psychiatrist, to women's reproductive hormonal specialist, I've been to everybody. And I'll never forget that the first time I told you my story you shook your head up and down with complete understanding. It made me feel so at ease. I don't typically have men on the show, but I'm making an exception today. And I'm sure I'll make other exceptions, but we're still working together. We're not quite there with a solution, but every time I've had a fear of you giving up on me, you have reassured me that we're just getting started. And I can't explain to you how much those words mean to me, and I think a lot of women can understand that because I think there are a lot of moments of feeling really hopeless. Also, just feeling that nobody understands what we're really going through. And as a man, I'm very curious what drove you to this specialty? Dr. Lee Cohen: So, I became interested in reproductive psychiatry, frankly, going back over 25 years. And, my original work and then our group's work at the Mass General and Center for Women's Mental Health in this area really derived from our interest in younger women originally who were either trying to get pregnant, or who were pregnant, or who were post partum. And we were interested in how to safely help those women navigate through. For example, they had to take medications during pregnancy or the post partum period. And we've been up and running for over 25 years, and we continue to follow women across that interval of time. And started to then see women who are mid life, who were experiencing a whole range of issues from mood issues, to sleep disorders, to anxiety problems. And we got very interested in the experience of mid life women, but it was really from the cornerstone of our work, in terms of taking care of mood disorders in women across the lifespan. Doryn Wallach: What specifically though drove you to have interest in this when you were starting out? Was there anything that when you were in school that you found overly fascinating about it? Or did you kind of just fall into it? Dr. Lee Cohen: People ask all the time, how did you get into this area? I didn't one day just wake up and say, "I'm going to study women's mood disorders." But I trained at a very interesting time in psychiatry where we actually learned that mood disorders and anxiety disorders actually in men and women are recurrent, chronic problems. They tend to wax and wean over the life time. So, I became interested then in how would we manage women, for example, during such a critical time such as pregnancy or the post partum period, where there are very special considerations. For example, using medicines during pregnancy, or medicines when women are breastfeeding. But I think after that initial work in pregnancy and the post partum period, which we continue to this day, I became interested in mid life women. And you asked me before sort of how I got particularly interested in this. I noticed that to take care of mid life women one really had to focus, not on a single symptom, but really on the array of symptoms and issues that mid life women were facing so that you could go see a gynecologist and get treatment for hot flashes. And you could go see your PCP for problems with insomnia. But really integrating the picture and looking at symptoms such as hot flashes, whether that was night sweats or hot flashes during the day, as well as mood symptoms, anxiety symptoms, insomnia. One really had to treat all of those symptoms to improve quality of life in women. Doryn Wallach: That's wonderful to hear you say that, because that is, in my opinion and I think in a lot of other women's opinion, the medical field is lacking education on women's hormonal mental health. And I don't know why that is, but you obviously being a researcher, maybe you can tell me a little bit about why and what is being done about that? Dr. Lee Cohen: I'm reminded of some of the earlier work that was done in post partum depression, which is a time of tremendous reproductive hormonal change. And everybody was sort of looking for what was the hormonal problem? And it turned out that 30 years later, still we don't have that answer, and it doesn't seem to be just about hormones. And I think that the focus on hormones in mid life women has some relevance, because again, during the transition to menopause as an example, it's a time of great hormonal flux. But, I think what we know is that distress in mid life women deriving from a number of areas is not just about too much or too little hormones. Doryn Wallach: I experienced post partum depression and that was 13 years ago, and I can't even begin, and I've told this story on my podcast before, but I can't even begin to tell you how uneducated at that time. It wasn't that long ago, that doctors kind of looked at me like, "I don't know what's wrong with you. It's so bizarre." So, I'm glad that there have been advances. I actually, I don't know if I ever told you this, but prior to the pandemic I was volunteering at the Motherhood Center in New York. I don't know if you're aware of that, but it's a beautiful, beautiful center that hosts women who are post partum, going through post partum depression. And it's a day program, an in-patient day program. They bring their babies, and the babies go the nursery. And they have all sorts of therapy. I worked in the nursery with the babies, which was so nice. But I also did it because I suffered so much that I just wanted to give back to this place that's finally really understanding women. I wish, at some point when I have more time, I actually want to do more for them. Dr. Lee Cohen: I think it would be terrific. I'm actually on the Scientific Advisory Board to the Motherhood Center, and I've known Katherine Landor for probably 25 years, more years than we want to admit. I think that in America we have sort of fallen short when it comes to taking care of women suffering from post partum depression. It's still the most common complication in modern obstetrics. And in other parts of the world, developed and less developed, frankly post partum women are treated in a different way and there's a greater attention to some of the issues that go on for post partum women, including those who are suffering from post partum depression. And it's interesting that you sort of bring up post partum depression, and then I will sort of relate it to depression that we see in women who are transitioning to menopause because there's a literature that shows that vulnerability to mood disorder during particular reproductive life events, like being post partum, or transitioning to menopause, it's not coincidental that there may be women who are particularly vulnerable to depression during periods of reproductive hormonal change. Now, does that mean that reproductive hormonal change causes that problem with mood necessarily at that time? No, but it suggest that it's at least a more critical piece for those women than for, say, other women who do not experience depression at those particular times. Doryn Wallach: What I really want to talk about today is peri-menopause because that's my audience and I think that's really what they're experiencing and heading into menopause. There is a large group of women who struggle with PMDD, which is premenstrual disorder. And I'd love you to touch just briefly on what causes PMDD? And the other part of it is, why do some women get relief from SSRI's and some don't? Some get relief from birth control and some have terrible responses to birth control? And what are other options for this? Dr. Lee Cohen: It's a great question, and we could actually spend a whole podcast [crosstalk 00:14:17]- Doryn Wallach: I know. I know. Dr. Lee Cohen: Multiple podcasts just talking about PMS and premenstrual dysphoric disorder. But just so that listeners are aware, there's a clear distinction between PMS and premenstrual dysphoric disorder, or the term PMDD, because 70 to 80% of women in the general population have sort of mild symptoms of so called PMS. And it could be some reactivity of mood, some physical symptoms and that is not pathologic. But there are women who, during the latter phase of the menstrual cycle, experience symptoms of either mood issues, or anxiety, the ability of mood up and down, reactivity of mood, physical symptoms that really gets in the way of their functioning affectively. And that's when the FDA sort of brought into light this diagnostic category that we're talking about, which is premenstrual dysphoric disorder. So, what's really going on in the brain in women who have such extraordinary sensitivity during that period of time? I'd have to confess to not knowing absolutely. We know that there are some women who have just particular sensitivity to changes in the reproductive hormonal environment, and we know that those hormones do have an effect on the brain and also on experiences such as mood and anxiety. And it was demonstrated back in the 90s that the antidepressants, the SSRI's, drugs like Prozac, Zoloft, Paxel, that those drugs dramatically diminish symptoms in women who are suffering from premenstrual dysphoric disorder. And we also showed that PMDD was different than depression that we were treating with those same medicines, because we now know that if women really had symptoms that were limited to the latter phase of the menstrual cycle that you could actually use those same SSRI's just for half the cycle. And that's not how you would treat depression, but there was something about using those medicines just when women premenstrualed that helped them. So, it's been a very exciting area of research and you mention, Doryn, about the use of oral contraceptive, there's a literature and several oral contraceptives have actually FDA approval for treatment of PMDD. And it looks as if, to sort of use lay terms, smoothing out the hormonal environment with oral contraceptives is effective for some women who are suffering from severe PMS symptoms. And so, I wish we had a greater evidence base about some other interventions for PMDD, certain herbal interventions, and those data are pretty lacking actually. Doryn Wallach: Yeah, I could be an example of that. So, what I find difficult about the oral contraceptives is that there is a time period that your body needs to get used to it. So, I think a lot of women try that route and then, they give up because they can't deal with sort of the adjustment period on that. By the way, and totally open book here because I've talked about this before, I just started, as you know, Seasonal, a continuous pill to kind of get rid of my period. But I know that in the past when I've taken birth control some have worked and some have made me feel more miserable. So, I think that women have to understand that you sort of have to suffer through it. I think though that having a psychiatrist behind you while you're doing that is really important. Would you agree with that? Dr. Lee Cohen: I would, and we did a study. We published it literally 25 years ago, when we were recruiting for a clinical trial in PMDD. And we put on the buses in Boston a placard, you know like, "Do you have PMS? Call this number." And then, we did a study of what those women actually had. I think this is such a critical point. We had research assistants manning those phones, and screening those women for a potential position in a clinical trial. And what we found was that about two thirds of women, maybe even a little bit more of women with the chief complaint of PMS or women who thought they had PMDD actually had an underlying mood or anxiety disorder. And that's a critical point. So, what they were really calling about was worsening of those disorders when they were premenstrual. And the reason that that's so important is that we have definitive treatments for mood disorder, and they may actually get worse premenstrual, but we really want to treat the underlying illness. So, from a public health point of view, if women have severe PMS they really need to be screened for do they have sort of an underlying anxiety disorder or mood disorder that needs to be treated? Doryn Wallach: I read recently that specifically women who've experienced trauma are more likely to experience PMDD. Is that true? And what's the relation to that? Dr. Lee Cohen: The trauma literature is just getting larger and larger in terms of sort of making these links between trauma history, and risk for various conditions. So, yes, there's a literature that shows this association between history of trauma and risk for PMDD. But you know Doryn, we also see that with post partum depression. We also see that in depression in general in women, so that trauma history predicts risk for later psychiatric disorder, including PMDD as you mentioned. Doryn Wallach: And I would imagine a lot of people are just born with psychiatric disorders as well. It's not necessarily one instance that causes that to happen. Dr. Lee Cohen: That's correct, and you make such a critical point, which is sort of what unmasks psychiatric disorder? So there may be a series of issues, or series of factors that increase your risks. But some people will go on to have that disorder, and some people in a way are more resilient. And when I say that, I mean some people, by nature of their genetics or other factors, seem to sort of weather adversity in a different way. Doryn Wallach: So, I hear from women all the time, my friends, or actually my listeners, they don't sleep. They have night sweats. Their periods aren't normal. They have hot flashes. Their anxiety and rage, I hear a lot about rage, is just through the roof. And then, they go see their doctors and their doctors check their hormones and they tell them they're fine. And they send them on their way, and it leaves another woman feeling... I think historically, I can remember my dad as a kid being like, "Oh," to my mom, "Do you have your period?" Or, men kind of thinking we were making it up. That all these things are just an excuse to be in a bad mood. Can you explain why doctors are possibly not as educated as they should be with peri-menopause or for women of this age? And I just don't understand why it is, and I've experienced it myself too. Dr. Lee Cohen: Well, I think you raise sort of several different points. The first is if you go into a rushed medical practice and is there a blood test that sort of makes the diagnosis of peri-menopause or a woman who's frankly menopausal? It's actually easier to make the diagnosis of menopause. Women who don't have a menstrual period for a year, by definition, are menopausal. But what you talk about is sort of, perhaps younger women, they go to see their PCP or their gynecologist and some blood work is done. And someone is sort of told whether they are or are not menopausal. There isn't a single really blood test that indicates that women are in peri-menopause and this transition period, because what we actually know is that those reproductive hormonal values can very gravely, across the years, around this menopausal transition. So, it's not as if a 45 year old woman goes into the office and maybe having some irregular cycles, and some basso-motor symptoms. There's not sort of a value that's going to be on a blood test that's going to absolutely sort of make the diagnosis. In fact, if you ask me, what is the hallmark? What's the most sensitive hallmark of the transition to the menopause in the GYN domain, it sort of changes in menstrual function. When women start getting either shorter cycles or changes in the intensity and flow, that's sort of a more sensitive marker than just a blood value of a particular hormone level. Doryn Wallach: Right. And women are so, I'm sure as you know, women are so in tune to their bodies. I feel like when a woman says, "Something's not right, or I just feel off." They really know. Not saying that men don't, but I just think that women are a lot more in tune. And I think that's probably the most frustrating thing because women will go to a doctor and say, "No, no, no. This is not normal for me." Dr. Lee Cohen: So, Doryn, I think that is so critical, which is that women who are tuned in to what's going on with respect to having physical symptoms, emotional symptoms, and then get a sense of disequilibrium. Something is off. And I think one of the things that we... you asked me before, how is it that we got interested in this area? We got interested in this area because typically it wasn't just one thing that was off. When we would sit with women transitional to mid life, we would note that they would come in and they would have sleep problems. And they would be more anxious. They would say, "I wasn't really an anxious person. I'm feeling more up tight now." And they would have night sweats, or hot flashes during the day. And they said that their mood was more reactive. A woman would tell me, you know, "I just feel more irritable. I'm snappy" is a word that would come up. So, it was really that amalcolm, that sort of group of symptoms that women would come in and say, "I'm off my game." And we really found that one had to sort of take the time and unpack that grouping of symptoms to really understanding what was going on for these patients. Doryn Wallach: How do you know... How does a woman know if they're going through peri-menopause or if it's menopause? What are they supposed to look for? Dr. Lee Cohen: So, again, I think the hallmark of the transition is changes in menstrual functions. You know there are women, and we have a classic story, Doryn, is women who come in and have had the most predictable cycles for many, many years. And then, start to report changes in cycle length or the quality of menstrual flow. That's a very reliable marker that something is shifting on the reproductive hormonal axis. And then, start layering in symptoms. Probably the most common symptoms associated with this transition, which again that's why I sort of gave pauses to the vignette that you gave about the woman who goes to see her doctor, because we're talking about a transition that could take, actually for most patients, several years. If you look at the data, the transition to menopause is frequently two to three years. And then, a woman starts talking about, "Doctor, not only am I having issues around... do I notice a difference in cycling but I also note that I'm waking up in the middle of the night and I'm very warm. Or I'm having a night sweat, or I was in a meeting and I had a flush." So, those are patients who are, in likelihood, transitioning to menopause. As I said before, menopause is sort of the easiest definition. It's a year with the absence of a menstrual period. Doryn Wallach: I noticed a difference in my cycle probably... I'm 43 now. It was like 41. All of a sudden, I was saying to my doctor, "Not that it's not abnormal, but it's different. It's very heavy for two days and then it's gone." Things changed, it was almost overnight. But then with every cycle it just feels like it gets worse. I've heard a lot of my friends say that too. It's funny how many of my friends are just like, "Oh yeah, that's happening to me too." But they're just not paying attention to it. Dr. Lee Cohen: I think the point that you raise is a very important one, which is that lots of women will come in and there's just tremendous data on that, where they'll have several cycles where the quality of menstrual functions sort of changes and then, they're sort of back in the group, and it may just be sort of whatever it was historically for a whole bunch of months. And then, we see some changes over the next few months or so, and so that variability is more the main than the exception. Doryn Wallach: Can you tell me as a researcher what you're currently doing for this population of women and how you're helping to educate others in the medical field? If you can also mention what you found treatment wise that I know there's a lot. I know every woman is different, and every treatment is different, but I'd love to hear a little bit more about that. Dr. Lee Cohen: I think that frankly, the fact that we're doing this podcast is so important and the fact that there are resources available to women that I don't think were typically available even as recently as 10 years ago. That's a little problematic because we do know that about half of what's on the internet in the medical space, that where people were sort of blogging or whatever, half of that is frequently pretty flawed in terms of its accuracy. So, I think the question in a way you'd probably be asking me is well, how do women get access to good information? And so, it's been very impressive to see some of the patient guides that have come out of society, like The North American Menopause Society where they realized that for women to make very private individualized decisions they need to have good information. And so, I'm up beat about the growing number of resources that women have with good, and frankly improving, information that can help them make the decisions that they want to make, whether it's are they going to go and pursue hormonal treatment as one possibility? Are they going to pursue other treatments, for example, for hot flashes? 70 to 80% of women who transition to the menopause experience some form of basso-motor symptoms. So, I think there are a lot of treatments, and we can go through those if you'd like, for these various symptoms. But your first question was sort of where do we then go? And I think that they have more resources today than they had 10 years ago. Doryn Wallach: I actually want to go back to that in a minute. If you could talk about the treatments that are being used for different symptoms of peri-menopause. Dr. Lee Cohen: So, let me first start with mood, because really, that's the first question that you asked me, which was sort of how did you get interested in reproductive psychiatry and psychiatry across the life cycle of women, including during the transition to the menopause. And that was because my interest in mood. We published, and others have published going back 10 years or so, that aside from the increase in depressive symptoms, and that's been well known that as women transition to the menopause there's an increase in depressive symptoms. Now, that doesn't mean that you treat those women with antidepressants. They don't necessarily meet criteria for major depression. But we also went on to show that the peri-menopause, the transition to menopause was a period of increase risk for having an episode. Your first episode of major depression. So, when I think about depression during the transition, we need to effectively treat that whether it's with an evidence based psycho therapy, such as cognitive behavioral therapy for depression. Or antidepressants, and we find that given a range of options, some women will pursue not pharmacological treatment of depression. Some women will want to pursue treatment with antidepressants. But I think it's important because untreated depression is associated with significant morbidity and frankly, loss of quality of life. And so, that's sort of in my mind one of the first things we think about. Then, there are other symptoms. There are multiple treatments for basso-motor symptoms and it's clear that in women transitioning, the experience of basso-motor symptoms is more or less bothersome. And for women for whom it's not bothersome, then they may not pursue any particular treatment. But for other women, it really does get in the way of functioning and there's from hormonal to non-hormonal, to various medicines that can be used to treat hot flashes. We did do, I think, one of the only controlled studies of a non pharmacological intervention, such as Omega-3, which we found it was no better than placebo. And one of the things that concerns me is that the transition to menopause and treating menopausal women has become such an industry that people can make claims about ethicacy of this herbal or that without really very good data. And there have been federally funded studies that have shown that, for example, the soy analogs were really not helpful compared to placebo. We showed it with Omega-3. We showed that the SSRI, [inaudible 00:31:20], which is marketed as Lexapro was effective. So, in a way, I think that women need to know, and it goes back, Doryn, to your question about so where do women get information? I think women need to know where the evidence shows about what has worked and what has not worked. Doryn Wallach: There's unfortunately, especially nowadays with social media and everything that's accessible to us, and it's just such a flood of information, for everything that you'll look at, there's always that one social media account that will pop up. Or there's that one article that's going to pop up that's going to say, "Be against any type of SSRI's, and against hormonal treatment. And no, you can do it this, and you can do with this diet, blah, blah, blah." And it makes you feel guilty. It makes you feel like a failure when you eventually give in to trying antidepressants. And we shouldn't have to feel that way. But I think you're right, I think people are monetizing on this in a way that yes, maybe for some people it does work. But I'm a product of anything that has ever been developed, I've tried. There's nothing anyone can tell me to try because I fought going on medication for a very long time, until really talking to you. Dr. Lee Cohen: Actually I think you raise sort of two really critical points, which is where do women get good information? We established over 15 years ago womensmentalhealth.org. We did that with funds from a grateful patient through philanthropy. And our goal was to give women suffering from mood disorders around reproductive life events, whether it was pregnancy or transition to menopause, the best information. And we have our editor and chief curates the available information on the internet so that, at least from our point of view, women at least know sort of where there's good evidence of ethicacy of this particular intervention or that particular intervention. Because one of the things I really feel badly about is that I think the average person, it's a challenge to be navigating the vast amount of information. And you're right, Doryn, you can pop onto this Facebook group or this Tweet, and it's hard to know what to believe. And, going to your first comment, it's sometimes hard to have enough time in the context of a typical exchange with your primary care physician during that visit to really have an ample discussion about how to proceed, about managing symptoms that we know are getting in the way of quality of life. And talk to you about mood disorder, we talked about basso-motor symptoms. We didn't talk about insomnia, which is a huge issue in this group of patients. Doryn Wallach: Insomnia is probably the number one. I mean, not to mention that women in general go to bed with their heads ruminating and just thinking. And I think that that's normal, but I do think that for me, my sleep has gotten much worse and become much more of a problem. But it's funny what you just mentioned, the first time I ever experienced depression and severe anxiety was when I got my first period. And I can remember sitting in my bedroom feeling like I wanted to die. I didn't know why, and then that went away at some point. And at some point my periods were so bad that I went on birth control and then I was okay. Then, the second time I ever noticed that, which I had more severe anxiety and depression but the anxiety was worse, was after I had my daughter. So, what you're saying obviously makes a lot of sense, but prior, not that I can remember, but prior to 12, 13 years old, I don't remember feeling anything like that. So, you just triggered that in my head. Dr. Lee Cohen: Yeah, but you know Doryn, I think that the point that you raise as we chat a little bit, it's fascinating because so much is written about premenstrual dysphoric disorder, and you made reference to feelings that you had around your first period. And then, post partum depression and then, we were talking about the transition to menopause. I will tell you that the area that has been incompletely evaluated has been premenstrual anxiety, post partum anxiety. Actually, our original work was not in post partum depression, it was actually in post partum anxiety. And then, I think the area that's not been adequately addressed in the research domain has been anxiety as women transition to the menopause. And what we actually find is that depression and anxiety so co-mingle, they're so intertwined that you really have to treat both. So you talk about sort of the ruminative tendency that you sometimes see in women at this age of life that you're describing, and treatment of anxiety has really become advanced in terms of whether you're talking about pharmacological interventions or non-pharmacological interventions. I think the theme that is sort of getting driven home during this conversation is that it's not like you just go into a doctor's office with just a single problem and get a blood test and a prescription and go home. I think that this whole transition to this stage of life for patients really involves sort of a 360 degree evaluation of how that patient is functioning. And also, in other domains that we haven't talked about, in the wellness domain. The nutrition, exercise. So, I think that navigating this whole space really does require, and you and I have talked about this, a multi pronged approach to sort of optimize wellness and to modulate or to treat symptoms that are really getting most in the way for these patients. Doryn Wallach: Yes. Absolutely. So, we started working together this spring/summer. And your patience is incredible, but I think that Dr. Cohen is the first doctor who's ever actually patiently spent time trying and sorting and figuring it out and reassuring me that we're not going to do this immediately, but we will get to some sort of solution where you're comfortable. And I think that alone is something that women need to hear. I mean, you wouldn't believe how something that simple can help women to have hope. So, I thank you for that. More doctors should be like you. Dr. Lee Cohen: Well, you're very kind, but to the point that you were sort of saying those kind words, two things came to mind which is that when patients come here during such a powerful transition, such an important transition in their lives, those issues may not come in to line or get alleviated overnight. And, I think partnering with patients for a road to getting better, a road to wellness, is really important. I think that, Doryn, I just have to share sort of something that at this stage in my career I think about a lot, which is that over the years I've actually in the scope of my clinical practice, which I take care of men and women as a pharmacologist and being in a referral center such as the MGH, we see some very ill patients who have seen many, many other physicians. And I don't think there's necessarily something magical that I offer them or my colleagues offer them. But I think that you can offer patients hope for improving their wellbeing. And if not a cure, and if not total remission, which is always our goal, instead you're going to sort of sign on and partner with them to get them better. And I hope that that's sort of what you were referring to because I really view it as such an important component of taking care of patients, whether they're sort of young or in mid life, or in geriatric patients. I think that partnering with them and giving them hope that you're going to sort of stay board is very important. Doryn Wallach: Every time I go into my session with you, which we've never met in person. We've been virtual because it started in the pandemic, but every time we go into session I'm feeling extraordinarily hopeless. And when I come out of it, I'm always in a much better mood. And there's something really to be said, and I've seen many psychiatrists over the years who I've seen once or twice and been like, "No, they don't get it. They're not helping me. Whatever." So, yes, that is what I meant. So, keep doing that please, because more doctors should do that. The other thing I wanted to ask is just to go back, you had mentioned other resources and other things to compliment medication if that's the direction you're going in. Is there a suggestion to women for a team to have set up? Whether that's you have your psychiatrist, gynecologist, you get a nutritionist. What other things should women be doing and who should they have behind them so that they're all communicating together? Dr. Lee Cohen: I think it really depends on the symptoms and the difficulties that patients are experiencing. I will say I think you sort of bring this issue with your question, which is how do you coordinate care when there may be a primary care physician and a gynecologist, and maybe even a psychiatrist involved or a therapist? How do those people communicate? And I will say that that's one of the, in the way modern medicine is structured, it's been a great challenge. One thing that we really have learned during the pandemic is the value of telemedicine, and our ability, which I think will get better and better, to communicate with our colleagues in a fluid way so that we can, frankly, function as a team. We talk about team science all the time. I have colleagues who do interdisciplinary work on the science part of my life. We do that, that's standard care. But, ironically we don't do that in clinical practices easily because it's tough to get in touch with people. But I think that when we talk about the array of difficulties in mid life women it's important for... it's so intuitive. It's important for folks to be talking to each other, and that doesn't really happen. So, when I work with a team, it could be a reproductive endocrinologist, it could be a gynecologist, a therapist referring colleague, a psychiatrist; it's really important that those folks be on the same page in terms of what our goals our. And also, in terms of what we're prescribing or what we are suggesting as helpful because nothing can be more upsetting to patients than getting different takes from different clinicians who they see because then what do they do? How do they navigate that? Doryn Wallach: Yeah, that is the most frustrating. I developed at some point after my daughter, hashimoto disease and so then, that became another whole thing that factors into it, and you're getting one opinion that it's your thyroid and blah, blah, blah. So, I know many other women also have developed this after pregnancy. Let me ask you one, I have one final important question for you, unless there's something else that you want to touch on also. We'd love to hear it. And I also have a question from one of my listeners for you. But for someone who can't afford a psychiatrist like you, with your incredible background, what are the options or what is being done for other women? How can they get the same kind of care from their health care professionals, and how do we change this? Because obviously I don't want to get into a political discussion about health care, but the resources to women who have means or have better health insurance are being able to get this care. So, what is being done for this right now? Dr. Lee Cohen: I think that what we're seeing in psychiatry as an example is we're trying to work with our colleagues in OBGYN and in primary care to sort of bring them up to speed in the domains of clinical care that we offer. So, if it's the same as if you came to see a psychiatrist or maybe some, or a sub-specialist, I don't really know. But I think the answer to your question is we are trying to raise the bar as we work and teach colleagues who are generalists, and those could be our colleagues in primary care, nurse prescribers, nurse practitioners, to sort of be talking more, teaching more about this growing number of mid life women, just the subject of our talk this morning, so that they are empowered to more effectively treat the array of symptoms that we've been talking about. Because I think to your point, Doryn, which is that people are not going to necessarily navigate. They may not have the means to, and also their resources may not be available where they live. So, I want, and I think again this is where technology can really help. I want the same resources to be available in Casper, Wyoming as they are in the West Village of New York City. So, I think that information dissemination is really the key, and that clinicians in the community have access to those resources. And that's certainly what we're trying to do sort of in our center at MGH is to work with both advocacy groups, and with our colleagues in the community, to see that they have in a way the most up to date tools so they can treat the kinds of patients that we've been talking about this morning. Doryn Wallach: Great. Well, I'm so happy to hear that. Honestly, I'd love to find a way to help. If there's anything in the world I could do, I just, I feel so passionate about this and I don't know. I obviously don't have the medical background, but at some point, I'd like to... That's why working at the Motherhood Center felt like I was giving back somehow. But now I'm assuming I can't go back and touch those cute babies because of COVID. Okay, so if you're okay with this, I have a few listener questions and was hoping you could answer them. So, the first question is I have been getting my diet and exercise regime in order, losing weight and inches. However, when attempting to sleep I am both sweating periodically throughout the night and shivering at the same time. Is this normal? And this is a 47 year old woman. She also said she's had one period in a year. Dr. Lee Cohen: That's a great question, and obviously I haven't examined this particular listener, or taken a full history. But in someone who sounds like they may be transitioning obviously, and maybe even in the latter part of the transition to menopause, what's interesting is to hear when I heard that vignette it is how variable the experience can be with respect to sort of night sweats or hot flashes. There are some women who have only night sweats, and in the other sense we have daily hot flashes, they have none. And then, the reverse is true as well. So, if the patient came to see me who was having symptoms of basso-motor difficulties at night, that were that disruptive to sleep, there are treatments for that. So, that would really be... That would sort of be the low hanging fruit because there are multiple treatments that can be used to treat basso-motor symptoms. So, that's sort of what comes to mind, and then as she shared sort of the changes in her cycle length and stuff, and I would have to take more history, this is someone who maybe even in the latter stages of the transition that we've been talking about. Doryn Wallach: What are treatments for hot flashes? I'm obviously not there yet, but that is a question that comes up over and over again. Dr. Lee Cohen: So, the two most common treatments for hot flashes from a pharmacologic point of view include the use of hormonal therapy for short term. After the women's health initiative data became available, there was a clear shift, and understandably so, for using hormone therapy for shorter periods of time. So, that's one option. And there's a very robust literature multiple groups have published, including our own, on the use of SSRI's and the so called SNRI's, drugs like [inaudible 00:47:12] marketed as Effexor, or the newer SNRI, [inaudible 00:47:17]. There are multiple treatments for hot flashes that have been demonstrated to be effective in controlled studies. And I wish I could tell you that we did a trial of yoga and we thought that yoga might be helpful for women with basso-motor symptoms. It really wasn't. Women liked it and they felt well on it, but it didn't really improve their hot flashes. And I also think again, as I mentioned before because I think it's so important, when I see the dollar spent on certain herbal interventions that are sort of clouted without data to be helpful in hot flashes. Doesn't it mean that it's absolutely not for anybody? No. There may be some women who benefit from it. But we just don't have the data to support that. But the specific answer to your question is for women who are having hot flashes that interfere with the quality of their life, we showed that low doses of SSRI's and also hormonal therapies are clearly effective. And I think the most important point, which I want to make sure that listeners hear is that this is independent of mood. So, we showed that, and others, multiple studies have shown that the antidepressant in non-depressed women, so it wasn't like you were just treating their depression. These were in non-depressed women, helped their hot flashes. And you could ask me, "So Lee, what's the mechanism of that?" I don't know. But what I do know is that they worked, and they worked in very rigorously done studies against placebo. Doryn Wallach: And is hormone therapy safe for women? Dr. Lee Cohen: So it seems what we could talk about today, I could respond to that by saying that I think the line in the sand that we saw almost now 20 years ago in terms of the vigilance about hormonal therapy, if you just look at community practice, has shifted back particularly for younger peri-menopausal women with hot flashes that are really getting in the way of their functioning. So, the issue of safety in terms of the particularly formulation and the duration of use is particularly relevant but I don't think that we're seeing the line in the sand about hormonal therapy that I think we saw immediately after the women's health initiative data were published, because following that there's just been just volumes of studies that have looked at those data, and then other newer data that have tried to sort of parse out the issue of for whom is hormonal therapy safe and effective and a viable choice for the treatment of basso-motor symptoms. Doryn Wallach: And another question, this woman said that she goes rounds with her doctors. She takes this hormone, and I tell them it makes me crazy. Where is the balance in solution? Is it going to get better, or worse once real menopause hits? I actually wonder the same thing because I have a friend who experienced much of what I'm going through, and she said, "Once my period was gone, I was totally fine." But then, my mother, my 73 year old mother last night just said to me, "Oh my god, I'm having the worst hot flashes." And I'm like, "What? You're still having hot flashes at 73?" Dr. Lee Cohen: That's a great question actually, and it is a mistake to think... because you really asked, Doryn, you really asked two questions there. One is a little bit about, hey, how long is this going to last? And, I think that we see the symptoms that we've been talking about this morning, the duration is highly variable patient to patient. But for example, in the case that you just mentioned of a woman in her 70s, it's not at all uncommon for women as they're sort of getting on a little bit into subsequent years of their life to still have persistence of hot flashes. The intensity, the frequency may change, but they're still having hot flashes. It's not as much as a woman who's 48 or 52 that you may see if you just look at the data on frequency of hot flashes in women of various ages. But, the point is that you can see women in their 60s and even early 70s where they were still having hot flashes. But I feel like it's an interesting point to maybe wrap with, which is that sort of what happens then when women are frankly menopausal? So, in frankly menopausal women, many of those women have sensation of hot flashes. I think that we still see some persistence of sleep disorders, sleep deregulation in women in their 60s and 70s after the transition to menopause. Since my focus on my work for over 30 years has been mood disorders in women, I will say that it's not uncommon to see recurrence of depression in women, as I mentioned, during their transition to menopause. But in women in their 60s and 70s, either nuance it or even recurrence of depression is exceedingly common and it's exceedingly treatable. So, I think that the area of management of depression in not just mid life women but in women who are sort of getting to the next stage of their life, I think it's extremely important the toll of depression on quality of life is huge. And I think that we have available treatments that can really eliminate suffering so that women, and frankly the men that we treat in our practices who suffer from recurrent [inaudible 00:52:25] depression, can live more comfortable and productive lives. Doryn Wallach: I know that we have to wrap up, and I know this is not your specialty, but I'm hoping that at some point, I think one of the biggest issues that women talk about is that they can no longer lose weight, no matter what their diet and exercise. And if you, at some point, have somebody who could speak specifically to that, I would love to have them on the podcast because I think it's an issue that keeps coming up over and over. And women are very frustrated about it. Dr. Lee Cohen: It's a huge issue, because you're really talking about sort of what are the metabolic changes that happen as actually both men and women get older? Is it indeed more challenging to lose weight? And I want to also mention that sometimes patients, as they get to mid life, may also be on some medicines that make it more or less challenging to lose weight. I think it's a huge issue, and one that has both medical consequences and also have consequences in terms of how people feel about themselves. So, it's a subject for another day. Doryn Wallach: Yes. Well, thank you so, so, so much for doing this. This is going to be huge for so many women. I just can't imagine that anybody won't find something from this that's going to be helpful. So, I really appreciate your time. I know you're a very busy man. And Dr. Cohen, are you taking new patients at the moment? Dr. Lee Cohen: Yes. At the MGH, whether you're a trainee or whether you're a division chief, sort of one of the maxims is that you never call yourself an expert unless you continue to see patients. So, the answer to your question is yes, I continue to see patients. I couldn't imagine doing the work that I do as a researcher, for example, without continuing to see patients. So, yes. And thanks very much for inviting me this morning. I've really enjoyed chatting with you. Doryn Wallach: Oh, you're very welcome. Thank you again. Thank you so much for listening. Remember to give yourself permission and know that you are not alone. Don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any episodes. Reviews are always appreciated and you can reach me by email at itsnotacrisis@gmail. Instagram, It's Not A Crisis Podcast. And please join our Facebook group as well. Until next time, just remember, it's not a crisis.